[Deck] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wcm8

I can think of numerous examples where the logic of going 'Draw Go' just because you have a Stifle in your starting hand is wrong. Let me just give you three such examples: 1) against Goblins where your removal spell in hand is sorcery-speed and they dropped a Lackey turn 1; against almost any combo deck where your alternative turn 1 option is to deploy a Delver and thus establish a clock; against UW Miracles where you have a Daze and can also drop a turn 1 Nimble Mongoose.
The theme here is often that Stifle gets progressively worse and worse on the Draw in comparison to being on the play, and that against many decks you need to prioritize establishing a Clock before you worry about Stifle. I would argue that your quoted 95% is far lower than reality. To list every single example of where the rule of thumb of going 'Draw Go' with Stifle in hand would be too exhaustive to attempt listing out in this thread. But I hope it's apparent why this is the case.

---

...Dude... Did you even read my post?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Blaze22

But in that particular case leaving yourself mana open for stifle will be the correct play 95% of times.

---

Back to the main discussion, the fact is that stifle loses value pretty fast so you want to "get rid" of it as soon as possible. stifle is an incredibly strong card in the first 1-3 turns and you want to get the max out of it to gain an advantage. An early stifle can have HUGE consequences through the course of the entire game. The best you can do to test this is playing some games against rug tempo, as I did. You will realize so badly how much that card does hurt your plans. even if you're able to connect some land drops after that, you will still be one mana behind vs a deck that plays dazes, wastelands and some number of pierces. You can't afford to waste the first opportunity to stifle opponent's fetchland as screwing the opponent is our main strategy to the victory.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wcm8

The decisions aren't necessarily more difficult, the problem is that Stifle forces you to pritoritize maximizing its value to the detriment of other lines of play. How powerful Stifle is is going to largely hinge upon unknown data: Are you going to win the die roll? Is your opponent's deck even one which is actually susceptible to it? Does he have a few opening plays that will get wrecked by it, or is going to deploy a bunch of basics and make holding up Stifle look stupid? Does this player know how to 'play around' Stifle and minimize its impact?

It doesn't necessarily make the player play poorly, it just leads to cases where playing it "correctly" force you into awkward scenarios. Sometimes you simply don't know what the correct line of play is due to unknown information. And as with almost every scenario, it depends a lot on the rest of the hand and the board state.

---

True - you have to balance with what the rest of the deck is, the likelyness of what the opponent can do to play around it - how much it hurts you,... Sometimes it is correct to just save your stifle for later or shuffle it away since your opponent is able to play around it well enough to hurt your tempo. The decisions are influenced by the MU, the opponent skill level, your other cards in hands and many factors - some of them as you said unknown. PLaying with what is "likely" to happen is a very important skill in magic and especially with cards like stifle and cabal therapy. Yes, it forces some awkward spots - they are awkward but does not mean there is no correct play.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wcm8

Conversely, Thought Scour and Spell Snare hold their respective value for much longer into the game, whereas Stifle can quickly become irrelevant.

If you're expecting a bunch of mirrors all day, then yes, by all means play 4 Stifle. But if your expected metagame has a healty amount of variety, I think you'll often find yourself often wishing you didn't.

---

Just not true. If you think your stifle is shit after Turn 3 maybe thats why you keep it open too often and screw up your game.
Most common game winning late stifles:
Stifle fetch #4+ to make daze a live card
Stifle fetch #n to screw up brainscentral recall and make your opponent draw again his shit.
Stifle Terminus or Entreat
Stifle Storm Trigger
Stifle Batterskull enter the battlefield effect.
Stifle Engineered Explosivs
Stifle liliana -2
Stifle cascade
Stifle the creation of Jitte counters
Stifle Snapcaster Mage come into play
Stifle Stoneforge come into play
Stifle Anihilator 6


If I read again that stifle loses it's value whereas thought-scour has always value my head will explode. Please wcm8, you don't want me dead right? :tongue:

Stifle is so fun! It does so many unexoected things! Dont forget snap caster triggers!
Oops you said it! Still a great card all the time!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wcm8

Using Decked (an app for iPhone I highly recommend), I generated some 7-card handers to consider. I didn't bother posting any of the ones with no blue sources, as those would obviously be mulligans. This was using the Saito list, and I think it'd also be good to perform this exercise again later with a list that incorporates 4 Stifles.

Keep or mulligan, and if kept what is the turn 1 play if you're A) on the play or B) on the draw against an unknown opponent who played a non-descript blue fetchland and passed. And a 3rd question C): is the play you'd choose to perform the only correct choice? why or why not?

1. mongoose, daze, FoW, ponder, tarmogoyf, tarmogoyf, volcanic island
2. delver, lightning bolt, daze, mongoose, misty rainforest, ponder, ponder
3. daze, volcanic island, bolt, spell snare, daze, wasteland, misty rainforest
4. FoW, scalding tarn, nimble mongoose, misty rainforest, delver, spell pierce, chain lightning
5. brainstorm, brainstorm, wasteland, volcanic island, chain lightning, spell pierce, misty rainforest
6. brainstorm, lightning bolt, tropical island, lightning bolt, misty rainforest, lightning bolt, spell snare
7. wasteland, ponder, volcanic island, wasteland, chain lightning, spell pierce, misty rainforest

---

1. Mull.
2. Always keep.
A&B T1 Delver, T2 Ponder
3. Borderline. I would be close to keeping this because I'm greedy.
4. Always keep.
A&B T1 Fetch Trop and cast Delver.
5. Keep
A&B T1 Volcanic, eot Brainstorm and dig.
6. Slightly sketchy keep.
A&B T1 Trop. Eot Brainstorm or T2 Brainstorm is fine (depending what opponent does).
7. Sketchy keep.
A. T1 Ponder
B. T1 Volc and pass. Or Chain lightning their DRS

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wcm8

Using Decked (an app for iPhone I highly recommend), I generated some 7-card handers to consider. I didn't bother posting any of the ones with no blue sources, as those would obviously be mulligans. This was using the Saito list, and I think it'd also be good to perform this exercise again later with a list that incorporates 4 Stifles.

Keep or mulligan, and if kept what is the turn 1 play if you're A) on the play or B) on the draw against an unknown opponent who played a non-descript blue fetchland and passed. And a 3rd question C): is the play you'd choose to perform the only correct choice? why or why not?

1. mongoose, daze, FoW, ponder, tarmogoyf, tarmogoyf, volcanic island
Keep in the dark, keep against most decks (would mull against decks with creatures and wastelands that are not gobilns) Keep both play and draw. Probably lead with ponder
2. delver, lightning bolt, daze, mongoose, misty rainforest, ponder, ponder
Keep all day every day against everything. Lead with delver into ponder against most things
3. daze, volcanic island, bolt, spell snare, daze, wasteland, misty rainforest
Not happy but keep...
4. FoW, scalding tarn, nimble mongoose, misty rainforest, delver, spell pierce, chain lightning
Keep all day every day all decks. Play delver then say go.
5. brainstorm, brainstorm, wasteland, volcanic island, chain lightning, spell pierce, misty rainforest
Keep, not happy.
6. brainstorm, lightning bolt, tropical island, lightning bolt, misty rainforest, lightning bolt, spell snare
Keep. not happy
7. wasteland, ponder, volcanic island, wasteland, chain lightning, spell pierce, misty rainforest

---

Keep

Basically i keep everything with a ponder or 2 lands and a brainstorm. The deck is very good at filtering draws so you can usually dig for stuff you need. I am not too happy about hands without threats against combo, and i will mull hands without threaths or cantrips, or hands that are exceptionally clunky.

On stifle. Playing stifle is very dependant on board states and matchups.

General rules of thumb:

1. Don't stifle your own play to hold up stifle. Deploying threaths is often more important
2. Don't hold up stifle if you are missing land drops. Drop those ponders to get to the right play-state

The moment where stifle is good is not turn 1. It is the turn where you waste them with a threath on board and pass holding up stifle to their few lands (depending on matchup)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Goddik

On stifle. Playing stifle is very dependant on board states and matchups.

General rules of thumb:

1. Don't stifle your own play to hold up stifle. Deploying threaths is often more important
2. Don't hold up stifle if you are missing land drops. Drop those ponders to get to the right play-state

The moment where stifle is good is not turn 1. It is the turn where you waste them with a threath on board and pass holding up stifle to their few lands (depending on matchup)

---

I actually like to side out Stifle if I know my opponent is going to play around it

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dewman

I actually like to side out Stifle if I know my opponent is going to play around it

---

With this logic, there's no reason to play Stifle in the MD, because people are always going to play around it as soon as they see anything that resembles Canadian Thresh (Tropical Island, Volcanic Island, Delver, etc.).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Goddik

On stifle. Playing stifle is very dependant on board states and matchups.

General rules of thumb:

1. Don't stifle your own play to hold up stifle. Deploying threaths is often more important
2. Don't hold up stifle if you are missing land drops. Drop those ponders to get to the right play-state

The moment where stifle is good is not turn 1. It is the turn where you waste them with a threath on board and pass holding up stifle to their few lands (depending on matchup)

---

Words of wisdom. Couldn't have said it better.
In addition to that my post from above: which basically says: don't be afraid to keep a stifle in hand while the opponent fetches early. Stifle keeps it's value.

Glad to have this high quality posts. Hope this ends the "Stifle gives you awkward situations & looses it's value" discussion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sigar

With this logic, there's no reason to play Stifle in the MD, because people are always going to play around it as soon as they see anything that resembles Canadian Thresh (Tropical Island, Volcanic Island, Delver, etc.).

---

I actually like this one better :P. But lets not get into that fight again. Lets just agree that people preffer different approaches to the same problem :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sigar

With this logic, there's no reason to play Stifle in the MD, because people are always going to play around it as soon as they see anything that resembles Canadian Thresh (Tropical Island, Volcanic Island, Delver, etc.).

---

But I found that I needed to punish my meta. So I played 4 Daze and 4 Stifle.

There are plenty of players that don't know how to play around Stifle + Daze

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dewman

But I found that I needed to punish my meta. So I played 4 Daze and 4 Stifle.

There are plenty of players that don't know how to play around Stifle + Daze

---

Or just cannot. Sometimes it's just impossible to play around Stifle + Daze without mulling to 5 and losing because you have less resources.

So... what are people playing in those last 2~3 slots in the maindeck? I've used to use Forked Bolt, when Maverick was a thing, but now it seems so bad. Maybe Fire//Ice could be a fine replacement, or even Chain Lightnings.

My list is pretty standard, as Canadian often plays itself.

4 Wasteland
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
2 Fire//Ice
SB: 3 Submerge
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Rough//Tumble
SB: 2 Divert
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Flusterstorm

Fire//Ice has been working fine. But it still lackluster. Maybe Chain Lightning is a better replacement.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sigar

With this logic, there's no reason to play Stifle in the MD, because people are always going to play around it as soon as they see anything that resembles Canadian Thresh (Tropical Island, Volcanic Island, Delver, etc.).

---

With this logic there is no reason to play Daze in the MB, because people will always play around it as soon as they see anything that resembles Tempo Thresh.

A friend of mine now plays Chain Lightning and tends to top-8 with it, so he's pretty content with that choice.

A friend of mine now plays Dismember and tends to win with it, so he's pretty content with that choice.

Joking aside, I still think that Dismember is the best option to be had. Though it cannot hit the opponent it handles so many problematic creatures like Goyfs, Germs and sometimes Knights. Obv it'll hit smaller creatures too making it a perfect addition to Lightning Bolt. Being Instant and castable from every land is a bonus too.

Greetings

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jin

With this logic there is no reason to play Daze in the MB, because people will always play around it as soon as they see anything that resembles Tempo Thresh.

---

...trollololol?

Playing around stuff still generates advantage, even if you don't have it in hand. Obvious, I know, just had to say it

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Einherjer

A friend of mine now plays Dismember and tends to win with it, so he's pretty content with that choice.

Joking aside, I still think that Dismember is the best option to be had. Though it cannot hit the opponent it handles so many problematic creatures like Goyfs, Germs and sometimes Knights. Obv it'll hit smaller creatures too making it a perfect addition to Lightning Bolt. Being Instant and castable from every land is a bonus too.

Greetings

---

I also like Dismember. Tempo Thresh has too many problems with Tarmogoyf to not play something that can remove it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning

...trollololol?

Playing around stuff still generates advantage, even if you don't have it in hand. Obvious, I know, just had to say it

---

I thought it was productive. His argument was a fallacy. I was just trying to point that out. Although I don't normally board out Stifles, I have heard that people have been successful with that strategy. Who are we to say this is wrong?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by catmint

Just not true. If you think your stifle is shit after Turn 3 maybe thats why you keep it open too often and screw up your game.
Most common game winning late stifles:
Stifle fetch #4+ to make daze a live card
Stifle fetch #n to screw up brainscentral recall and make your opponent draw again his shit.
Stifle Terminus or Entreat
Stifle Storm Trigger
Stifle Batterskull enter the battlefield effect.
Stifle Engineered Explosivs
Stifle liliana -2
Stifle cascade
Stifle the creation of Jitte counters
Stifle Snapcaster Mage come into play
Stifle Stoneforge come into play
Stifle Anihilator 6


If I read again that stifle loses it's value whereas thought-scour has always value my head will explode. Please wcm8, you don't want me dead right? :tongue:

---

Thought-scour always has value and stifle loses its value.

j/k.

Few more for the list:

Stifle Grislebrand trigger (trolololololol)
Stifle JTMS -1 (especially nice if they were counting on bouncing your Delver or Goyf).
Stifle RiP "enter the battlefield" ability.
Stifle Pernicious Deed (classic one).

Stifle never loses its value. It's a very skill-test card.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jin

I thought it was productive. His argument was a fallacy. I was just trying to point that out. Although I don't normally board out Stifles, I have heard that people have been successful with that strategy. Who are we to say this is wrong?

---

If you think people can play around Stifle and therefor board it out, it's a complete waste to run it in the MD in the first place.