Miracle Control

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Originally Posted by Trei_gamer

I have finally acquired all the cards for Miracles (both builds)

What would be the best build for a meta game that is primarily Omnitell, BUG (delver and shardless), and Lands?

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Clique wrecks combos, pressure Liliana, and you can Clique away Loam in Lands. I would start with the Legend-Ponder build without Wastelands from GP Kyoto winner, then gradually work toward Lossett's Legend build if I were you.

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Originally Posted by twndomn

I feel like I'm a copy-paste machine. Just follow that miracles guy:

The UWR dilemma:

In recent time there has been an enormous upswing in UWR colored decks. Previous to Treasure Cruise there were practically two UWR colored decks, being Miracles and Patriot with the MU between these two being hilariously lopsided. Miracles was favored by a huge amount of percentage points. Things have changed, however. Despite URs prevelance in numbers it appeared to be UWR that was best suited for TC, not only due to its kind-of-edge in the kind-of-mirror against UR. So now we have UWR dominating the numbers, and nobody can tell you whether this will stay or not. Maybe it's just a popularity issue and the decks aren't that good? Well, that's not the point now. We now have the following decks that utilize Volcanic Island and Tundra.

1) Miracles
2) Gold Digger
3) Stoneblade
4) Pyromancer Midrange
5) Patriot


These are the 5 general directions that you can take in the modern metagame, each and every giving you a distinct advantage in one special field. I will not talk about how to play the Mirror nor will I touch on Patriot, as these approaches didn't really change and are still rather easy to execute. This leaves us with Gold Digger, Stoneblade and Pyromancer Midrange to talk about. These decks differ greatly on the surface, but aren't that much different when it comes to actually playing them. Let's see what they share before developing sideboard ideas:


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This is a very good analysis.
I quote your post.

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Originally Posted by twndomn

The plan

So how do you board against any of these UWR decks? Well, I am not going to give you a plan for these three decks, because they don't exist in a nutshell. What I will give you are my opinions on how to board when you see something. You should then be able to put together a decent boarding plan against the UWR opponent that you will encounter.

1) Counterbalance
Is good against any of these decks as it will allow you to do two things: a) Generate card advantage to combat Delve spells. b) Slow down the game. This is all we need and synonymous with winning.
Don't board this card out.

2) Swords to Plowshares
The card is a necessary evil if your opponent plays more than just Stoneforge Mystic plus a handful of Snapcaster Mage, Vendilion Clique and/or True Name Nemesis. Should they go with these cards above you are fine with 4 Terminus 1 EE and 1 Pyroclasm. If you are, however expecting Young Pyromancer alongside these cards you need to keep Swords to Plowshares in. All of them because Terminus would work overdue if you didn't.

3) Blue Elemental Blast
While bringing in Blue Elemental Blast in order to counteract Red Elemental Blast is no bad idea it's not what we want to be doing in this very match-up.

4) Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Can be trimmed to 2 if you suspect the opponent to have Daze. Other than that, keep all of them.

Okay, changed my mind, I'll try to give a very basic idea on how to board vs UWR.

-4 Force of Will
-2 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Red Elemental Blast
+1 Pyroblast
+1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Pyroclasm
+1 Wear//Tear
+1 Council's Judgment

If it's Gold Digger, cut the Swords and the Plains for Counterspell and Flusterstorms. Also make Room for Cliques by not bringing in Pyroclasm and trimming Terminus.

If it's Young Pyromancer based, don't cut the Swords. Cut the Counterspell and one Jace, the Mind Sculptor instead.

If it's Stoneforge Mystic Control based you might decide to leave it at that (and as I see this version as the most popular one I posted the plan above). If it's controlled Stoneblade you can cut the Plains and the Pyroclasm for 2 Cliques. Depending on whether you expect Young Pyromancer or Counterbalance.

If you think that they'll bring Counterbalance, make sure to include Vendilion Clique.

I know it's tough, but I hope that these guidelines help you board correctly as soon as you've taken a decision on what the opponent is. If unsure, go with the boarding plan above.

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- Imho Counterbalance is one of the best cards in all this UWR matchup: mirror, patriot, digger, pyromancer plays low mana curve (CC 1 or 2). Blade have much CC3 maindeck (Vendilion, Nemesis, Judgment). In every situation if we resolve Counterbalance, we can take the time to get the right cards to make our plan.

- Swords to plowshares is a good card. Some gold digger play maindeck Monastery Mentor in g2 and, waiting Terminus, if we don't remove it, we lose the game?

- BEB: i don't play it

- Jace: i normally play 2 copies ad it's a win-con vs control deck.
I don't like to cut it but if they play a Pyromancer.deck (Young, Delver and friends), Jace have some trouble....too much difficult to defend it?

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Originally Posted by AnziD

Using Ein's 75, here are the cards I would consider taking out:

-4 Terminus
-X Plow
*-1 CJ
*-2 Counterspell
*-1/2 DTT

The cards I would like are:

+1 FOW
+1 Disenchant
+2 RIP
+1 EE
*+X Clique

Game plan:
0) Not die to Marit Lage
1) Establish CounterTop with cmc 2 on board
2) Resolve Jace/Entreat

* denotes I am not sure. Admittedly, it is for most of the cards.

Sideboarding out thoughts:

Removal - We definitely don't need 8 pieces of removal postboard to handle their Marit Lage. Terminus is substantially weaker than STP in that it requires us to have Top in play and also makes our CounterTop lock (if established) vulnerable. Also, Terminus loses to Wasteland-fetch shenanigans (ie they Waste a fetch in response to tapping Top). Four swords are not necessary because we are not planning on casting it that frequently. More likely than not, the opponent will cast Marit Lage at most twice due to CounterTop locking them out of recurring Loam. We don't need four copies of STP to kill 2 or 3 of their dudes, especially since we have Snapcaster to flash them back if needed. It should be noted that some Lands sideboards include cards like Dark Confidant or Thalia. In this case, we want to keep some extra removal - board accordingly.

*Council's Judgment - I spoke with lots of Lands players and they said that generally Council's Judgment is subpar because they will be actively porting our more limited color - W. It is not necessarily correct, but in my testing I have found that I am unable to cast the card as reliably due to the WW burden. Additionally, postboard the Lands player will be bringing in lots of Sphere effects, making the card even harder to cast.

*Counterspell - I feel very mixed about this card. On the play there's a potential argument to it, but it seems that the "crucial" turn for the Lands player is t1. From Exploration to Manabond to Sphere in G2, they are usually gunning these cards in their very first turn (potentially with the aid of Mox Diamond). On the draw it seems kind of silly to leave yourself susceptible to this, and even on the play it's not necessarily guaranteed to work. But perhaps it is naive to think of the matchup in terms of only worst case scenarios, so I could definitely see leaving this in.

*Dig Through Time - We're boarding in RIP. Not sure how many copies of this you want postboard as there's conflict. Can leave one or none in, depends on what you decide to bring in.

Sideboarding in thoughts:

*Vendilion Clique - I think the only card that requires discussion is Clique. There are several advantages to Clique, of which are most important are sniping Loam and blocking Marit Lage. Earlier I said Clique was the weakest of the cards you were bringing in, but I definitely think it is still strong enough to have in some numbers. Being able to block Marit Lage is crucial because it gives us a chance to untap with white mana. Note that even if we have CounterTop out, we can still lose to them naturally drawing Dark Depths, which I think they board an extra copy of against us.

So concluding everything, here's what I would recommend you start testing with:

-4 Terminus
-1 Plow
-1 CJ
-1 DTT or -1 CS

+1 FOW
+1 Disenchant
+1 EE
+2 RIP
+2 Clique

If you think Council's Judgment is strong enough to keep, then you would probably want an additional copy. So your boarding might look like this:

-4 Terminus
-1 Plow
-3 DTT/CS

+1 FOW
+1 Disenchant
+1 EE
+1 CJ
+2 RIP
+2 Clique

So here are the questions I leave for discussion:

a) How do we the strength of Council's Judgment, Counterspell, and Dig Through Time postboard?
b) How do we rank the power of these cards to determine which to take out?
c) What do you guys disagree with in what I've written and why?

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This is a good write up. Counterspell has the upside of being a 2 drop for loam but the downside of being really really slow in this matchup. I am inclined to keep 1 dig in. This is a long game, and gys are going to fill. DTT is very good at helping you find a rip or a cb, whichever you are missing or value more, but because of rip we definitely don't want both.

I agree with ww for CJ. Against a good lands opponent you'll never see it. You gave as good of an answer at instant speed in disenchant.

I agree with what you've said. I think there is nothing we can remove with other cards that make cj a requirement.

My thought with clique were the same, a blocker and disruption, given so much of their game plan relies on loam.

I'll carry this forward with me in my testing.

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Originally Posted by twndomn

Clique wrecks combos, pressure Liliana, and you can Clique away Loam in Lands. I would start with the Legend-Ponder build without Wastelands from GP Kyoto winner, then gradually work toward Lossett's Legend build if I were you.

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Legend-Ponder? So the GP Kyoto build but maybe without the Wastelands?

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=83956

This looks like what was being talked about.

I have been playing a Ponder/Legends hybrid list for a while now. Pre-GP NJ I played 2 ponder and legends (well clique at least) for about a year, I played traditional 4 ponder list for the cruise era and now I am back to 4 ponders 2 snaps, 2 cliques and its been awesome again. I dont travel to SCG sized events often but the deck has definitely payed for itself by placing at local 30-50 man 1ks, and the few large events I have been to with miracles so I would say its been working pretty well for me.

Its really the best of boast approaches.

Here's the list I have been running lately:
1 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
1 Karakas
2 Plains
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island

4 Brainstorm
1 Council's Judgment
4 Counterbalance
2 Counterspell
1 Dig Through Time
2 Entreat the Angels
3 Force of Will
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus
2 Vendilion Clique

Sideboard:
2 Containment Priest
1 Council's Judgment
1 Disenchant
1 Force of Will
2 Meddling Mage
1 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Spell Pierce (Could be flusterstorms, but I like pierce more right now)
1 Venser, Shaper Savant (I don't always play him)
1 Blood Moon (this works as Lands/Jund hate much better than RIP, it also happens to be good vs infect or shardless)

Well guys, my report will probably be a little longer coming down the pipe line than I thought. I just emailed a pitch to Eternal Central to publish my report since Ein recommended I do so. If my pitch gets approved I will make another post once the article is up. That might be a while too since I'm quite busy with the end of school atm...

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Originally Posted by presquepartout

the 14th place Miracles deck went deep -- 3 Monastery Mentor, 1 Cavern of Souls, the legends package in the board, as well as a Magus of the Moon in the sideboard!

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It's not a Miracles deck; it's Mentor Control.

Dragonslayer:
Why did you slam a Snapcaster Mage against Sean game 1, and why did you then dig so hard to protect it from Swords to Plowshares?

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Originally Posted by TheArchitect

...
<hybrid list>
...
Sideboard:
2 Containment Priest
1 Council's Judgment
1 Disenchant
1 Force of Will
2 Meddling Mage
1 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Spell Pierce (Could be flusterstorms, but I like pierce more right now)
1 Venser, Shaper Savant (I don't always play him)
1 Blood Moon (this works as Lands/Jund hate much better than RIP, it also happens to be good vs infect or shardless)

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I was looking over this list wondering how you had room for everything in the board, and then realized you don't have a single piece of graveyard hate... how has that been working out? Is it a local meta thing or do you think this is okay with the current state of legacy?

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Originally Posted by RogueMTG

I was looking over this list wondering how you had room for everything in the board, and then realized you don't have a single piece of graveyard hate... how has that been working out? Is it a local meta thing or do you think this is okay with the current state of legacy?

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I guess the idea is that Containment Priest and Blood Moon between them handle most of the matchups that you'd otherwise bring in Graveyard hate against; Jund, Lands, Re-animator, Dredge, etc. The fact that it pseudo-shuts down a bunch of other decks like BUG, and that people are likely to board out any removal for your Priests, is just gravy.

Edit 2: Answered my own question

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Originally Posted by PhyrexianLibrarian

I guess the idea is that Containment Priest and Blood Moon between them handle most of the matchups that you'd otherwise bring in Graveyard hate against; Jund, Lands, Re-animator, Dredge, etc. The fact that it pseudo-shuts down a bunch of other decks like BUG, and that people are likely to board out any removal for your Priests, is just gravy.

Edit 2: Answered my own question

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Pretty much. Honestly the moon isnt even needed. Theres basically no lands in my area but it kinda helps vs jund, infect, deathblade and shardless which I do see. Since GP NJ I have just been playing the containment priest and no moon or GY hate. The combo decks I have played against most since then have been elves and reanimator by a very large margin. Priest is way better than RIP in both of those matchups.

Rogue MTG, you should read back the past few pages as we have been discussing this. Here is my post on the matter:

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Originally Posted by TheArchitect

I have just been playing containment priest over RIP since it was released and have not missed RIP. Vs every GY combo matchup, having a RIP with flash, that doesnt mess up our snaps and digs AND attacks for 2 is a godsend. Also, this card hoses S&T and elves. Its really a no brainer.

The matchups where you want to bring in RIP is lands, RUG and jund. All the other decks, having priest is better. Vs RUG or lands you can win without GY hate, its just nice to have. Both matchups are totally winnable without GY hate. Vs jund answering pfire is a must and CB is not reliable. That is pretty much the only downside of RIP over priest.

If you really want GY interaction vs lands or jund that doesnt mess up our own cards, play 1-2 surgical or blood moon in addition to 2 priests. Honestly though, I don't think that is even needed.

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To reemphasize, no offense to players I do infact respect, but playing RIP over priest is a big mistake.


MTGRogue made me think about something that is worth discussing though. Its a more board topic that specific to miracles, but as a control deck it definitely applies a lot here: Be open minded and think critically about all your card choices. If you are unwilling to do this, just copy/paste some experts 75 since he/she probably did all the work for you. But if you want to actually improve the deck, for your own meta or in general, you need to critically evaluate all card choice, and not rely in preconceived notions. There is not some rule that says "you must play 2-3 GY hate cards", "Red blasts are only SB cards", "all your counterbalances must be in your maindeck", or "you must play over 16 cards and 4 FoW in your blue deck". Most of the time the preestablished way of doing things is popular for a reason: its the best way to do it. But this is not always the case.

It is very important that you do not misconceive this as meaning you should throw whatever cool stuff you want into your deck. Yes, Ruination hoses 12 post, and Keranos is hard for BUG to kill, but how much do these cards actually help your chance of success overall? Are there cards that could fill those slots that could give you a better chance of success? Probably.

Must be a regional thing. In my area, there is a lot of Jund, Lands, RUG and BUG, and the combo decks of choice are Elves and ANT/TES/Spanish Inquisition. I haven't seen anyone playing Sneak & Show or Re-animator in a long time. For me personally Containment Priests are a lot less relevant than RIP, but I can totally see the meta shifting to where that would be reversed.

I'm sticking with my 1/2 split of Keranos/Clique, though, I can't help myself :P

So, there is a lot of MUD and one or two 12-post players in my area, what do you guys recommend putting in the board to assist with the matchup. I know the matchup is not so great, but anything to help would be greatly appreciated.

Back to Basics is the most devastating sideboard card you can have for decks playing Cloudpost. However, it is extremely narrow, and probably not recommended for a field wider than just you, MUD, and 12 Post.

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Originally Posted by skyout

So, there is a lot of MUD and one or two 12-post players in my area, what do you guys recommend putting in the board to assist with the matchup. I know the matchup is not so great, but anything to help would be greatly appreciated.

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If you read back through this thread you will find that someone asks this basically every other week and we have the same arguements every time.

Ruination is the best card against 12 post. Back to basics and blood moon rarely work as well as you think they would. Playing fast creatures like mentor or giest help too. Against MUD, stuff like council's judgment, counterspell, terminus help and the matchup is not too bad if you play well. Unless "your area" consists of like 10 people your best bet is to just ignore the 12 post matchup. Even adding hate cards does not significantly improve the matchup and any hate cards you are super narrow and lower your rate vs everything else.

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Originally Posted by Malakai

Dragonslayer:
Why did you slam a Snapcaster Mage against Sean game 1, and why did you then dig so hard to protect it from Swords to Plowshares?

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Hi there. I apologize in advance if some of the details of my response are fuzzy. I didn't take any notes so I'm doing this strictly from memory: Game One Sean mulled to 5. Then he Force of Will'ed my Turn One Top to further mulligan his hand. Granted, there might be an argument to be made for doing that (though I think I ultimately disagree with that play), but he quickly got punished for doing so since I just drew another Top on my first draw for the game (I was on the play since I was the higher seed). At the point where I had gotten my snapcaster down I am pretty sure I had gotten counter top established so it was a matter of me trying to close the game out. Me "digging so hard to protect it" seemed fine because I had counter top so it's actually not so hard to protect it. If I did not have that setup I would have not dug so hard to protect snapcaster. In short, because I started with such a huge advantage early on I played more aggressively than usual to push my advantage because there was not much card trading to be done in the early stages of the game.

Now, this is something that's hard to discern over the internet, but If you've made a judgment about me as a player for making a play that seems fundamentally wrong without all sufficient context of game state and such, I'd request you reserve your judgment instead. Not only is this act just relatively shallow, but it shows an unhealthy inflexibility in playing the game. For pretty much any deck, there are certain principles to be said about them. But these principles are just guidelines, not absolutes. Sometimes you need to make counter-intuitive plays contrary to what you've been taught to win certain games. I don't mean to come off high and mighty, but I just really hate when people jump to conclusions about players based on plays they think are wrong but might actually be right because it's ultimate not fair when you are not actually playing the game and probably have more perfect information than either opponent. If you have any other questions or thoughts about my plays in that tournament do let me know.

A number of decks in recent weeks (mostly slower, legends-style builds) have been packing some number of Spell Snares, Spell Pierces, and Pyroblasts in the MD either in addition to or in lieu of Counterspell and Council's Judgment. Is the idea here that because these decks play more 3- and 4- drops in Clique and Venser (in addition to JTMS), they simply can't afford to also play Counterspell and Council's Judgment and need to play more situational answers? I ask, because I am playing a list with five MD creatures (2x Snap, 2x Clique, 1x Venser), 4x WinCons (2x JTMS, 2x Entreat), and 2x Digs as my large spells, and have between 2 and 3 slots to dedicate to some number of these "answers." What split makes the most sense to combat the legends build's weaknesses?

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Originally Posted by PhyrexianLibrarian

Must be a regional thing. In my area, there is a lot of Jund, Lands, RUG and BUG, and the combo decks of choice are Elves and ANT/TES/Spanish Inquisition. I haven't seen anyone playing Sneak & Show or Re-animator in a long time. For me personally Containment Priests are a lot less relevant than RIP, but I can totally see the meta shifting to where that would be reversed.

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Priests: GSZ, NO, Vial, Lackey, Reanimation spell, Show and Tell, Dreaded Return, Ichorid

RiP: Reanimation spell, Dreaded Return, Ichorid, PFire, Loam, Past in Flame

I would attempt to draw an analogy to the Venn Diagram, with graveyard being the left Circle. Naturally, RiP would cover the entire left circle. Priest would cover the right circle. Hence, cards they both hit would naturally be the intersection. They are different tools, with occasional interchangeable purpose.

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Originally Posted by BioEBear

A number of decks in recent weeks (mostly slower, legends-style builds) have been packing some number of Spell Snares, Spell Pierces, and Pyroblasts in the MD either in addition to or in lieu of Counterspell and Council's Judgment. Is the idea here that because these decks play more 3- and 4- drops in Clique and Venser (in addition to JTMS), they simply can't afford to also play Counterspell and Council's Judgment and need to play more situational answers? I ask, because I am playing a list with five MD creatures (2x Snap, 2x Clique, 1x Venser), 4x WinCons (2x JTMS, 2x Entreat), and 2x Digs as my large spells, and have between 2 and 3 slots to dedicate to some number of these "answers." What split makes the most sense to combat the legends build's weaknesses?

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Personally I feel you're mixing up lots of things together. MD Red Blast effect has been done in a long time, more so during Treasure Cruise era. Long story short, Red Blast and StP are competing for the same slots. The same competition occurs for the Snapcaster vs Clique slots. The recent trend coming from GP Kyoto is that people have been trying both instead of leaning one way or another. When you lean on Snapcaster, you want more Ponder. When you lean on Clique you want less Ponder and you can replace the slot with cards like more Dig, more SS/SP/Red Blast/Venser. This all depend on where you stand in a broad spectrum.

I've been saying that you can do both for months. Since Miracles can be highly customized, just run the build that works for you. For me, if I don't MD Clique, I cannot defeat Blade decks. If I don't run Ponder, the clunky openings would just get me. I run something very similar to TheArchitect's latest list but with 22 lands.

After seeing the top 8 list playing two Wasteland in Kyoto, I'm very tempted to play some Wastelands at my local at some point given the high percentage of post-based decks. It may not be good, but I will win at least a single game against post, damn it! One time dealer! :tongue:

Back in the world of reality, how does everyone feel about the Terminus numbers floating around? I've seen anywhere from two to four, sometimes supplemented with a Supreme Verdict in the main deck. I feel as though Terminus is definitely one of the least impactful cards when it isn't useful, but I'm not sure how I feel having only three against some of the more aggressive creature-based decks in the format. I'm trying to solidify a list to start testing for SCG Worcester and am a bit rusty having not played a real legacy deck in... quite a while.

I prepare my deck for a local tourment on next saturday.

What do you guys think: Is Moat a valid option for the SB in the current Meta? If so: What card should I replace with it? (Using Ein's list) 3. Clique? CJ? :confused:

I've seen this here over and over again. People asking/using for someone's exact 75. Why are you guys over and over again copy pasting someone's list? I mean why aren't you just find your own list? It doesn't make much sense copying someone's list because their list are fitted on their playstyle and preference. So just sit down and build your own list which fits for your own playstyle. And if you're just to lazy to build your own one, then you have not understood this game imo. Just my 2 cents.

Hello,

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Zodiac_Dragon

I prepare my deck for a local tourment on next saturday.

What do you guys think: Is Moat a valid option for the SB in the current Meta? If so: What card should I replace with it? (Using Ein's list) 3. Clique? CJ?

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For a German tournement I would sugest to leave moat out of you Sideboard and prepare for Combo and Control Decks. If you want something against creatures I sugest Humility since its deals with the most problematic creatures but in General both are just to clunky to play.

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index
I've seen this here over and over again. People asking/using for someone's exact 75. Why are you guys over and over again copy pasting someone's list? I mean why aren't you just find your own list? It doesn't make much sense copying someone's list because their list are fitted on their playstyle and preference. So just sit down and build your own list which fits for your own playstyle. And if you're just to lazy to build your own one, then you have not understood this game imo.

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This is easy. The reason why people are coping the list is that with some minor adjustments it is the best list you can get for the given deck. The current Miracles list is incredibly consistent and as such there is not much room to improve. So as a result if you want to play the best possible list you copy it becaue chances are high that you selfbrewed list is worse than the published ones.

Btw after testing I sugest to play 3 digs not only 2.. Also3 Snap Casters are not needed. They are to clunky at the start and a a bad topdeck if you just played dig the turn before.

Best regards Teveshszat

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Originally Posted by index

I've seen this here over and over again. People asking/using for someone's exact 75. Why are you guys over and over again copy pasting someone's list? I mean why aren't you just find your own list? It doesn't make much sense copying someone's list because their list are fitted on their playstyle and preference. So just sit down and build your own list which fits for your own playstyle. And if you're just to lazy to build your own one, then you have not understood this game imo. Just my 2 cents.

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Because not everyone can devote a large amount of time to testing and sometimes a stock list can provide someone who plays infrequently a tuned option with less effort? I know I'd rather have a proven list than something I theorycrafted, and I copied successful lists for a long time as a way to really understand how the deck works and to appreciate the value of any options I have in deck construction.

If I'm OK with knowing that I'm not the best player, why add an unnecessary step to the already steep learning curve of the deck?

EDIT: (Adding to post to avoid double-posting)

For anybody trying a sideboard Cavern of Souls in the legendary build - what do you think of playing a Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir out of the board? Previously I found it too slow to matter against most decks in the format, but right now it seems the number of Miracles and OmniTell decks is pretty high. Against the mirror you can resolve your Jace without contest and turn every counterspell into Last Word, against Omni if you use Cavern to cast it they are forced to Cunning Wish on the spot or during their main phase to get Wipe Away (which might not even work if you've set up Counterbalance lock), and against Shardless BUG it can shut down Cascade and is difficult to kill outside of Liliana of the Veil and Maelstrom Pulse. The downside to it obviously being that it costs a lot of mana, and you can cast more generically powerful spells at that point on the curve.

OK here's a weird one; does anyone know the Stax matchup well? I'm in a league and my next match is against a really weird brew running Trinisphere/Smokestack/Chalices, but also Nyx-Fleece Ram and a Stoneforge package with no Jitte and 3 Batterskulls? I can post a decklist if anyone wants to see it, but it's such an odd setup I'm not really sure whether to treat it like a Stoneblade deck or a Prison deck.

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Originally Posted by PhyrexianLibrarian

OK here's a weird one; does anyone know the Stax matchup well? I'm in a league and my next match is against a really weird brew running Trinisphere/Smokestack/Chalices, but also Nyx-Fleece Ram and a Stoneforge package with no Jitte and 3 Batterskulls? I can post a decklist if anyone wants to see it, but it's such an odd setup I'm not really sure whether to treat it like a Stoneblade deck or a Prison deck.

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It depends on the build. His sounds like it might be an easier matchup for miracles. A local guy here plays it with 4 Haunted Platemail, elspeth and Manlands as the win cons and I am like 0-6 vs it.

EDIT: and he has maindeck armegeddons.

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Originally Posted by Teveshszat

Btw after testing I sugest to play 3 digs not only 2.. Also3 Snap Casters are not needed. They are to clunky at the start and a a bad topdeck if you just played dig the turn before.

Best regards Teveshszat

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I disagree, so much. I'm actually certain Ein (as well as Tomás) disagree, considering they stated they'd rather go +1 snapcaster than -1.

Dig is bad on the starthand, where as Snapcaster is fine. If it comes to that, you can even flashback your Digs with Snapcaster.

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Originally Posted by TheArchitect

It depends on the build. His sounds like it might be an easier matchup for miracles. A local guy here plays it with 4 Haunted Platemail, elspeth and Manlands as the win cons and I am like 0-6 vs it.

EDIT: and he has maindeck armegeddons.

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Found it, the closest analogy is the list Caleb Durward 4-0'd a daily with a few weeks ago (seen here: http://www.twitch.tv/calebdmtg/v/4025872?t=2h52m36s).

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Originally Posted by YamiJoey

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=83956

This looks like what was being talked about.

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I'd like to make this list but I only have 2x Clique right now.

What would you replace the 3rd Clique with? Another Pyroblast? Counterspell? 4th StP? DTT?

Pretty sweet UW only version featuring Back to Basics: http://southfloridamagic.com/legacy-top-8-results/

Not having access to the blasts doesn't seem great, nor does the lack of Ponder, but still a very interesting list. B2B, while not as much of a lock as Blood Moon, can just steal a game.

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Originally Posted by BioEBear

Pretty sweet UW only version featuring Back to Basics: http://southfloridamagic.com/legacy-top-8-results/

Not having access to the blasts doesn't seem great, nor does the lack of Ponder, but still a very interesting list. B2B, while not as much of a lock as Blood Moon, can just steal a game.

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It's South Florida, based on the coverage, that local meta has plenty of MUD and Post decks (might be related to the number of dual lands available in that area), and BtB just wreck them. Like you've mentioned, there are other Miracles decks in the Top 8 do have Red Blast effect cards; how horrible of a pilot do you have to be in South Florida, with you running Red Blast effects in your 75 and yet you still lost to another pilot who doesn't have the access?

How they beat that BUG Delver deck in the finals is beyond me. There are so many cards we care about in G1. They even have Time Walk in the sideboard.

EDIT: The 3rd Clique is probably best as a Snapcaster.

I'm playing 4 Dig/2 Snaps BTW. I've also cut Entreat the Angels. We'll see how confidant I am about this whole thing when I either do or do not have a box of Modern Masters 2 this Sunday.

More questions! VS Esper Stoneblade, is Clique better than Flusterstorm? I know if we see Lingering Souls that Clique is just bad, but what if we don't?

Pros of Fluster:
Counters Discard
Counters DTT
Fights against their Flusterstorms

Pros of VC:
Pressures their walkers
Disrupts their hand

A la Philipp:

"Vendilion Clique does not line up well against Lingering Souls at all and also cannot deal with the real threats of the lategame: a creature + Sword of Fire and Ice or True-Name Nemesis. You could insist on keeping Vendilion Cliques instead of maybe one Entreat the Angels and a Counterspell and try to take over the game earlier than normal, but I would advise sticking to the eight cards that I mentioned before simply because Clique's strength lies in the ability to deal with their Jace, the Mind Sculptor, but those are already somewhat negated by the Red Elemental Blasts that are coming in."

Vs Esperblade Clique are very hard choise imho.
If we play Clique in EOT, after Liliana resolved...well...this is godd stuff...
But Clique suffer Souls...
Imho this is dependant by the number of Blast effect we have in sideboard.
If we have 2 Blast effect, maybe one Clique can help us vs Jace (and Lili)...If we play 3 Blast effect maybe we don't need Clique...and Flusterstorm is good.

Being able to run Lingering Souls seems like one of the main reasons to run Esper, as opposed to UWR or straight UW. As you say, Clique is really good at EOT against a Liliana, or in response to a Stoneforge activation, but both of those are relatively early-game plays from Esper, so you'd have to run out your Clique on turn 3-4, straight into Souls, at which point it's basically blanked. I think the longer the game goes, the more advantaged Miracles is, so jamming an early Clique seems to be the opposite of that plan. I wouldn't bring them in in this matchup unless I was running a Karakas to recur them with.

Is Enchantress really that bad of a MU for us? It's been a deck I would love to own on the side when I get bored of Miracles so I was browsing their primer and they say Miracles is a very favorable MU for them.

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Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual

Is Enchantress really that bad of a MU for us? It's been a deck I would love to own on the side when I get bored of Miracles so I was browsing their primer and they say Miracles is a very favorable MU for them.

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It's not. It's pretty much a trolling deck in the sense that its late-game can crush Miracles because it runs 59 bad cards and an Emrakul. It's only a problem for Miracles when multiple cards that has the name Enchantress in them have resolved. One is only cycling, doesn't do anything if they're forced to put down confinement.

1. Stop anything that has Enchantress in the card name from resolving.
2. Don't get blown out by Choke.
3. Don't drag the game to late game, Enchantress might just have 15 Mana and find Emrakul.

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Originally Posted by twndomn

It's not. It's pretty much a trolling deck in the sense that its late-game can crush Miracles because it runs 59 bad cards and an Emrakul. It's only a problem for Miracles when multiple cards that has the name Enchantress in them have resolved. One is only cycling, doesn't do anything if they're forced to put down confinement.

1. Stop anything that has Enchantress in the card name from resolving.
2. Don't get blown out by Choke.
3. Don't drag the game to late game, Enchantress might just have 15 Mana and find Emrakul.

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LOL. This is like the best "funny but true" MU analysis I've ever read. Reminds of why my friend who loves playing Enchantress sometimes calls it a deck full of "bad enchantments". Good job, seriously :laugh:

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Originally Posted by Dragonslayer_90

LOL. This is like the best "funny but true" MU analysis I've ever read. Reminds of why my friend who loves playing Enchantress sometimes calls it a deck full of "bad enchantments". Good job, seriously :laugh:

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Lol. Last time I played vs Enchantress they drew 3 enduring ideals in a row... Only so many times I was able to counter it. Then all of my spells became 1/1 birds a la dovescape. I did miracle entreat for like, 9 tokens though. Not quite as powerful as I'd like when they get to make 7 / turn.

If you are not playing a mountain, it doesn't matter what your 4 non-white fetch-lands are right? 4 Scalding tarn seems industry standard but I'm thinking that it does not really matter since you will only be using the Island half of your tarns. Would it be better to play some deltas to get around needle/extraction, or will an informed opponent see the delta and then aggressively wasteland your volcs since they know you don't have a mountain? Or are the margins for all of this stuff too small and I'm wasting my energy thinking about it?

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Originally Posted by iPhone7

If you are not playing a mountain, it doesn't matter what your 4 non-white fetch-lands are right? 4 Scalding tarn seems industry standard but I'm thinking that it does not really matter since you will only be using the Island half of your tarns. Would it be better to play some deltas to get around needle/extraction, or will an informed opponent see the delta and then aggressively wasteland your volcs since they know you don't have a mountain? Or are the margins for all of this stuff too small and I'm wasting my energy thinking about it?

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It doesn't REALLY matter per say, but it depends on how you like to play the early game. One of my favourite lines is tarn -> fetch -> island -> ponder, as it leaves the array of decks I could be playing very large, and helps to hide information from my opponent. So, it really depends on what decks are in the metagame, and what T1 / T2 plays you have in your deck.