Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
New year, same pet deck. Time to revisit some stuff...
:u: :w: :r: vs. :u: :w:
Background: I've been a faithful proponent of the red splash for a looong time and still consider it legit, but stuff like that needs to be re-evaluated once in a while, even if the conclusion suggests to maintain what you've been rolling with.
I'm gonna be blunt and boil down the entire pros cons debate down to REB usefulness VS. manabase stability. That's what it actually comes down to since, Bloodmoon, Sulfur Elemental and Pyroclasm have been discarded by most smart people, and the difference between Disenchant and Wear/Tear is marginal.
For many, including myself, Flusterstorm would be the go-to replacement for REB - this is why: both offer a cheap way to interact, by countering cantrips, disruption and enablers. While REBs counter/kill Delvers, TNNs and Jaces (which is THE pro argument for the red splash btw), FS has both broader applications (counters non-blue spells) and more inevitability (storm copies).
So yeah the question to ask should be: "Would I favor FS + a better manabase over REBness?"
Obviously such evaluations are highly meta-dependent, which is why I'd like to base my thoughts on a mainstream spectrum of Q4's competitive environment, taking into account a range of top events:
RUG Delver (11.2%)
ANT (9.5%)
UWR Delver (8.6%)
BUG Delver (6.9%)
Death and Taxes (6.9%)
Miracles (6.0%)
DeathBlade (6.0%)
Sneak and Show (6.0%)
EsperBlade (5.2%)
Elves (5.2%)
Shardless BUG (5.2%)
(source: http://www.channelfireball.com/artic...game-analysis/)
So let's get down to business and apply the essential question to those MUs:
RUG Delver
Blue-based? --> Y // Wastelands? --> Y
Would I rather have Flusterstorms and more basics? --> Yes, since it's easier to safely assemble Supreme Verdict mana, counter their Stifles, and protect Terminus.
ANT
Blue-based? --> Y // Wastelands? --> N
Would I rather have Flusterstorms and more basics? --> Yes. FS is better Storm hate, period. Nifty play: keeping FS on top with Top to circumvent discard.
UWR Delver
Blue-based? --> Y // Wastelands? --> Y
Would I rather have Flusterstorms and more basics? --> Depends on whether they run Jace and/or Stifles. I guess: "undecided".
BUG Delver
Blue-based? // Wastelands? --> Y --> Y (most iterations)
Would I rather have Flusterstorms and more basics? --> Yes. Being able to counter Hymns is huge in this MU.
Death and Taxes
Blue-based? --> N // Wastelands? --> Y
Would I rather have Flusterstorms and more basics? --> Yes. REB does nothing here.
Miracles
Blue-based? --> Y // Wastelands? --> N (hardly every)
Would I rather have Flusterstorms and more basics? --> No. Being able to counter/destroy CB and Jace is golden here.
DeathBlade
Blue-based? --> Y (I'd say >50%) // Wastelands? --> Y
Would I rather have Flusterstorms and more basics? --> No: TNN & Jace.
Sneak and Show
Blue-based? --> Y // Wastelands? --> N (though some might bring in Moons)
Would I rather have Flusterstorms and more basics? --> Undecided: FS is superior in counter wars, which this MU sees a lot, but so-so towards the late midgame.
EsperBlade
Blue-based? --> Y // Wastelands? --> Y (I'd say 50%)
Would I rather have Flusterstorms and more basics? --> No: TNN & Jace.
Elves
Blue-based? --> N // Wastelands? --> N
Would I rather have Flusterstorms and more basics? --> Yes. REBs are useless, while FS serves as Glimpse hate.
Shardless BUG
Blue-based? --> N // Wastelands? --> N (hardly ever)
Would I rather have Flusterstorms and more basics? --> No: Ancestral Visions & Jace.
As expected there does not seem to be a clear winner, which is why I decided to give every "Y" & "N" a weight determined by the AVG meta percentage above.
RUG Delver --> Y (11.2)
ANT --> Y (9.5)
UWR Delver --> N (8.6) though this is not a clear "N" to me
BUG Delver --> Y (6.9)
Death and Taxes --> Y (6.9)
Miracles --> N (6.0)
DeathBlade --> N (6.0)
Sneak and Show --> Undecided (0) though I'd lean towards FS here.
EsperBlade --> N (5.2)
Elves --> Y (5.2)
Shardless BUG --> N (5.2)
________________________________
TOTAL: Y = 32.8 // N = 31
Conclusion:
I wouldn't have expected to switch from UWr to UW before finishing this post. Obviously some tournament experiences are needed to back up the switch.
In the meantime I'll do some tweaking, such as getting SCM back on board (who had been gone for quite some time), simply due to his nice synergy with FS.
Here's a first draft for reference:
4 BS
4 FoW
4 STP
4 CB
4 Top
4 Jace
3 EtA
2 SCM
2 CS
2 Verdict
2 Terminus
1 D. Sphere
1 Ponder
(37)
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Arid Mesa
1 Windswept Heath
4 Tundra
7 Island
3 Plains
1 Karakas
(23)
SB:
3 Fluster Storm
3 Pierce
3 RiP
2 Terminus
2 Clique
2 Disenchant
1 flex slot
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Ok, I think it's time for me to chime in and address some points that came up during the last pages. Strangely though I will argue against people I used to side with and vice versa. In any way, let's get straight to the point.
First of all let's turn to the Sneak-MU. Many correct things have been said, and you probably came to a conclusion already, but let me give you might point of view to this very topic. Sneak Attack has to be treated as a Combodeck, as a pure Combodeck. Do not plan on dealing with the creatures once they hit the battlefield. Yeah, we have all Terminused away an Emrakul G1 but this is not the way it should work. Game 1 is negative, we have way to many bad and situational cards while not representing a clock and...well you all know the problem. G2 and G3 on the other hand are considerably easier, we get Flusterstorm+REB for Show and Tell, allowing our mainboarded counters to focus on Sneak. Depending on the Sideboard you have access to disruptive creatures, be it Clique, Canonist or Meddling Mage. Terminus coms out, Verdict stays in case you don't have clearly superior cards. G2 and G3 are positive, but we can still get killed as soon as G2 where we do not have access to a useful Countertop or all our Counters. Don't think you are invincible. Generally you can adapt what JPA said in his Sneak-Primer, he knows what he is talking about - even though I dispatched his Sneak with Miracles at GP Strasbourg. I'd play against MonoU Omni any day of the week, compared to Sneak.
On the UWR vs UW - topic. Your analysis is probably correct. Besides a few flaws here and there it seems correct. But you have made an error, way before starting to execute your analysis. Your premises are choosen in a wrong way, as is the relationship between your conclusions. The question should never ever ever be Flusterstorm vs REB. Never ever. I am playing both of them, alongside each other. As of now 4 REB and 3 Fluster. The assumption that Flusterstorm would replace REB is wrong and therefore is your analysis. I am sorry.
Red Elemental Blast is better than ever. With a new blue creature running rampant in the format the Jace-Vindicate of times long past has been upgraded to a Counterspell, a Jace-Vindicate plus a Removalspell. Have you ever played postboard games vs UWR Delver? This MU feels like a BYE. Between 4 Swords 4 REB 3 Terminus 3 Supreme Verdict and 3 Snapcaster Mage to flashback it all back they rarely see the light of the day. But you might argue that staying UW comes hand in hand with the better Manabase. Probably. Better yes, far better? No. With a sideboarded Mountain REBs are being upgraded even moren - boarding now the full set of REBs vs any Tempodeck opens up new ways of approaching a MU, as we now have even fucking more Delverremoval, as well as additional counters - admittingly though - REBs don't protect our lands as well as Flusterstorms do.
I really see no reason as of now to not play Red, but well - I have never seen a reason not to, for about 2 years now or something.
Here is my list, I first posted it somethng about two or three months ago, only changing the REB/Pyrosplit ever since.
4 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
5 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
2 Arid Mesa
3 Counterbalance
1 Counterspell
3 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Terminus
1 Supreme Verdict
3 Entreat the Angels
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Ponder
1 Karakas
3 Scalding Tarn
SB: 3 Rest in Peace
SB: 4 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Wear // Tear
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 Supreme Verdict
SB: 1 Mountain
Greetings
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Einherjer
On the UWR vs UW - topic. Your analysis is probably correct. Besides a few flaws here and there it seems correct. But you have made an error, way before starting to execute your analysis. Your premises are choosen in a wrong way, as is the relationship between your conclusions. The question should never ever ever be Flusterstorm vs REB. Never ever. I am playing both of them, alongside each other. As of now 4 REB and 3 Fluster. The assumption that Flusterstorm would replace REB is wrong and therefore is your analysis. I am sorry.
I agree with Einherjer, while I think it is very important to constantly re-analyse decks like miracles and not just assume you have to run red, there are some serious flaws with your arguement based around flusterstorm vs REB. A lot of the matchups you analysed, I would want both REB and fluster (sneak, ANT) and some of them I would want neither (D&T). It is not REB vs flusterstorm, you can run both of those cards, I always have. The issue is, is 3 REBs worth having 1-2 non-basic lands in your deck that 90% of the time might as well just be islands? I think the REBs are worth it still, it is very rare that I naturally draw a volc and it would be better being a basic island.
As far as the sneak/show matchup is going. Im not sure what you people consistently losing to it are doing wrong. We have all the tools we need to beat it. G1 can be rough, but G2/3 you have to get very unlucky to lose usually. REB/Fluster and the threat of O-Ring/venser/karakas basically shuts down S&T game 2/3. All you really have to worry about is sneak attack resolving. Pithing Needles are something I usually run 2 of and they go long way. Meddling mages are also really good if you are having trouble with this matchup.
Cliques are also amazing in that matchup, they come down before they can cast sneak usually (and can tuck sneak away), you can play them in response to a S&T (or sneak activation), they cost 3 for balance, and most importantly they provide a fairly quick clock without tapping out.
As much as I hate turning creatures sideways, if your losing the sneak matchup, its probably because you arent running creatures like Venser, SCM, MM, or clique and are relying on resolving an entreat or jace in order to win.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Einherjer
The assumption that Flusterstorm would replace REB is wrong and therefore is your analysis.
Obviously this a fundamental difference in perspective, and I do see that since you've been running FS all along my approach makes little sense to you. FS is far from being core SB material. I don't have the time on my hands to do the research, but I'd be willing to bet that less than 50% of the UWr lists out there run more than 1 FS in their 75, and that most of the times REB clogging the SB is the main reason.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Einherjer
Red Elemental Blast is better than ever. With a new blue creature running rampant in the format the Jace-Vindicate of times long past has been upgraded
I let the Jace Vindicate argument count - this is the reason "No" was the answer in 2-3 of the given MUs above. TNN is a menace and he did have some impact on my train of thought, however I believe, Miracles is better fit than most decks out there to pummel him. Outside of regular counter magic most lists run 5-7 sweepers in their 75.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Einherjer
Have you ever played postboard games vs UWR Delver?
I find this MU favorable regardless of REB actually.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Einherjer
With a sideboarded Mountain REBs are being upgraded even more
After years of rocking UWr mainly for REBs I got to say the basic Mountain in the SB is indeed strong but at the end of the day more of a liability, occupying precious SB space when compared to UW SBs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Einherjer
I really see no reason as of now to not play Red
During the times when Lingering Souls ran rampant, Sulfur Elemental gave R some sexiness. When Weenie decks made a bigger impact Pyroclasm was a cute idea, when greedy BUG decks where all over the place Bloodmoon could win you rounds, BUT: none of these cards are feasible anymore. And that's the main reason I revisit the red splash in the first place.
Anyway only testing will tell what's cracking and in the meantime I'll indeed ask myself whether I'd rather have drawn an REB instead of a FS whenever I see one ;-)
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TheArchitect
As far as the sneak/show matchup is going. Im not sure what you people consistently losing to it are doing wrong. We have all the tools we need to beat it. G1 can be rough, but G2/3 you have to get very unlucky to lose usually.
Well, I havn't lost a match against Sneak Attack at any competitive event, nontheless serious testing proved the MU to be not as good as it may seem. Well I could say "yeah I beat all the Sneaks, easy MU guys" - but this would be wrong all along. Certain tournamentexperiences are useful, but not the end of all reasoning. Do serious testing with equally skilled pilots and standardized lists, and you will see what we mean by what we say.
Greetings
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
klaus
New year, same pet deck. Time to revisit some stuff...
:u: :w: :r: vs. :u: :w:
I like the analytical aspect of that post, it's pretty useful, regardless the point. Kinda of wish every comparison is done in that format. Now, I disagree with the argument. You seem to miss an obvious fact: splash red is not just for the blasts, it's ALSO for Wear//Tear. The difference between the 2 is Not marginal. Floating Wear//Tear with CB-T on the table is flat out superior than floating a disenchant.
1. Flusterstorm vs Blasts
2. Wear//Tear vs Disenchant
3. EE for 0 < 2, EE for 0< 3
Klaus analyzed point 1 in depth, but point 2 and 3 need further analysis as well, cannot overlook those.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
I like the analytical aspect of that post, it's pretty useful, regardless the point. Kinda of wish every comparison is done in that format. Now, I disagree with the argument. You seem to miss an obvious fact: splash red is not just for the blasts, it's ALSO for Wear//Tear. The difference between the 2 is Not marginal. Floating Wear//Tear with CB-T on the table is flat out superior than floating a disenchant.
1. Flusterstorm vs Blasts
2. Wear//Tear vs Disenchant
3. EE for 0 < 2, EE for 0< 3
Klaus analyzed point 1 in depth, but point 2 and 3 need further analysis as well, cannot overlook those.
I disagree, I think the wear//tear interaction is extremely minor. Its awesome when it happens, but disenchant on top with a top and CB in play is not much worse. Having wear//tear instead at that point wouldnt only put you in a slightly more awesome position.
I dont think flusterstorm vs REB is the issue. I run both and so do most other people. The issue is, is REB (and the minor advantages of having other SB cards) worth having a slightly weaker manabase? I think the answer is yes.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
You seem to miss an obvious fact: splash red is not just for the blasts, it's ALSO for Wear//Tear. The difference between the 2 is Not marginal. Floating Wear//Tear with CB-T on the table is flat out superior than floating a disenchant.
I thought Wear/Tear was going to be nuts, but I ended up cutting it for Disenchant, and then Explosives. Having to fetch Volcanic Island seemed terrible against UWR and Death & Taxes; same reason I'm not such a fan of REB. As someone pointed out, as well, the fact that it's a 1 as well as a 2 isn't so hot when you consider that if it's being floated, you probably are using a Top to float it.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cipher
I thought Wear/Tear was going to be nuts, but I ended up cutting it for Disenchant, and then Explosives. Having to fetch Volcanic Island seemed terrible against UWR and Death & Taxes; same reason I'm not such a fan of REB. As someone pointed out, as well, the fact that it's a 1 as well as a 2 isn't so hot when you consider that if it's being floated, you probably are using a Top to float it.
The Volcanic Island seems horrible against UWR is a separate argument. The intuitive respond is of course, run mountain instead.
I don't know if this ever happens to you: you can only produce one Mana source, maybe it's a fetchland, rest of your Mana sources are tapped. Then your opponent catches that moment to play Choke or Blood Moon. In this case, Wear//Tear has the easier Mana requirement.
Again, you have to look at the picture as a whole. Point 1, 2, and 3 together, along with match-ups across the board. As many have pointed out, you want your SB cards to be as versatile as possible. Taking out Blasts for Flusterstorm seems to be the opposite of that.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
@Einherjer
Do you have board plans posted at all? I like the board especially the full set of pyroblast.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Played Quad-Entreat feat. Tithe today in a local event today ... so good against Wasteland/Stifle/Spell Pierce.decs. The list was full of crazy lulz ... dropping an Akroma into a S&T facing a Griselbrand is hilarious.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
Played Quad-Entreat feat. Tithe today in a local event today ... so good against Wasteland/Stifle/Spell Pierce.decs. The list was full of crazy lulz ... dropping an Akroma into a S&T facing a Griselbrand is hilarious.
Why would you run Akroma?
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
klaus
Why would you run Akroma?
I did this for pure trolling in the first place and realized during the tournament how awesome the card could be if you can power it out with the help of Tithe.
Don't consider it a serious approach guys. ;)
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
I did this for pure trolling in the first place and realized during the tournament how awesome the card could be if you can power it out with the help of Tithe.
Don't consider it a serious approach guys. ;)
Post the list though.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Anyone else played against the 4 Color Deathbladebantdeck with 4 Daze, 2 JTMS, 8 Manadorks etc. and wants to share his experience?
It's a good deck in my eyes with sometimes high variance, you can be completely destroyed by their nutdraw and creaturebeatdown with Counterprotection. Also the 2 Jace are annoying.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I've been playing U/W Miracles and have been satisfied with my results:
Planeswalkers [4]
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Lands [23]
5 Island
2 Plains
1 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Mystic Gate
3 Tundra
2 Karakas
Artifacts [5]
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Helm of Obedience
Enchantments [8]
3 Counterbalance
2 Rest in Peace
1 Detention Sphere
1 Energy Field
1 Moat
Instants [15]
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
3 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Enlightened Tutor
Sorceries [5]
2 Entreat the Angels
3 Supreme Verdict
Sideboard [15]
4 Meddling Mage
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Humility
1 Misdirection
1 Force of Will
1 Rest in Peace
1 Disenchant
2 Oblivion Ring
I feel very well positioned versus the current meta. With the exception of decks playing Liliana of the Veil, I feel well positioned to counter or deal with the vast majority of threats. Moat has been an absolute powerhouse and very few decks can beat it once it resolves.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Adryan
Anyone else played against the 4 Color Deathbladebantdeck with 4 Daze, 2 JTMS, 8 Manadorks etc. and wants to share his experience?
It's a good deck in my eyes with sometimes high variance, you can be completely destroyed by their nutdraw and creaturebeatdown with Counterprotection. Also the 2 Jace are annoying.
Yeah, it was the first time I'd seen it, but I lost to this deck last week actually. Game 1 I lost to a bad land draw coupled with SFM and Nemesis. Game 2 I resolve Moat and proceed to lose to his Jace. Neither of my hands/draws were that great, but I can see how the deck could be difficult to fight because of its multiple fronts. Overall, it likely doesn't play out much differently than Stoneblade except that it trades some of its late game for a light tempo package.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
You seem to miss an obvious fact: splash red is not just for the blasts, it's ALSO for Wear//Tear. The difference between the 2 is Not marginal. Floating Wear//Tear with CB-T on the table is flat out superior than floating a disenchant.
Also, I've been a little... disenchanted with Wear//Tear recently. haaar har
Despite quite a few upsides, having to fetch Volcanics to destroy artifacts with Wear//Tear can be a real downer against Wastelands. I think I'll go back to Disenchant for now and see if I really miss the potential 2-for-1s and cheaper Choke-removal.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
@ mini
I don't want to be rude, but honestly every RIP list is strictly inferior to a non RIP List with Cliques and/or SCM.
But this really shows how powerful the Miraclearchetype is, you can dilute the majority of your Maindeck, but if the core of the deck remains somehow intact you still have a good deck.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Disagree strongly. Access to cards like Moat and Energy Field via E-Tutor is huge. Being able to Tutor for a Top when necessary is also big game. Being able to use your engine to randomly win the game is not to be taken lightly.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I love Enlightened Tutor. I don't think MD RIP is the way to go at the moment. Also, despite how disappointing and swingy Blood Moon has been in the past, I have to admit that it single handily won me two matches today, both against Shardless (one splashing Red for Bloodbraid and Punishing Fire).
