[Deck] GW/x Maverick

Cradle is certainly not win more. It helps break an even board stall and allows you to cast things nicely through a Thalia. Plus like you said, you have to give up a lot of cards to run Depths combo. Without it I'm able to play multiple decays and bring in many things post board in games. Plus getting Library is huge in the fair match ups. Also cradle is fucking insane with a Scavenging Ooze. And for those not running it, Rogue's Passage is an excellent card for punching through a ton of damage with an active Knight. Also, unlike Depths it taps for mana so it makes hands better. It also does something without needing an active knight. Also Cradle with Tracker is pretty nutty.

@TMagpie:
Usually I'm on the same page with you but I disagree with your recent post.

I agree the DD/Stage plan is run in Maverick for 2 reasons. However, I disagree with your conclusion. Maverick runs DD to 1) have a clock towards inevitability and 2) to surprise the opponent.
I will not delve into whether DD/Stage > 2 misc lands. There are a lot of good points in the theory-craft world.

Maverick, like every creature-dependent mid-range deck, has next to zero inevitability. Maybe if you had several large KotR with Mom support vs their "nothing on the table" board-state, we can concede there's an inevitable win in our favor. But I'm taking a more global position: against a decent legacy deck, you have no way to reach a high % chance that you'll be the victor. In my experiences, DD/Stage actually gives me clock. A clock that says "you'll likely end the game by pulling this off". It's never been an automatic win, but it's certainly been overwhelmingly in my favor. If the opponent lets me bullshit for a few turns, all the better because my DD clock is ticking. The surprise factor is also something you cannot gloss over. Large-scale events you can be sandbagging the combo. If KotR isn't tutoring up wastelands (the main strategy) or fetches (beat-down and math tricks), you can bet I'm setting up the DD combo. Hell, I've won rounds I really shouldn't have because my opening 7 had the natural combo. I still think DD shouldn't be the main strategy of Maverick. The combo simply lets you meander into a decision tree of "sudden finisher" that catches many opponents off-guard. When you have 2 KotR or 1 Kotr + a playable Scryb in hand, you have the advantage of "oops here's a 20/20".

I won't speak on the GSZ/Cradle comments except that "GSZ is the reason to run Maverick in the first place"....I think you're searching for negative situations.

@Luthiereisfun: SFM is insane. I have no idea what your meta is, but she's a staple for the foreseeable future.

I did not mean to sound so harsh--I do not believe Dark Depths is meant to be a primary plan for Maverick, ever. I am simply saying that when you are running Dark Depths you *have* to think of your cards differently from a philosophical level.

Depths is a card meant to give you an out when you *should* be dead. Sometimes there are openings to use it proactively to get "free wins," but I often find that doing so outside of game 2 or 3 hurts in the long run more than it helps. The combo is meant to be leaned on when your opponent is able to get into a winning position. Most often, when opponents are in a winning position, it becomes almost impossible to even keep more than 1-2 creatures on the board if any at all. Depths shines the most in those matchups since resolving a KotR means you could theoretically stabilize and, so long as KotR holds the fort to keep you alive, you can assemble the combo and win the game you were supposed to lose.

To be okay with that, Thespian Stage hurts your mana base, Dark Depths does nothing on its own, and if you keep a Maze of Ith and Batterskull in your list (like I do) you will quickly find you have little to no room for much else outside of the skeleton crew of the Maverick deck. In other words, the Depths combo is a much BIGGER commitment than just 2 lands. The only real way to be okay with running it is if you believe squeezing as many "outs" to Maverick as you can is a net boon for the deck as a whole.

Cradle is a very powerful land. I have lost to it MANY times be it from Elves or Maverick. The reason I talked down about it is because its a deck that really wants you to already have a board. The card is fairly bad after a Toxic Deluge, or a Terminus, or a Supreme Verdict, or a Pernicious Deed, or an Ugin. When I say that it "wins more" what I mean is that it does not help much if the opponent is easily killing most all of your creatures. It neither protects your threats, makes threats, or is a threat itself. I have sided out Dark Depths and have the opponent cast a Pithing Needle for Thespian Stage on the first turn of the game because they want to neuter the threat of a Marit Lage token. I have forced a standstill deck to crack its own standstill because I simply played 3 lands and a depths and started thawing. People actively change the way they play against you when they see the Depths Combo; because it's proactive, and because it is often a way for your to win the game even if they are killing everything else on the table.

it comes with HEFTY drawback, and comes with some of the deadest draws in Maverick. So if you feel brave enough to run Depths accepts that you will make a lot of cuts to fit it. I don't recommend it for people who likes running fun cards, flexible cards, or non-threat cards like Sylvan Library. You just don't have room in the deck to run that many cards that don't kill the opponent.

Interesting decision at a tournament this weekend. Game 3 on the draw against Sneak and Show and he plays Show & Tell turn 2. I have to decide between Rec Sage and Knight. I chose Rec Sage because if he puts an Omniescence or Sneak Attack in play I have a huge advantage but if I put Knight in and he goes Omni into Emrakul its instantly game over. He ended up putting a Grizelbrand in play, so the Knight would have ultimately been the better choice

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Originally Posted by Schryver

Interesting decision at a tournament this weekend. Game 3 on the draw against Sneak and Show and he plays Show & Tell turn 2. I have to decide between Rec Sage and Knight. I chose Rec Sage because if he puts an Omniescence or Sneak Attack in play I have a huge advantage but if I put Knight in and he goes Omni into Emrakul its instantly game over. He ended up putting a Grizelbrand in play, so the Knight would have ultimately been the better choice

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As Maverick players, we often have this choice.

There is a small guide that I've came with, which helps.
1) have you seen red sources? If opponent has only 3x Islands in play, chances that she plays pure Omni-Tell. Should there be a Volcanic, that is either a pure Sneak Attack or a merged one. Keep an eye on whether they have a red mana open. Pure Omni-tell doesn't care about a Sage, they win with a trigger on the stack.
2) which turn is this? Sometimes they have those perfect hands: S&T, Omni, Emrakul. But oh well, not so often. Unless it's turn 5 of constant pondering/brainstorming, chances of them having everything are low.

Summing up all the above said, it's almost always better to go for a Knight than for a Sage. Should they have Sneak into Emrakul, this choice probably won't matter much. Omni into Wish - choice doesn't matter. Should they have Omni into Emrakul/Grisel (hard to obtain all pieces) - now, Sage would save you. In all other cases, Knight is the way to go, and he is a faster finisher too.

Not saying you were necessarily wrong, but I think I put in knight most of the time. It's easier for them on turn 2 to have Griselbrand. They're more likely to anyway just by a numbers standpoint right?

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Originally Posted by Schryver

Interesting decision at a tournament this weekend. Game 3 on the draw against Sneak and Show and he plays Show & Tell turn 2. I have to decide between Rec Sage and Knight. I chose Rec Sage because if he puts an Omniescence or Sneak Attack in play I have a huge advantage but if I put Knight in and he goes Omni into Emrakul its instantly game over. He ended up putting a Grizelbrand in play, so the Knight would have ultimately been the better choice

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In the end, its really about making gut calls based on your read of the opponent over a bo3--BUT, here is the guide I use when making that call without context..

For reference:

Show and Tell

2Card Combo:
If Griselbrand => Knight
If Emrakul => Knight
If Omniscience + Instants => Either
If Omniscience + Sorcery => Reclamation Sage

3Card Combo
If Sneak Attack + Griselbrand (No Mana) => Either
If Sneak Attack + Griselbrand (With Mana) => Either
If Sneak Attack + Emrakul (No Mana) => Reclamation Sage
If Sneak Attack + Emrakul (With Mana) => Either
If Omniscience + Emrakul => Reclamation Sage
If Omniscience + Griselbrand => Reclamation Sage

The shorthand is simple. If you have been pressuring them. Destroying lands, resolving hatebears, all that jazz--then you should choose KotR because 3/4 of the time it is the correct play.

If it turns out you have not been pressuring them hard enough, and they actually have the 3card combo of Show and Tell + Enchantment + Fatty, 50% of the time Knight of the Reliquary would have been as effective, albeit Rec Sage is "technically" more effective.

Hey guys/gals,

I recently have noticed that my matchup vs 4c delver (not the grixis + green one, but the one running lots of creatures) is really bad. The cards they play (bolt, decay, shaman, delver, true-name, leovold, snapcaster etc.) are sort of a collection of cards that we never wanna see in one deck as Maverick. And those kolaghan's commands usually send me to oblivion, e.g. destroying a sword + creature. There is literally no card in their deck that would be bad or ignorable for us.

I start with siding out vials, but MU is still incredibly bad, even after sb (they bring even more nasty stuff like golgari charm, needle, dread of night, sulfur elemental, diabolic edict). One might think that Wasteland is a MVP in this matchup, but my opponents somehow always find a way to get out of Thalia/Wasteland situation and flood the board with lots of lands, they probably just play a lot of them (or, possibly, 4 Ponders/4 Brainstorms is the issue). At the same time, many of their cards trade 1-to-2 or 1-to-many vs ours. Does anybody have any ideas how to improve the MU? Or tips how to play against 4c delver? Or it's just our nemesis MU?

My current list can be found here.

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Originally Posted by aspsnake

Hey guys/gals,

I recently have noticed that my matchup vs 4c delver (not the grixis + green one, but the one running lots of creatures) is really bad. The cards they play (bolt, decay, shaman, delver, true-name, leovold, snapcaster etc.) are sort of a collection of cards that we never wanna see in one deck as Maverick. And those kolaghan's commands usually send me to oblivion, e.g. destroying a sword + creature. There is literally no card in their deck that would be bad or ignorable for us.

I start with siding out vials, but MU is still incredibly bad, even after sb (they bring even more nasty stuff like golgari charm, needle, dread of night, sulfur elemental, diabolic edict). One might think that Wasteland is a MVP in this matchup, but my opponents somehow always find a way to get out of Thalia/Wasteland situation and flood the board with lots of lands, they probably just play a lot of them (or, possibly, 4 Ponders/4 Brainstorms is the issue). At the same time, many of their cards trade 1-to-2 or 1-to-many vs ours. Does anybody have any ideas how to improve the MU? Or tips how to play against 4c delver? Or it's just our nemesis MU?

My current list can be found here.

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Play Green Sun's Zenith.

Jokes Aside, even though you're playing a vial version your list looks really heavy on three drops. You're currently playing 10 three drops which although vial may mitigate, the games you don't have vial seem like they could be clunky again delver decks that can pressure your mana. I currently run the GSZ version so it's not the best comparison, but I'm running functionally 9 ways to accelerate my mana turn one, but i'm only running 5 three drops (including Sword of Fire and Ice).

Would something like Sigarda in that matchup be good? I don't know how reliable that would be without GSZ but you do have cradle. That said it seems most list now don't run the big 5 drops. I also wouldn't want to run Sigarda against a delver deck where you want more early interaction but what your describing sounds like it might be going to a more midrange grind scenario.

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Originally Posted by Luthiereisfun

Would something like Sigarda in that matchup be good? I don't know how reliable that would be without GSZ but you do have cradle. That said it seems most list now don't run the big 5 drops. I also wouldn't want to run Sigarda against a delver deck where you want more early interaction but what your describing sounds like it might be going to a more midrange grind scenario.

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Sigarda doesn't really go that well with Vial :p But yes, for GSZ versions of the deck she will probably help a lot.

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Originally Posted by ET1

Play Green Sun's Zenith.

Jokes Aside, even though you're playing a vial version your list looks really heavy on three drops. You're currently playing 10 three drops which although vial may mitigate, the games you don't have vial seem like they could be clunky again delver decks that can pressure your mana. I currently run the GSZ version so it's not the best comparison, but I'm running functionally 9 ways to accelerate my mana turn one, but i'm only running 5 three drops (including Sword of Fire and Ice).

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When playing vials, you have to compensate for the lack of gas from GSZ, and playing more 3-drops is inevitable if you want to keep doing smth after turn 3.
And no, it's not the too many 3-drops that's the problem in the matchup :p When vial is up for 3, putting 3-drops every turn (and using mana to draw cards from Tracker) is quite crazy. But they manage to kill all my threats in a very fast pace, while keeping landdropping.

I do of course agree that in this particular matchup GSZ version is better, and it is certainly so it is for 2 more matchups: Jund and Pox. But after sb vs those 3 decks I side out vials and become some kind of midrange maverick without gsz, which is fine given the number of late drops. Sure, I become slower, but they side out Dazes and Forces vs Maverick. Probably, the real problem is just incredibly high quality of their cards.

I was even thinking of some extreme ideas like siding out all cards that don't do stuff on their own, e.g. Mother of Runes (it will die to some kind of -1/-1 sweeper or Dread of Night anyways) & Scryb Rangers, and filling these with discard, Garruk and removal, trying to play their game, so basically becoming an Abzan Rock deck with Thalias post-board (Knights roleplay Tarmogoys here :p). Example sb:

+2 Abrupt Decay
+2 Zealous Persecution
+3 Thoughtseize
+1 Council's Judgement
+1 Garruk Relentless
-4 AEther Vial
-2 Mother of Runes
-1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
-2 Scryb Ranger

I will give it a try.

P.S. What might actually help is a sb Chains of Mephistopheles: those decks draw a lot of cards. But it's not really viable in my case because of 3x Trackers.

I play a GSZ version of Maverick. I have little to no problems with any version of Delver. However, and I do wish to emphasize this, often times its simply because I run them out of removal. This is done by way of Knight of the Reliquary and Mother of Runes. Against the removal heavy versions, it is usually the 3rd time I resolve a Knight (possible because of 4 GSZ) that breaks them. If I played a list without GSZ, I can see how the matchup would feel really bad.

Scryb Ranger is just the best. During a game today I realized you can get Rallier triggers off bouncing your forests back. It wasn't apparent to me at first (I am also new to Rallier but liking him) so I thought I would share.

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Originally Posted by Luthiereisfun

Scryb Ranger is just the best. During a game today I realized you can get Rallier triggers off bouncing your forests back. It wasn't apparent to me at first (I am also new to Rallier but liking him) so I thought I would share.

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I love that Scryb, Deathrite, and Maze of Ith is 6 damage a turn

Browsing MTGTOP8 for interesting deck lists, and found these two that definitely fit the interesting mould so I thought I'd share:

1) Who needs GSZ or Vial, smuggler's copter time!: Top 8
2) All in on rallier, + eldrazi, no knight GSZ or vial: 2 top 8s

4x Displacer with 4x Rallier, combined with 3-3 Wasteland/Ghost Quarter. Savage.

13 cards that are 3+ mana. I think it'd be better off going with a few Cradles or some Birds (drop Batterskull), but seems like a potent combo.

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Originally Posted by DoomRabbit

Browsing MTGTOP8 for interesting deck lists, and found these two that definitely fit the interesting mould so I thought I'd share:

1) Who needs GSZ or Vial, smuggler's copter time!: Top 8
2) All in on rallier, + eldrazi, no knight GSZ or vial: 2 top 8s

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It's important to remember that even a deck with 59 Islands and 1 Frost Titan has chances to enter top8, given perfect hands, right matchups and lots of luck :)
On a serious note, Smugglers can be devastating in a Maverick/Delver/D&T meta: colorless flying creatures with a good equipment are pain for either of the decks. But in the majority of other metas, they honestly won't do that much.
I also absolutely agree that this conversion of Modern Eldrazi into Legacy Maverick is bizarre at the very least. It's just too slow for whatever they were trying to do. There is not even a way you could possibly play TKS before turn 3 in the deck (it's very crucial for playability of Eldrazi Stompy to be able to play TKS on turn 2).

I've played copter before and even though that deck has no Green sun, fetching up Dryad arbor to crew a copter is pretty sick

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

I've played copter before and even though that deck has no Green sun, fetching up Dryad arbor to crew a copter is pretty sick

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In my playtest with compter, my favorite play has always been Deluge the board, fetch an arbor, then attack with copter.

My second favorite was activating scryb and discarding the bounced lands to the copter to draw cards while vialing out the threats I drew.

Overall opinion on copter has been bad--but it has led to sweet sweet plays

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Holy moly today's deck was fun! I really liked the prison-y aspects of it. I thought I was going to miss having Green Sun's Zenith in a maverick build, but having every creature be great value made up for it. I honestly am not sure what I'd change about the list, other than maybe cut an eldrazi displacer to make room for something else. I realize displacer + most of the creatures in the deck = super great value, but honestly I never even cast a displacer, and didn't feel like having one in play would have made much of a difference in most games. It's a little slow, and there's probably another card that could take at least 1 slot of it. Conclusions made from playing this deck: 1) Palace Jailer is amazing! 2) Renegade Rallier has some serious value. I recurred wasteland and ghost quarter several times by casting this dude, and the tempo swing was generally enough to put at least one nail in the coffin.

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http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post995968

Worth considering...

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Originally Posted by Claymore

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post995968

Worth considering...

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Been lurking too long with this one. I think you have a very interesting list.

Saving others the click:

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Without further rambling, here's the list:

4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Renegade Rallier
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Mother of Runes
3 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Eternal Witness
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Palace Jailer
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze

4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

2 Sylvan Library

4 Windswept Heath
3 Ghost Quarter
3 Savannah
3 Wasteland
2 Brushland
2 Forest
2 Plains
1 Flooded Strand
1 Karakas
1 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:

2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Thought-Knot Seer
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Palace Jailer
2 Council's Judgment
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Dismember
2 Pithing Needle
1 Seal of Cleansing

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I want to define the core strategy: Eldrazi Displacer abuse. 24 cards from white-eldrazi.dec and your list I'd build around:
2 Containment Priest
3 Mother of Runes
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 equipment of choice
4 Thalia 1.0
4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Swords to Plowshares

Cards from white-eldrazi.dec I'm up in the air with:
2 Smuggler's Copter
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Thalia 2.0
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
3 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice

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I think Containment Priest is necessary because it is deadly with Displacer. That duo ends fair creature-based matchups. Containment Priest is also a pain in the ass for Zenith or Vial decks to handle. I'll go out on a limb supporting Recruiter of the Guard. In your list, you're always wanting specific combo pieces (or just a straight SFM finisher). This creates a "holy shit" nightmare for the opponent. Recruiter is probably a 2x choice. Being flooded with them is no good. Having zero is not the best either.

What happened to Green? I didn't abandon this plan. I am sold on 4 Noble Hierarch + 3 Renegade Rallier + 1 Gaddock Teeg (especially if you run Recruiter, which acts as GSZ). For those keeping track at home, I'm at 24 core cards + 8 green things = 32 total. We're good for another 4 or 5 choices.

Thought-Knot Seer is hit-or-miss for me. It's a value play...but cannot be recruiter-tutored, sfm-tutored, or rally'ed back to life. He is great with Displacer. Probably fair to keep him at 2-3x. I'd consider 2 Copters and some bullets. I think Slvan Library may shift the deck to being too green. As for mana...I'd rather go 4x Wastelands + 2-3x Cavern of Souls as [colorless] sources. I've never liked Brushland. I can't do the math to figure out if Eldrazi-friendly lands are worthwhile. Maybe a ghost quarter if we're light on [colorless] producers.

EDIT: If you're not a fan of mother of runes or feel containment priest is iffy in the main -- I'd heavily consider revokers. They'd 100% be in the sb.

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Originally Posted by Warden

Been lurking too long with this one. I think you have a very interesting list.

Saving others the click:


I want to define the core strategy: Eldrazi Displacer abuse. 24 cards from white-eldrazi.dec and your list I'd build around:
2 Containment Priest
3 Mother of Runes
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 equipment of choice
4 Thalia 1.0
4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Swords to Plowshares

Cards from white-eldrazi.dec I'm up in the air with:
2 Smuggler's Copter
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Thalia 2.0
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
3 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice

***
I think Containment Priest is necessary because it is deadly with Displacer. That duo ends fair creature-based matchups. Containment Priest is also a pain in the ass for Zenith or Vial decks to handle. I'll go out on a limb supporting Recruiter of the Guard. In your list, you're always wanting specific combo pieces (or just a straight SFM finisher). This creates a "holy shit" nightmare for the opponent. Recruiter is probably a 2x choice. Being flooded with them is no good. Having zero is not the best either.

What happened to Green? I didn't abandon this plan. I am sold on 4 Noble Hierarch + 3 Renegade Rallier + 1 Gaddock Teeg (especially if you run Recruiter, which acts as GSZ). For those keeping track at home, I'm at 24 core cards + 8 green things = 32 total. We're good for another 4 or 5 choices.

Thought-Knot Seer is hit-or-miss for me. It's a value play...but cannot be recruiter-tutored, sfm-tutored, or rally'ed back to life. He is great with Displacer. Probably fair to keep him at 2-3x. I'd consider 2 Copters and some bullets. I think Slvan Library may shift the deck to being too green. As for mana...I'd rather go 4x Wastelands + 2-3x Cavern of Souls as [colorless] sources. I've never liked Brushland. I can't do the math to figure out if Eldrazi-friendly lands are worthwhile. Maybe a ghost quarter if we're light on [colorless] producers.

EDIT: If you're not a fan of mother of runes or feel containment priest is iffy in the main -- I'd heavily consider revokers. They'd 100% be in the sb.

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I'm not really sold on Recruiter (he is superslow without vial, and this is already a slow deck) and on one-ofs like scooze or teeg without gsz. Imo, one should play at least two of these or not at all. I do agree about the point of 4 TKS being too many, Imo 2 are already a lot, and on Brushlands. I would probably run 4x Wasteland + 3x Quarter, just to have "<>" mana and to give no-basics delvers nightmares at night. I could possibly even imagine to play 4x Quarter in certain metas...
But then, any heavy-color cards go away.

By the way, with lots of Quarters, I can easily imagine mindcensor played here. It can be possibly played t2, it does disrupt certain combo decks and fetches, and makes Quarters semi-Stripmines even vs Miracles. Yeah, I do certainly like Mindcensor over Teeg mainboard. To support so many 3-4 drops, I'd also add 2-4 Deathrites (and 1 Bayou+Scrub)

Hi all,

I've raised the topic recently of how to deal with 4c Delver with Maverick. As it turned out, it was just one guy who played delvers there, and it was probably just a tryout. This deck is actually called 4c Control and is quickly rising in top8s (already 2%): http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15040&d=291026&f=LE

I played around 4 games vs them in Cockatrice and didn't win a single game. The matchup is incredibly bad :p

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Originally Posted by aspsnake

Hi all,

I've raised the topic recently of how to deal with 4c Delver with Maverick. As it turned out, it was just one guy who played delvers there, and it was probably just a tryout. This deck is actually called 4c Control and is quickly rising in top8s (already 2%): http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15040&d=291026&f=LE

I played around 4 games vs them in Cockatrice and didn't win a single game. The matchup is incredibly bad :p

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I can't say that I've had the same experience. I usually consider this matchup very favorable. Their manabase is extremely greedy and Thalia + Wasteland often lead to easy wins, or just a Knight tutoring Wastelands can win on its own. Alternatively, Library or any of the equipment in the deck do pretty serious work as they just don't have enough answers to go around. In sideboarded games Choke is also lights out if you wait to resolve it until they are tapped out.

I think the most important thing in this matchup is to kill DRS on sight - it enables them to get away with their greedy mana. TNN is certainly annoying, but unlike against Delver their clock isn't fast enough for it to matter too much.

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Originally Posted by timmyod17

I can't say that I've had the same experience. I usually consider this matchup very favorable. Their manabase is extremely greedy and Thalia + Wasteland often lead to easy wins, or just a Knight tutoring Wastelands can win on its own. Alternatively, Library or any of the equipment in the deck do pretty serious work as they just don't have enough answers to go around. In sideboarded games Choke is also lights out if you wait to resolve it until they are tapped out.

I think the most important thing in this matchup is to kill DRS on sight - it enables them to get away with their greedy mana. TNN is certainly annoying, but unlike against Delver their clock isn't fast enough for it to matter too much.

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^^this. Wasteland + Thalia (and Thalia 2.0 if you have her in the list) is downright bonkers.
DRS holds their greedy colors together and they typically struggle early if you keep them off activating him.

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Originally Posted by Warden

^^this. Wasteland + Thalia (and Thalia 2.0 if you have her in the list) is downright bonkers.
DRS holds their greedy colors together and they typically struggle early if you keep them off activating him.

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You guys were right. Now, when I started to better understand how their deck works and which sources should I waste then, I feel like my matchup improved from being impossible to being hard :) Winning scenario is indeed Swords into DRS -> Thalia -> Wasteland -> Choke. It is very interesting that apparently vs D&T/Maverick they side out all their counterspells and they don't play Daze, and this is something I missed too (was slowing myself down sometimes trying to play around it).

What freaks me off is amount of different builds of this deck, against which my sb differs (and they play similar cards, so it's really hard to say what exactly do they play).

I made some conclusions by myself that might prove to be interesting for you guys.

Important: most builds do not play Wastelands, so bring your fancy duals on the table and avoid colourscrew.
Wastelanding:
Against builds with basic Island/Swamp: they typically have ~2 non-DRS green and red sources, so it is quite possible to waste them from these colours, so go for Bayou/Badlands or Tropical/Volcanic, depending on which colour do they lack more - black or blue.
Against builds without basics: almost always waste Sea, as they really need black&blue in order for their deck to work, and they run 3+ green/red sources, so you will probably not be able to waste them of a color away completely.

Against builds with 2 Snapcasters: bring in 1 Surgical post-board and leave out Prelates if you play them.
Against builds with 4 Snapcasters: bring 2 Surgicals (when in doubt after game 1, bring 2, they are not bad against this deck) and leave Prelates in (Surgical into push(or bolt)/decay and Prelate for 2/1 + stripping them of red mana (for Kolaghan) sometimes works).

Always bring Persecutions: Baleful Strix, Snapcaster, Pyromancer (some builds play him!), and True-name all have toughness of 1. Sometimes, they make the mistake of blocking your Shaman with their Shaman, and Persecution does its best there.
Always bring Abrupt Decays and any other removal if you have extras in sb: killing Shaman is the key to winning this game.
Always bring Choke, this card wrecks them post-board when they tap out as they don't run counterspells post-board.
Always side out Vials if you play them: see or expect Kolaghan's Command -> side vials away. CA is much more important than tempo in the matchup, and counterspells are not a thing post-board anyways.

When playing creatures, first play creatures that you will miss less and let them waste removal into them, play Knights last and hope that they run out of removal gas. Use Shamans defensively: don't let them get mana if they lack any specific color, especially black or blue.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aspsnake

You guys were right. Now, when I started to better understand how their deck works and which sources should I waste then, I feel like my matchup improved from being impossible to being hard :) Winning scenario is indeed Swords into DRS -> Thalia -> Wasteland -> Choke. It is very interesting that apparently vs D&T/Maverick they side out all their counterspells and they don't play Daze, and this is something I missed too (was slowing myself down sometimes trying to play around it).

What freaks me off is amount of different builds of this deck, against which my sb differs (and they play similar cards, so it's really hard to say what exactly do they play).

I made some conclusions by myself that might prove to be interesting for you guys.

Important: most builds do not play Wastelands, so bring your fancy duals on the table and avoid colourscrew.
Wastelanding:
Against builds with basic Island/Swamp: they typically have ~2 non-DRS green and red sources, so it is quite possible to waste them from these colours, so go for Bayou/Badlands or Tropical/Volcanic, depending on which colour do they lack more - black or blue.
Against builds without basics: almost always waste Sea, as they really need black&blue in order for their deck to work, and they run 3+ green/red sources, so you will probably not be able to waste them of a color away completely.

Against builds with 2 Snapcasters: bring in 1 Surgical post-board and leave out Prelates if you play them.
Against builds with 4 Snapcasters: bring 2 Surgicals (when in doubt after game 1, bring 2, they are not bad against this deck) and leave Prelates in (Surgical into push(or bolt)/decay and Prelate for 2/1 + stripping them of red mana (for Kolaghan) sometimes works).

Always bring Persecutions: Baleful Strix, Snapcaster, Pyromancer (some builds play him!), and True-name all have toughness of 1. Sometimes, they make the mistake of blocking your Shaman with their Shaman, and Persecution does its best there.
Always bring Abrupt Decays and any other removal if you have extras in sb: killing Shaman is the key to winning this game.
Always bring Choke, this card wrecks them post-board when they tap out as they don't run counterspells post-board.
Always side out Vials if you play them: see or expect Kolaghan's Command -> side vials away. CA is much more important than tempo in the matchup, and counterspells are not a thing post-board anyways.

When playing creatures, first play creatures that you will miss less and let them waste removal into them, play Knights last and hope that they run out of removal gas. Use Shamans defensively: don't let them get mana if they lack any specific color, especially black or blue.

---

This is a very good analysis and supports a lot of what we've been saying for pages and pages. The tidbit to remember (especially in this meta) is that the DRS+blue decks have better individual cards than Maverick. For argument's sake, TNN, Pyro, Jace, Shardless Agent, etc are infinitely better than anything you'd play. Nevertheless, the opponent is entirely dependent upon hitting color permutations and playing cards on curve.

I disagree with your discussion of how to color-screw the DRS.dec player. I see the spirit of what you're saying, but I think you're mixing together too many archetypes and possibilities. Below is my streamlined checklist. We could talk about this at length (and some reading will likely disagree). Lots of experience led me to the following:
1. Assuming you're going in cold, hold them off blue. Blue is the glue that holds their lists together. You can deal with goyf or DRS alone. You will have a harder time dealing with U --> delver. You will have a significantly harder time if they have the chance to filter constantly with brainstorm/ponder. Probe is not a true filter and you're better off ignoring it could be cast for U since they'll usually take the damage to play it for free.
2. If you know what deck the opponent is playing, hold them off their "board changing" cards. Shardless does damage when it hits 3 mana. If I can hold them off G or BB, I consider myself ahead. Grixis Pyro decks start kicking my ass when they have non-blue cards.
3. On the draw against an aggressive DRS deck, T1 wasteland (followed by T2 wasteland if you have it) can literally end the game right there.
4. An early KotR should grab wastelands. You need to shoot down their duals. Don't pussyfoot around with grabbing fetchlands or combo pieces. An unopposed 3/3 Knight who kept them on a single basic is more intimidating than a 12/12 Knight who lets them keep 5 lands.
5. Thalia + wasteland wins. But assess your lines of play. If an early Thalia also impedes your own gameplan, you really need to be careful. You don't want GSZ, Decays, and STPs to be functionally impossible to cast.
6. Nearly all 4C DRS lists lack wastelands of their own. Go nuts.

@Snapcaster: This card is easily my achielle's heel. Whether it's UR delver, 4C drs, or Miracles -- I never get a good read on him sitting in hand. You could sandbag the surgical (statistically hard to do) or hold off on DRS who could eat the 'snapped card in response.

@Prelates: They do damage against DRS decks on X=1. BUG Control has a lot of valuable 2's and 3's.

This all seems to be issues of deck identification. This thread has a wealth of information about how to play/sideboard against various delver/shardless/4c midrange/non-miracles control decks, but I think the challenge with aspsnake's situation was identifying that his opponent was not playing a 4 color delver deck and was actually a 4 color control deck that happened to be testing out delvers. But yes making the distinction of what you're actually facing can at times be a challenge in legacy and is also crucially important as it will change the way you play against the deck.

Some cards that I feel are key indicators are:
basic lands
snapcaster
kolaghan's command
daze
bayou
spell snare
counterspell

If Snapcaster is an issue, an active Ooze keeps them off of deathrite mana, turns off Snapcaster, and shrinks goyf. Play more Scooze.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Warden

I disagree with your discussion of how to color-screw the DRS.dec player. I see the spirit of what you're saying, but I think you're mixing together too many archetypes and possibilities. Below is my streamlined checklist. We could talk about this at length (and some reading will likely disagree). Lots of experience led me to the following:
1. Assuming you're going in cold, hold them off blue. Blue is the glue that holds their lists together. You can deal with goyf or DRS alone. You will have a harder time dealing with U --> delver. You will have a significantly harder time if they have the chance to filter constantly with brainstorm/ponder. Probe is not a true filter and you're better off ignoring it could be cast for U since they'll usually take the damage to play it for free.
2. If you know what deck the opponent is playing, hold them off their "board changing" cards. Shardless does damage when it hits 3 mana. If I can hold them off G or BB, I consider myself ahead. Grixis Pyro decks start kicking my ass when they have non-blue cards.
3. On the draw against an aggressive DRS deck, T1 wasteland (followed by T2 wasteland if you have it) can literally end the game right there.
4. An early KotR should grab wastelands. You need to shoot down their duals. Don't pussyfoot around with grabbing fetchlands or combo pieces. An unopposed 3/3 Knight who kept them on a single basic is more intimidating than a 12/12 Knight who lets them keep 5 lands.
5. Thalia + wasteland wins. But assess your lines of play. If an early Thalia also impedes your own gameplan, you really need to be careful. You don't want GSZ, Decays, and STPs to be functionally impossible to cast.
6. Nearly all 4C DRS lists lack wastelands of their own. Go nuts.

---

Yeah, I was talking specifically about 4c. If they have an Island in play, you can't really strip them off blue unless you play Quarters for some reasons. So, going for other colours makes the trick. But I see that most 4c lists start rejecting basics, so Underground Sea is the best thing to go for - it doesn't allow filtering, as you said, and turns off all their removal (Push, Decay, Command).

I top 8'ed Mythic yesterday after a hiatus. The Japanese Rallier lists and several folks in the DnT thread really got me thinking.

Maverick // Position: Top 8

Creatures [27]
4 Mother of Runes
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Mirran Crusader
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Renegade Rallier

Non-Creatures [11]
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

Lands [22]
1 Karakas
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Marsh Flats
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Wasteland
2 Plains
1 Forest
1 Scrubland
2 Bayou
2 Savannah

Sideboard
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Sanctum Prelate
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Council's Judgment
2 Path to Exile
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Sword of War and Peace

***
Goldfishing (physical and with online decklists) let me see how to play my favorite legacy deck. I was confident in going vial for the current meta but couldn't figure out what the hell I should run in the flex spots. If I had a full set of ports I would have 100% went DnT with KotR. The SB felt like a solid catch-all for the room. I remembered kicking myself months ago for neglecting to respect matchups where a PWer wins the game, hence 2x Gideon. No Decays in the 75 because of mana concerns. What godfishing I did revealed how I'd usually be obliterating the opponent's resources, not stockpiling mana like my zenith-based lists.

I haven't played competitively since October. I got engaged in November. Life happens and suddenly we're in March. I was reluctant to make the journey, but my wonderful fiance encouraged me the night before to do something for myself. Dreary weather was a motivating factor (as I'd be indoors, I might as well scratch the magic itch).

R1 - Bye // W
Lucky me

R2 - Hank w/ Elves // L
Game 1 Hank unloads with a ridiculous glimpse chain turn 2 (about 5 or 6 elves come out and his hand is 7 when he passes). Turn 3 Hoof.
Game 2 I'm stuck on 1 land for half the game. I actually manage to survive for a while with his limited double nettle sentinel beatdown. My DRS holds back his DRS. I get a vial online and eventually assemble a board of my own. Before the crucial turn (deep into the game) I have: 2 lands, Vial on 3, 2 active Moms, 1 active DRS, Phyrexian Revoker on "Quirion Ranger" (nerfing the 1 on the other end of the table), 2 Canonists, 1 Prelate (x = 4, to nerf NO), 1 SFM (lost her equipment to Cabal Therapy earlier), and a Mirran Crusader. I am defensive the whole game. Hank eventually drops cradle and pays for GSZ (x=9) to Hoof me for like 47. Given what I was dealt, I think I did the best to lock him out of glimpse and Natural Order. I needed the earlier batterskull to race him.

R3 - Bryant Cook w/ Storm // W
Bryant and I are friendly. IMO he's one of the best players in the room. We shoot the breeze as we shuffle. I mention how I believe I'm 3-0 against him lifetime in competition. He is probably looking this up when he gets home. Anywho, I know what he's got. He has an idea I'm on GW something (usually Maverick). Game 1 I'm on a 7 card opener to his 6. Bryant leads with land -> ponder. I play carefully around any small chains he could assemble. Based on my notes I think I ghost quarter his sea (leading to his 1 swamp). Holding him off blue is big. He casts Duress. I drop Thalia at some point, which is big. Rallier comes out at some point and helps with mana denial.
Game 2 Bryant again mulligans to 6. I keep 7. He leads probe, volcanic, ponder. I play the denial plan. He sculpts a hand while I drop DRS into QPM. He keeps sculpting while an exalted-boosted QPM deals 3 a turn. I have Bryant going from 16 to 15 to 12. I fondly remember he had 2 Volcanic + 1 swamp in play. He casts burning wish for dark petition and passes the turn. Shit! I lucksack wasteland, which I chain into Rallier -> wasteland again. This leaves Bryant on 1 swamp. On the next turn I see Bryant chain spells. I pop QPM to nuke chrome mox before it can imprint a color. Bryant ultimately grapeshots for 8 (4 against creatures to clear the board, 4 to my dome). EOT I vial KotR into play. She beats him down. Bryant scoops soon thereafter, since he's staring at a swamp and spent his hand the turn earlier.

R4 - Paolo C w/ BUG Delver // W
He's a beast. I've never beat him in competition. One of the top performing players I know. If he reads this I hope he recognizes the respect I have for him.
Game 1 is a fast delver beatdown. He wastelands me to screw up my sequencing. 1x TNN in the second to last turn ensures inevitability. Typical 5 minute delver loss. 'Those are the bricks.
Game 2 Paolo misplays twice in the opening turns. We casually back up his first mistake (summ sickness on his DRS). I decided to stop play and call for the Judge on his second mistake (double land for turn). Paolo very understanding of the misplay and didn't seem to take offense. He announces ponder but drops delver from his hand. Quickly scoops that up and shows the actual ponder card. A dexterity issue I just document in my notes (revealing his hand to me). I waste him off cards so he can't really do much. I believe he pondered a few times the whole game. Shooting down DRS early + wastelands is a golden plan.
Game 3 is interesting. I waste his early trop. He has DRS on the table. He stabilizes with Sea, which leads to cantrips. Cantrips eventually find another trop IIRC. At some point I play Prelate and KotR after baiting a daze (which took Paolo back down to 1 dual in play). Paolo surprises me with Confidant, who starts gobbling up topdeck cards for Paolo. I continue to pressure the board and eventually path to exile his lone DRS. Meanwhile I'm sandbagging a persecution in my hand. TNN joins Confidant. Zealous Persecution end of turn breaks the game open in my favor. KotR keeps tutoring wastelands while little dorks nibble. Paolo saves time by scooping at 11 life because he's down to 1 dual land. Others watching this match ask why would I bother doing this and not just attack with a large KotR. My rationale is "I don't want Paolo to reach 3 mana (toxic D, liliana, etc)" --- I'd gladly take a few extra turns to ensure Paolo never gets back in this. Can't give BUG a chance back in the game.

R5 - Eli Kassis w/ BUG Delver // ID
*We agree to intentionally draw. That puts both of us at X-1-1 heading into the final round. We'll press our luck next round for win-and-in.

R6 - Hollywood w/ UB Landstill aka "the Hollywood special" // W
Game 1 I crack his standstill early to force in a SFM. My creatures are all met with answers. Then I hit a critical mass of threats he can't handle/counter. I see enough of his deck (basic island and swamps, mishra's factory, blue fetchlands, wastelands of his own, brainstorm, spell snare, fatal push, snapcasters, jace the mindsculptor) en route to a victory. I have an idea of what I should bring in.
Game 2 Micheal opens with 2 Nihil spellboms early. A key card is counterspell'ed. Toxic D wipes my table. He's got 2 factories under standstill. I scoop early (good call) to force game 3 with me starting.
Game 3 I finally see vial, which throws Michael off. He pops force of will - pitching spell pierce to prevent T1 vial. He jokingly scolds me for not informing him about being a vial Maverick build. We laugh. The game grinds on, growing increasingly tense. I'm in "I need to topdeck a threat" mode while looking at a hand of swords to plowshares. He drops engineered plague on humans. Meanwhile, Prelate (x=1) comes out. Prelate beats for 1 under plague. Council's Judgement is used to remove Plague (finally). I find a jitte and equip to prelate. Momentum. I think the same turn I equip jitte, Snapcaster flashes in mid-combat. I gain Jitte counters but lose my lone creature in a trade. Crap. Literally everything I play for 10 turns is useless (lands) or a creature who immediately gets countered or fatally pushed. I burn through 2 KotR this way. Very frustrating. Michael burns 2 wastelands on my 2 duals, sinking me down to 2 basics. It takes numerous turns to build back up to 4 mana. I windmill slam Gideon, who makes a 2/2 knight friend. Michael is frustrated he didn't see Gideon as a potential threat. He scoops after 2 turns of a jitte-holding 2/2 token + Gideon himself comes to play. Gideon won this stalemate.

I qualify for Top 8 as #7 seed.

Top 8 - Angelo w/ Eldrazi aggro // L
Eldrazi does Eldrazi things while my deck fails for produce threats. The best I could do both games is double wasteland. But I'm losing a war to Mimic, Reshaper, Endless One, and the 5/5 haste trampler. Mom and DRS were all I saw both games. Game 2 I have the potential to drop KotR but a Thought-Knot Seer rips him from my hand. It happens. The luck runs dry.

Overall I'm VERY pleased to face a literal murderer's row of competition in swiss. Hank, Bryant, Paolo, Eli, Hollywood is a by far the hardest road to a top 8 I ever had to deal with. After months away from the game, I'm glad I can still play off instincts and body reads. These 3 and 4 color decks are so goddamn greedy. Exploit those manabases!

***
Notes & Reflections

DRS is in every other matchup. Having your own is big. Although I wonder if Noble Hierarch + exalted stacks is better.

Phil from Thraben Academy is ahead of the curve with his analysis of equipment. I felt Batterskull was actually irrelevant all day. It's still in my list as a security blanket. Across all games I grabbed Batterskull 50% of the time but actually cast it like once or twice. Fire and Ice was the other weapon of choice and that thing is still a house. I think Phil is correct in saying the meta shifted away from Batterskull being perceived as "scary". It's just not the bee's knees of yesteryear. I still enjoy its upside. It should still be in the 75 somewhere. But maybe I follow through on his high praise of War and Peace. If I could go back in time, I'd actually go Jitte + Fire/Ice + Body/Mind. Pro-blue/green against all these DRS and TNN is real.

22 lands with Vial + 4 mana dorks (DRS today) was managable. Speaking of the manabase, Ghost Quarter was phenomenal. I actually want to have another.
I could see myself going down to 6 fetch in exchange for going up to 2 GQ. Alternatively, swapping a fetch for another Cavern of Souls wouldn't be a bad move either. Cavern broke open blue matchups. My only reservation is that Cavern does not pay for spells. It's terrific with any color creature (usually named on Human) but awful for WW stuff like Gideon.

Revoker was a last minute swap in place of Scryb Ranger. I think Scryb would have been the better call (why don't I completely net deck?). I wanted a flyer all day.

KotR (the darling of the deck) was phenomenal all day. Moving forward, I want to shift more towards Green and Taxes. As I write this, DnT has too many viable 3 drops (Flickerwisp, Crusader, Prelate, Recruiter, Thalia THC, Banisher Priest, Mangara) and I can't see how she fits into the deck as a 4x. She's certainly worth 4x.

Rallier was great as a 1x. I can see him possibly being a 2x if I built around it. Double wasteland situations is AMAZING. He also grabbed a countered vial in one game. So many possibilities. Hell, he could ramp you to 4 lands on turn 3 if there's a fetch in the grave. The important thing to point out is that Rallier is GW snapcaster mage. There's conditional upside, but he's more or less an underwhelming vanilla beater. You need to be able to trigger the revolt AND have decent targets. In an LD-focused Maverick list, he can be great. However, I had a bit of luck with him popping wastelands in succession. In DnT there's potential but I think they need to convert to ghost quarters to enable him more frequently.

Moving forward, I'd like to push further into Green and Taxes territory. I would run 4 Noble/DRS + 4 KotR in a white DnT shell. QPM and Teeg deserve inclusion in the 75. I see potential for Sylvan Library and Rallier, but the vision I have is Noble/KotR being played seamlessly as both are humans. DRS would muck up the manabase but he packs tremendous upside + is mana denial in DRS faceoffs. QPM is occasionally awkward to cast because he's not coming in off cavern. Teeg is equally awkward.

The room was BUG heavy (~50%). 3rd Mirran should have been run over 1 Prelate main. Prelate was solid though.

Has anyone tested the straight up swap, Renegade Rallier for Knight of the Reliquary?

Tempo's much harder against 3 color decks and we already have the stoneforge mystic trump card over creature decks where you needed knight to be large.

The mana base would have to change to include more Horizon Canopies and fetches to help enable the Rallier more often, but other than that, the deck could remain the same, just faster.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lavafrogg

Has anyone tested the straight up swap, Renegade Rallier for Knight of the Reliquary?

Tempo's much harder against 3 color decks and we already have the stoneforge mystic trump card over creature decks where you needed knight to be large.

The mana base would have to change to include more Horizon Canopies and fetches to help enable the Rallier more often, but other than that, the deck could remain the same, just faster.

---

If you want to be faster, play Vial Maverick.

Knight is the very reason our deck exists. It gives us a huge advantage against any fair creatures: tarmogoyfs, goblins, merfolks etc. and at the same time can wreck enemy's manabases, search Karakas, draw us cards from Canopy, find Cavern against counterbalance and he is just so much better than Rallier in our deck.

There is however a deck gaining popularity, which is basically D&T with green for Ralliers. They run Ghost Quarters in place of Rishadan Ports and aim to destroy opponents' manabase big time. This is completely another deck that has nothing to do with Maverick though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aspsnake

There is however a deck gaining popularity, which is basically D&T with green for Ralliers. They run Ghost Quarters in place of Rishadan Ports and aim to destroy opponents' manabase big time. This is completely another deck that has nothing to do with Maverick though.

---

Any list you can share ? Or link ? I'm really interested about this new list. Thanks ;)

Had a pretty good run over the weekend at a small tournament in Brussels.
Here's the list http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15088&d=291349&f=LE

Swiss: 2-1 vs BW Pox, 2-0 vs Miracles, 2-0 vs Rug Delver, 1-1 vs Aluren (G1 took 45 minutes!)
Top 8 (ranked 2nd): 2-0 vs Miracles, 0-2 vs Miracles (he went on to win)

Pretty happy with the result, especially going 2-1 vs Miracles, don't do that too often ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ChrisDissent

Any list you can share ? Or link ? I'm really interested about this new list. Thanks ;)

---

I saw it in D&T discussions ("Established Decks" subforum), somewhere on the last pages. Can't give a link as it hasn't won anything just yet as far as I know :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DoomRabbit

Had a pretty good run over the weekend at a small tournament in Brussels.
Here's the list http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15088&d=291349&f=LE

Swiss: 2-1 vs BW Pox, 2-0 vs Miracles, 2-0 vs Rug Delver, 1-1 vs Aluren (G1 took 45 minutes!)
Top 8 (ranked 2nd): 2-0 vs Miracles, 0-2 vs Miracles (he went on to win)

Pretty happy with the result, especially going 2-1 vs Miracles, don't do that too often ;)

---

Good job! Beating Miracles all day (almost) is really impressive! I decided to play SoL&S in sideboard too, looking at how well it worked for you :) Will cut Council's Judgement - will miss it probably, but it's just too good against Miracles, mirrors and D&T, which I face rather often lately. It probably works just fine vs some grindy black decks like Pox and a few BUG variations too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lavafrogg

Has anyone tested the straight up swap, Renegade Rallier for Knight of the Reliquary?

Tempo's much harder against 3 color decks and we already have the stoneforge mystic trump card over creature decks where you needed knight to be large.

The mana base would have to change to include more Horizon Canopies and fetches to help enable the Rallier more often, but other than that, the deck could remain the same, just faster.

---

Honestly, I would not replace KotR. She's the best thing in the list and is the one must answer creature. KotR beats down, can tutor lands, and synergizes with multiple sub-strategies.
Rallier is like a snapcaster mage, as he's quite conditional (see my previous post about this above). Not to mention Rallier is actually just a vanilla 3/2. I wouldn't trade my all-star attacker, who I consistently depend upon in combat. KotR also builds momentum in your favor the longer she's on the table. By contrast, Rallier is played for its revolt. You need to ensure his entrance is overwhelming, otherwise he's just not doing much. Because of this, I find him to be "good, but not great". 1x worked well for me. I can see the potential for 2x.

I agree with @aspsnake when he says "Knight is the very reason our deck exists." It's so true.

@DoomRabbit: Congrats! That's awesome. I'm curious what your best cards were (from your experience did anything shine throughout the day and/or overperform for you?).

I like rallier a lot in the matchups like miracles where we need to apply pressure but not over extend. I also like that he provides an ability that no other card (talking most generic builds) can do which is bring a lost permanent back from the gy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Warden

Been lurking too long with this one. I think you have a very interesting list.

Saving others the click:


I want to define the core strategy: Eldrazi Displacer abuse. 24 cards from white-eldrazi.dec and your list I'd build around:
2 Containment Priest
3 Mother of Runes
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 equipment of choice
4 Thalia 1.0
4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Swords to Plowshares

Cards from white-eldrazi.dec I'm up in the air with:
2 Smuggler's Copter
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Thalia 2.0
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
3 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice

***
I think Containment Priest is necessary because it is deadly with Displacer. That duo ends fair creature-based matchups. Containment Priest is also a pain in the ass for Zenith or Vial decks to handle. I'll go out on a limb supporting Recruiter of the Guard. In your list, you're always wanting specific combo pieces (or just a straight SFM finisher). This creates a "holy shit" nightmare for the opponent. Recruiter is probably a 2x choice. Being flooded with them is no good. Having zero is not the best either.

What happened to Green? I didn't abandon this plan. I am sold on 4 Noble Hierarch + 3 Renegade Rallier + 1 Gaddock Teeg (especially if you run Recruiter, which acts as GSZ). For those keeping track at home, I'm at 24 core cards + 8 green things = 32 total. We're good for another 4 or 5 choices.

Thought-Knot Seer is hit-or-miss for me. It's a value play...but cannot be recruiter-tutored, sfm-tutored, or rally'ed back to life. He is great with Displacer. Probably fair to keep him at 2-3x. I'd consider 2 Copters and some bullets. I think Slvan Library may shift the deck to being too green. As for mana...I'd rather go 4x Wastelands + 2-3x Cavern of Souls as [colorless] sources. I've never liked Brushland. I can't do the math to figure out if Eldrazi-friendly lands are worthwhile. Maybe a ghost quarter if we're light on [colorless] producers.

EDIT: If you're not a fan of mother of runes or feel containment priest is iffy in the main -- I'd heavily consider revokers. They'd 100% be in the sb.

---

Regarding containment priest... Palace Jailer + Eldrazi Displacer is actually just better. It's a one-sided effect since they don't get the creatures back until they become the monarch, you can just flicker the palace jailer and take a creature every time you do so.

Pros/Cons: Palace Jailer costs 4 mana, priest only costs 2; Priest prevents you from using displacer to save your own dudes, Jailer does not. Jailer also generates card advantage because becoming the monarch is sweet, and it's usually difficult for your opponent to steal the throne from you.

I have 5-0 a couple leagues this last week. I've been trying to test a couple winter orb but haven't got them to resolve against miracles. I wanted a couple more Choke effects to help out vs miracles. My 60 is the same as it has been lately with sword of light and shadow over batterskull.