Obviously Delver would have to be banned first before Mystical Tutor came off.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkenslight
Them Delvers are ruining everything.
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Obviously Delver would have to be banned first before Mystical Tutor came off.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkenslight
Them Delvers are ruining everything.
Yes, because consistent turn 2-3 Terminus and Show and Tell is exactly what we need right now :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by (nameless one)
Worse than screaming at the top of your lungs to preban Temporal Mastery?Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
The irony, it hurts.
Remember when all those people were screaming for Survival of the Fittest and Mental Misstep to be banned while saying Land Tax needed to be unbanned?
Yeah, I get tired of people discussing cards that should/should not be on the B&R list. They are wrong 95% of the time!
Quote:
Originally Posted by joemauer
Ever hear the saying " even a broken clock is right twice a day"? Land Tax was an obvious unban.
If Land Tax was so obvious, then why did it take so long for it's unban?Quote:
Originally Posted by rxavage
Was that meant to come across as immature and asinine? Repeat that question out loud to yourself, does it make sense yet? Why is the sky blue... neener neener neener:tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by joemauer
see how silly that is...
You know which card has an interesting ban history..? Entomb. When it came off, nobody was calling for its unbanning, nobody was saying it was safe. I think most people went 'holy shit reanimator is tier 1 again'? And it pretty much has been. Surprising no? Entomb gets unbanned.. really only played in one deck, a combo deck, where one player puts an overpowered creature into play so the opponent can't actually play the game. The only other deck I've seen it played in regularly is Lands and Loam Pox. Why did this card get unbanned? They didn't know about Karakas back then. And all the other methods of getting rid of a fat guy. Hell, they printed Iona shortly afterwards.
Dave Humphreys (spoken in the same manner as Matt Damon). More R&D shenanigans. Clearly they wanted it legal to print $30 foil boxed sets to sell to Timmy's.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vacrix
I assume you are trying to be sarcastic but even if you account for Misstep and Survival they are still wrong 95% of the time if not more. Just in the past 12 months... Show and Tell, Hive Mind, Griselbrand, Green Sun's Zenith, Temporal Mastery before it even became legal, Brainstorm, and all those cards had at least a small bandwagon. That's not even including stuff cards like Snapcaster Mage and Stoneforge Mystic and several others here and there that had detractors as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by joemauer
Just from S&T, Hive Mind, GBrand, GSZ, Temporal Mastery if we give credit for Survival and Misstep that's still a 71.5% miss rate. Now include all the cards I left off that list and go back some number of years and all of a sudden crediting the "ban" crowd with a 5% success rate actually starts to look really generous.
Talk to Wizards. If it were up to the community at large it never would have been on the banned list to start. Even back at the beginning of Legacy it was a joke.Quote:
Originally Posted by joemauer
Look obviously I was tongue in cheek about banning people who constantly ask for bannings. The main beef I have with the whole process is the idiocy that comes along with it. Does anyone remember when there were basically 3 threads going talking about how "OMG insane" Temporal Mastery was and a poll to petition Wizards to pre-ban it before it ruins Legacy? Oh and let's not forget this gem of a thread http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ht=griselbrand. Someone made a thread about how to metagame against Griselbrand decks like Reanimator and Sneak/Show and then it got derailed by people coming in and using it as a soapbox to complain about Griselbrand meanwhile in this thread people were saying stupid shit like "How is Griselbrand legal but Necro and Bargain are banned? Obviously it only makes sense to either ban Griselbrand or unban Bargain!!!1!"
In the end of course the real solution is just to moderate the hell out of people that advocate banning outside of the B&R update thread.
Why no, we wouldn't want people to speculate and/or complain in a thread specifically prepared for that purpose now. Preposterous.
Yeah my main beef is when it leaches it every thread. When the heat is on you can't even mention a "marked" card in a thread without people jumping in to derail the conversation with useless bullshit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinitium
Sometimes the cries for bannings gets out of hand like when they start to take over ever thread. I think it was the TES thread where somewhere said "I heard brainstorm may get banned soon". And Bryant Cook or someone else told him to gtfo.Quote:
Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes
Sometimes the cry for banning threads do produce something productive. In the ban Temporal Mastery preemptively thread it was quickly realized that the card would not be broken and perhaps not even playable in Legacy which turned out pretty true.
As for the why did it take so long to unban Land Tax question, that question was brought up because of my dislike for the DCI's handling of the B&R list. It was apparent that Land Tax and other cards should come off the list, but we just sit around each B&R announcement hoping our favorite exiled card(s) may return to our favorite format.
The mismanagement of the B&R list causes people to speculate/vent here. It is also fun to speculate what could be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by joemauer
Agreed but too often the speculation/venting devolves into what equates to monkeys throwing feces each other, and eventually Brainstorm.
The Temporal Mastery thread was the worst thread in the history of the forums. I asked people to prove the card was broken and had them seriously tell me, "You have to prove it's not broken," WUT? Also it's worth noting 41.5% of people voted "ban it before it breaks the format." Well, I hope those people enjoy their $120 playset of Masteries, lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by joemauer
I don't remember how I voted, or if I voted at all, but I remember people making outrageous claims about something you essentially have to lucksack into and can't repeat, saying that Mastery + Delver just broke the format in two and was teabagging it and putting the video on youtube. No one delivered on that particular promise. EDIT: Or rather, hilariously, Delver delivered, Mastery did not. Rofl rarities etc etc.
The pre-banning threads aren't the worst threads in the world; that one actually made me think about the mechanic and how it could or could not fit into decks, so it was a nice intellectual exercise that I probably wouldn't have bothered with in the first place. The problem is that some people are unwilling to have a rational discussion of power levels and impact when it comes to banning cards, and to resolve a discussion you basically end up either bludgeoning them into submission with massive amounts of typing and logic, or you both end up in a stare down thinking that the next 5k or two will prove you right, at which point you've forgotten the discussion and missed all chance to really learn anything. It's exhausting.
People are borderline retarded when it comes to internet and new stuff happening. These people are pursuing some non-existent fame they think will follow if they guess something right. These people have shown little to no reasoning and understanding behind their attempts to reach their goal.
Eternal formats have a huge card pool. People in general tend to evaluate themselves smarted than they are, and this is the same principle happening here. People quite ignorantly think they can handle this insane card pool and see all relevant interactions as soon as they see the first spoilers, and start crying without thinking that in time solutions will be found, or like in the case of Temporal Mastery, nothing ever happens outside anecdotal finishes and EDH nuts.
The problem is that this kind of behaviour is so god damn embarrassing that you would just want to kill your Source account just in order to not to be mistaken as one of those idiots.
I guess a large amount of the bullshit in the named threads comes from the lack to realize that formats work differently.
In terms of mastery i told peeps that a extra turn is Not a extra turn of the Same value while some users only hint to Vintage, the (obvious not the same) 1U cost and the Effect. The value of a turn in vintage is greater than in Legacy. Most should be only an additional attack Phase and a draw. It isn't hard to imagine that a vintage Deck with all the Tutors, oaths, Bobs, trygons, Jaces, tinker, y.will, fastmana, etc. Is able to do in an extra Turn.
Show and Tell: it's a 2-card-turn 2 or 3-combo. Stop compare it to goddamn tinker! Tinker is a One-card-first-turn-threat. This means that (unless S&T plays chrome moxen) you have at least 1 turn before they combo. This is a huge difference
Brainstorm: how many times i read ancestral recall in the b&r thread over the last 4 years only? CA +2 and card selection without CA are the same by today? enlightend. The often quoted "shuffle dead cards away is CA" as banning criteria is like saying "Knight of the Reliquary is CA because drawn additional lands can be transformed into wastelands! It's CA and a beatstick at once and all of that @ Turn 2 (obviously pointing to GSZ for arbor or hierarch)! Ban it!" or "fauna shaman turns your useless mana elves into verdant forces!"
LED: i make this a Short One and say that the reason it's restricted in vintage is yawgmoth's will only. No Will in Legacy -> LED is fine. Only will turns this into a Black lotus otherwise it's a very risky accelerator.
Discussing unbans of Necro, Bargain, Drain, etc.: please stop this bullshit. Read about their history and ... Just for a moment ... Use your brain before suggesting. How wouldn't Turn 3/4 Drain -> Jace -> mana Open for spell Pierce/Drain again become oppressive in legacy control? How wouldn't Necro/Bargain change the face of storm if you can build those Decks without caring for mana cost?
0.02$
Except that tinker is also sort of a 2-card combo...you do actually need an artifact down, and since the artifacts you'll likely be hitting are one of the Mox's (Chrome or diamond) alongside an ancient tomb type land, the number of cards required to go off is equal.
Mox (+pitch card), tomb, tinker = 4 <-- still more flexible, but still = cards.
Petal, tomb, show and tell, creature = 4
Furthermore, tinker targets are infinity times easier to deal with. The only real threat you're getting is blightsteel colossus or something. Anything you can get with it is still an artifact or a non-shroud-effect non-draw-7 cards with lifelink creature. They're just creatures that will one or two shot you. Lucky swords to plowshare is around and perma-deals with the threat and now they're left with nothing.
If Tinker was unbanned, for sure I think people would play it, but I doubt it'd be anywhere near as good as Show and Tell simply because A: people play enough free counters to delay it and B: Swords to Plowshare.
Not to mention, if you attempt to go off with tinker early, if it gets stopped you're pretty fucked. Say you go turn 1 tinker saccing a mox, the opponent swords it, now you have a 3 (soon to be 4) card hand, down a land drop or a blue spell. If you ever intend on actually protecting the combo you're likely not going to be able to with 4 cards.
The difference there is that show and tell can refill their hand or their new beater is shrouded from the most common types of removal. The only minor upside to Tinker here is that it's slightly more flexible to go off and you can't get nailed by karakas. Even then, on the sneak attack, an Emrakul wipes their board, Blightsteel Colossus -might- kill them if they don't have enough creatures down to absorb the blow.
Not to mention the dissynergy between Tinker and Sneak Attack. One wants them in your hand, the other wants them in the library, brainstorm only really does so much here. You now have two very different routes to go through between the two cards.
Tinker sounds a lot worse than show and tell if only because it's recovery plan is non-existent. It can't ride the back of an Emrakul to victory because Emrakul can't die and it can't refill it's hand in response to Griselbrand dying to try again. It sounds more like a one-trick pony and after you go for it you might as well scoop if they sword your dude and you have no force. Or if you're getting some janky artifact win, artifact removal is a thing, and will be rapidly if that non-creature artifact win method gets any sort of popularity.
Yeah they would not be tinkering Blightsteel, not in Legacy, it would be Inkwell Leviathan. There goes all the removal your opponent has for the first few turns, unless they have an edict effect, oh wait I am a blue deck and have free counters as well. Yeah Tinker does scary things, brings out scary large fatties, Inkwell and Sundering Titan come to mind, and all for the cost of running fast mana and/or tops. Seriously, you think Tinker is worse than Show and tell? You get to turn any artifact you have, even an artifact land, into a 7/11 islandwalk trample shrouded dude or 7/10 dude that blows up all of your opponents lands, on turn 2, or 3 if you want to maximize the damage. I am not sure many decks can handle anyone doing that reliably early with protection.