Scapefit decks also run more than 21-22 lands.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zirath
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Scapefit decks also run more than 21-22 lands.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zirath
That is a very compelling argument to me. Given that the Sneak Fit list is very tight, what is most likely cut for an Arbor (Navsi's last list is a good point to work from, it's very close to what I am thinking, few slots differences)?Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
I'm not trying to fight, I want to be convinced that Arbor is good because I fundamentally agree that 8 accelerates in a combo deck that is land light should be better than 4 (or 12 rather than 8 if you prefer) but the combo lists haven't been able to use them effectively. Essentially, I believe that being able to reach turn 5 asap is more powerful than anything else we can do in a deck that attacks for 15.
I don't know the Sneak Fit lists well enough. I gave them a try a few weeks ago but that's all. What I found was that you generally didn't want to give up a GSZ early because the deck only has so much fuel. It would be much better for that GSZ to get an Empath/Bellower. With that in mind, perhaps the right card isn't a Dryad Arbor but rather another DRS. I did feel like the list didn't accelerate quickly enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zirath
When it comes to finding a cut, I think it's the Pulse in the flex slot on the idea that if you're a turn faster you're less likely to need the removal.
I'm really not a fan of this card. It's strong, but it doesn't improve matchups we need help with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dissection
@Brael: That's an interesting list/concept. I think I'd swap Oracle > Courser because you want to drop double lands every turn (clues, general ramp).
I didn't test your list...but I can't help but think Mentor doesn't earn enough tokens. You'd have to drop dudes for spells (most likely draw spells). Otherwise you're praying for double SDT to chain.
I like the more efficient body of Courser (bigger body, lower mana cost) and the incremental life gain. Oracle is certainly something worth trying out, but I won't be able to do so for awhile. I'm locked into my current list through January for a league.Quote:
Originally Posted by Warden
You would be surprised at how many spells you can cast with Mentor. Basically, just a single Top is enough. I've had the scenario with a lone Mentor facing a near empty board, removal in my hand, and having to just keep Mentor a 2/2 but I'm already winning those games.
If you have a single Top you're virtually guaranteed 2 Prowess triggers a turn if you're good about bouncing it to your library. Mentor followed by 1 spell (the Top you bounced the turn you're playing it), followed by 2 spells on the next turn is 7 damage and 4 bodies. The turn after, a single spell, (such as a GSZ getting you an Eternal Witness, which gets you another spell) is 9. Even in an anemic situation like that it generates lethal.
Remember that it plays well with Therapy flashbacks too. You can use summoning sick Monks to cast flashbacks to boost the rest and clear the way.
Atraxa's only issue is the lack of First Strike. If she had it, the calculation is free.
Courser's butt is part of the reason he's so good. Bolt resistance matters a lot for our non-perishable creatures.
So that good old Sir Mixalot had a point afterall..?Quote:
Originally Posted by Zirath
Very interesting list in my opinion. I have always wanted to have some kind of "I win button" in Junk. And the list seems pretty streamlined.Quote:
Originally Posted by Qweerios
I'd play this online but the 3 LoTV (->300$) prevent me from doing so; I imagine they are pretty essential, aka not replaceable, to this kind of strategy right?
Just throwing my two cents in on the Dryad Arbor...Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
I have been playing a Stoneforge build for a few months and running a Dryad Arbor. I don't treat Dryad Arbor as a land but more like an uncounterable creature with flash. I never want to draw it or find it with GSZ it's always something that I'll fetch for EOT if I have Equipment, Garruk the Veil-cursed, or Elspeth Knight Errant. I used to play a Diabolic Intent that I could fetch Arbor for but the Diabolic Intent has been replaced with a 3rd SDT.
I doubt that I would play Arbor in any NicFit variants that didn't either have some way to boost the Arbor P/T or get additional sac benefit (beyond our standard Therapies)
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I think you're missing the most important use of Arbor which is that he's a T1 source of mana acceleration. Arbor greatly expands your range of hands that have access to 3 mana on T2.Quote:
Originally Posted by AtticusBlaqk
I can't boost Arbors P/T in mine, but I still find it to be very useful. Mana is important.
To be fair, making 3 mana on turn two is less important to a Stoneforge list than it is to most other builds, since they have plenty of good two-drops to play instead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
That's why you play a 2 drop and a 1 drop.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
You can easily replace her with collective brutality. It might even be better... This is an older list I haven't updated.Quote:
Originally Posted by rubblekill
Collective Brutality seems mandatory in Reanimator based lists (independently of the back bone).Quote:
Originally Posted by Qweerios
Of note, Arian and I were playing around with a Sultai Reanimator list before the Dig Through Time ban last year that played Jace, Vryn's Prodigy as an enabler as well as maindeck Show and Tell. We haven't explorer it more but I think that Reanimator subshells are one of the design spaces we haven't exhausted. Collective Brutality also adds to this since we didn't have great enablers in the past list other than Jace and Therapy.
Entomb, Reanimate, and castable fatties fit with ease in Nic Fit and mitigates most of its weaknesses. I don't understand why it is not being explored. I mean, I understand why it isn't talked about in this thread but I have seen the idea be dismissed too many times anywhere.
It pretty much boils down to if you want to go for that plan, there are decks that do it better (so why bother with Nic Fit?).Quote:
Originally Posted by Qweerios
While you are probably right, can't the same be said for the sneaky build? Honest question, I'm not trolling.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Both the reanimator and the SA build have explosive combos that have creatures that can still be casted normally: don't the big red or S&S decks execute the SA plan better? The question sparks from someone like me who hasn't played the deck yet, but I'm asking honestly because I want to test more comboish versions and I have to decide if I want to go the SA route or the collective brutality - entomb one
That's what I tried really hard not to say. But very likely, yes. Having a full cantrip & counter suite means they execute the same gameplan more consistently under the cover of counter magic and b/c of that also have a better MU vs. other fast combo decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by rubblekill
I don't know if that's necessarily accurate. Nic Fit combo lists naturally play a lot less filtering and potentially also less combo pieces than a dedicated combo deck like Sneak and Show. Not playing countermagic and having a slower combo are definitely disadvantages.
What the deck does have, though, is a much better backup plan. We run a lot more interaction, with removal spells and discard in relevant quantities in the main deck, and we have an extremely viable backup plan which means we're less likely to brick out and do nothing if we don't have one of our combo pieces, or one gets countered.
Scapeshift has it worse than Sneak, just because it's backup plan is a lot worse. Being a one card combo deck means it can kill people pretty well out of absolutely nowhere, though, so it does have its redeeming features.
Sneak Show (as well as Reanimator) is performing badly due to the abundance of DnT. Cantrips and permission are naturally weak to that mana denial strategy. There's something to be said for having a plan B that isn't identical to plan A that also happens to be very strong against a creature deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Pure combo decks don't really compete well right now. I think that based on Miracles and Lands performing as well as they are that Combo Control is much more reliable in this meta.
I have a question for the Nic Fit community. I am new to the deck and have been trying to test a lot with it. My problem is that I can find myself stabilizing games but I don't find the win easily. It takes several turns to finish the game, which if I go to g3 it can easily take more than 50 min.
I'm sure some of this is with my unfamiliarity and learning how to make decisions with the deck. But is there any advice with how to play that might help? Or is it really a case of "practice makes perfect."
Thanks for the help.
SDT and Fetchlands help a lot. Tireless Tracker is great. Sometimes hold your GSZ for a later turn so you get a bigger threatQuote:
Originally Posted by Kobra_D
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Also just practice doing all of your mechanical things like fetching, spinning top, resolving triggers and such to get faster at it.
Played another of my weekly league matches during our local Thursday Legacy. My tournament deck was Burn, but my league deck was Nic Fit so I have a match to report. I played against Dragon Stompy, which if you're not familiar is basically a prison deck. It tries to lock you out with Blood Moon/Magus of the Moon, Chalice, and Trinisphere then close the game with a threat.
I ended up winning it 2-1 which makes me 3-1 so far with Nic Fit.
Lost G1 by committing the cardinal sin of keeping a hand without green mana (Plains/Scrubland) my hand was Plains, Scrubland, Tireless Tracker, Scavenging Ooze, Eternal Witness, Cabal Therapy, SDT. Opened on Scrubland, called Blood Moon with a T1 Therapy, opponent had Magus instead but no way to accelerate into it on T2. I missed on green on T2 and played Top. Over the next few turns I found Bayou, Windswept Heath (Mountain), Ranger of Eos, and Endless One but I couldn't cast anything until it was too late. The Ranger and/or Endless One would have been great a turn earlier, but at the time I found them the damage was done, I was facing down a Rabblemaster with 2 tokens (and a third on the next turn) and a Magus of the Moon which is 10 damage.
G2 involved a T1 Therapy that hit 2 Blood Moons. Opponent played a T1 Chalice for 1. My turn 2 was a Cavern of Souls on Human and Noble Hierarch. Opponent went with a T2 Chalice for 2, but I used the Cavern to cast a Dark Confidant. Afterwards was a Rabblemaster but I traded Bob for it, then Eternal Witnessed Bob, traded EW for the token, and let my 2 draw steps per turn run away with the game.
G3 was similar. I got both my Caverns but didn't need either and I actually drew basics to play through a Blood Moon, and that's precisely what happened (though the Blood Moon came down late). The game rounded the corner for me on T4. The opponent had a Chalice on 1 on board and a Rabblemaster. I had Forest, Swamp, Scrubland, Verdant Catacombs on board. I played a Pernicious Deed, then after attackers were declared blew it up for 0 to take out the tokens+Chalice, and followed it up with a Path on the Rabblemaster. After that KotR+Hierarch came down and I started hitting my opponent really hard.
Never drew an Explorer or GSZ in all 3 games. No opportunities for Mentor to shine in this match either, and my SB plan was using the KotR package over Mentors (-1 Phyrexian Tower, -2 Mentor, +1 Cavern, +1 Shriekmaw, +1 KotR, I make this SB swap a lot) but I think I've identified one more change I would like to make. The Mentors push the mana sinks in the deck a little too hard so I think I want to ease up on that a bit and turn Tireless Tracker #2 into Dark Confidant #3. Bob is absolutely amazing, in the past months worth of matches I've played with Nic Fit I haven't lost a single game where it has hit the table.
This may be too results oriented because there's a 50% chance I would have won that G1 if the Tracker were a Bob (50/50 it was Tracker #1 or #2), but I think the rest of the logic is still sound. You have to be very disciplined with your curve to play Bob in a ramp deck, but he has been amazing for me.
It's an SDT deck, and we have 100 other things to do during our turn. The clock is going to be your enemy, and most people in paper aren't overly familiar with the deck (though it's "that explorer/ramp deck" online) which means they think longer about how to deal with us on their turn, which is completely fair. The only thing you can do is play faster, and if your opponent is slow playing, you need to call that out right away because you need all the minutes in the round.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kobra_D
If you play the deck long enough, you'll start to get faster with your decisions. It's a deck where you need to play briskly. If you don't feel like you can speed up your play, you can try to develop a better shuffling technique, that's a big time waster in paper as this is a deck where it's not unheard of to shuffle 2 or 3 times per turn.
Edit: There's a lot of small things I do to speed up my play. I'm a very technical player so this first one is really hard for me but I try to shortcut wherever possible, particularly with shuffling. For example, crack a fetch, get my land, and then wait to shuffle because I'm casting a GSZ. If you do everything as written that sequence has you shuffling 3 times but it's something you can shortcut to 1 shuffle regardless of outcome.
Another thing you can do is to try and reduce decision fatigue. Not only will this result in you making better plays, but you'll make them faster. I'm somewhat critical of the super toolbox deck with 20 things to tutor for this reason. It has been my experience that 90% of the tutoring in the deck is contained to 4 cards or so. So I cut down on the toolbox a bit, which is why I run cards like Dark Confidant and Tireless Tracker, which you want to draw naturally but not tutor. This also makes me skeptical of cards like Diabolic Intent because alongside their power comes a much bigger decision. In low round tournaments this doesn't matter, but the longer things go, the slower you get as the tournament goes late.
One that many overlook or outright work against is memory. How often have you played a game against someone, and after a Thoughtseize, Probe, or Therapy they write down the opponents hand? This is a HUGE waste of time. If you have or can develop a good short term memory you can just look at an opponents hand and save yourself time writing down cards. This is also true of SDT, the really bad SDT players write their cards down, the mediocre ones occasionally reactivate Top because they forget what they had. Card memorization skills apply just as much to remembering your cards as your opponents. Not everyone can do this, and I think it's the last thing to work on, but it's also something you can actively practice in any game. I've found a good way to practice this skill is to try and recall a game after a match. You can see this in action with me in this very post, recalling my G1 hand. Retelling games is how I practice my card memorization ability.
Last is shuffling technique. Personally, I use the mash but I've been working on riffles and will eventually move to it. My mash technique is good:
- Divide deck in two, grabbing the middle half as one pile, side quarters as the other
- Mash one into the other
- Cut, put bottom half above top half
- Repeat
This gives a better shuffle than the typical mash because it moves stuff to the middle where most cards get mashed so you can better distribute cards in less time. Riffles are the best though. I find it takes me about 3 seconds to do a cycle of my mash pattern, and proper shuffling needs 12 of them, so shuffling well takes 36 seconds. Riffles take 2 seconds and only need 8 which is 16 seconds. Over the course of 10 shuffles in a game that's 200 seconds or 3:20 saved. Over 3 games that's an extra 10 minutes you get in the round which is another 8+ turns.
And the best time saver of all: Have some sort of I win combo like Sneak Attack or Mentor that ends the game quickly and reliably. Taking game 1 out of nowhere is the best time saver you can have in a match.
Actually, double post because this card is interesting enough to be worth discussing.
http://media.wizards.com/2016/bn8f9t...1yYO1nV_EN.png
One of the big issues we often have is in choosing fetches to maximize getting the basics we need. The traditional 4 Catacomb/Windswept, 3 forest, 2 plains, 1 swamp results in just 6 ways to get a Plains and 5 ways to get a Swamp.
For the cost of 1 mana (which is essentially the same cost as something coming in tapped) we could use this to get that basic. But, it also has the alternative mode that similar cards like Evolving Wilds lack which is that when we don't need the basic we can just play it out as our land. It's also a 1 mana shuffle effect, letting it function as something of a mana sink in addition to being a mana source.
Thoughts on it as a 1 of over say... Windswept Heath or Verdant Catacombs #4?
I think what's most drawing me to it, is the fact that it's a reactive answer to Blood Moon. I see quite a bit of Blood Moon locally and it requires fetching basics early and often, slowing myself down in order to not get locked out later. If this is in your hand though, you're pretty free to fetch duals, and then once a Moon comes down you can cycle into the land you need.
Edit: Upon thinking longer I'm liking some more stuff about this land too. First, it's a pain free way to get all 3 colors of mana. Second, it's a good DRS enabler so it can slot in over a fetch well. Third, the Wasteland interaction is pretty strong. If you fear Wasteland you can cash this in for any basic you need, but if you don't you can just play it out and tap. This card deals with Wasteland better than fetches do, because those can only get 2 colors while this gets anything.
Or, you know, you just run 10 fetchlands. W/ 4 Catacombs, 4 Heaths, 2 BW ones and 2 of each basic you get to 10/8/8/ virtual Forest/Swamp/Plains. Works quite well, I can tell you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
The problem I have with the land is that it doesn't give you the colour of mana you want on T1. It's probably not that big of an issue, but still.
@Kobra: Basically what Brael said. Know your list in and out, remember what cards you see w/ Top & Therapy (or in case of Therapy just remember the most important 2 or so). As for gameplan - disrupt, stabilize, get your CA engines online, overwhelm w/ CA and beat opponent to submission.
Just wanted to drop by and say these Sneak-and-Fit builds have given me some vigor! Question though, why are we still running PrimeTime Titan if we aren't running Scapeshift? Great card and all, but now that I can't nuke people out, should I be running something else?
I've tried that, I like it. It doesn't work with Caverns though. I really like having the Caverns, they just won me the round I retold in that previous post. Lots of Chalice locally and having the ability to just Cavern through it helps a lot. They're great against the Delver, Miracles, etc matches too. Especially Miracles, where I'll do anything to strip answers from them and that makes it difficult to run 10 fetches.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
10 fetch+4 dual+6 basics=20 lands. I run 4 utility lands between Cavern, Arbor, Tower, and Stronghold, so something has to give.
Neither does Phyrexian Tower or Volraths and we can deal with that. The truth is, I'm falling out of love with the Tower lately. It's only good with a specific card in our hand to combo with it, but that's all really. Thinking about it more, Tower might be what I replace with this instead. That way it's a colorless for colorless swap, and Tower is really only great on T1 or T2, while this is more like Volraths and good any time other than T1.Quote:
The problem I have with the land is that it doesn't give you the colour of mana you want on T1. It's probably not that big of an issue, but still.
Thanks for all the ideas everyone.
I also have another question of an issue I ran into. This might have already been addressed but I didn't see it when quickly parsing the post.
gaddock teeg nombos with GSZ, is keeping some eldritch evolution in the SB viable? I'm not arguing that it is as good, it's not in most cases, but it is playable with GT in play.
Hi, guys. I'm about to get into Legacy, and Nic Fit seems like a really cool deck. Are there any things I should know first? Also, is there an updated primer, or a collection of default lists for the various archetypes here? Thanks
A lot of stuff. Most relevant:Quote:
Originally Posted by ChordFor15
First is that you should be prepared for a horrible win rate for a year or two, especially being new to Legacy. A huge part of the deck is identifying what you need to name with Cabal Therapy, your win rate depends on it. It's one of the hardest cards to play properly in Legacy (much harder than Brainstorm) and it's the central card that holds the deck together.
Second is to watch your mana curve. Just because you can play 5's, 6's, and 7's doesn't mean you always should.
Third is that you're going to be weak to combo, so you should make peace with that.
Fourth is that you're a non blue deck in a format that does a lot of unfair stuff. To be successful in Legacy you need interaction. Typically this is a mix of counters (or taxing), discard, and removal. Since you don't have counters, make sure you have discard and removal. It's the deck building tax to play the format, lots of newcomers to Legacy get too involved in what they want to do, and forget that their opponent is also doing powerful stuff.
It's a fun deck, and it's a good deck if built correctly and played well, but there's a reason it's not even in the top 50 most played decks in the format.
Oh, and don't buy anything initially. Proxy decks first, because you don't want to buy a bunch of cards and find out your deck sucks and/or that you don't like it.
Look back a page or two and we discuss a few lists. The most common build these days is Rhino Fit which you'll have to do some digging to find discussion on. Sneak Attack builds have gotten most of the discussion lately. I'm in love with what's called SE Fit, but no one else plays it (fortunately for you, I'm pretty vocal). In the primer is mention of some of the old GY recurring decks, they've fallen out of favor lately but are probably viable right now with DRS being lower in numbers these days.
@Brael: I get your point.
What MUs would you want to use Eldritch Evolution? And at the cost of what cards you'd play in your SB otherwise? If it's in the same slot as a 2 CMC hatebear (Ethersworn Canonist for instance) you might just be better off running that instead. Costs you a mana less, doesn't require a creature on the field to work and doesn't expose you to a 2-for-1.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kobra_D
What Brael said, both to you and his first post to Kobra. Probably the most important thing is to be very critical of your list and aim to make it as quick and consistent as possible. Your list will be able to answer just about anything, but not necessarily in the most straightforward way. Due to what you play you sometimes get away with ignoring things your opponent does (Chalice of the Void can come to mind, or a lone flipped Delver of Secrets), allowing you to save hard removal for when you really need it. Don't be afraid of your creatures dying to your own Pernicious Deed - there's always more, and you can recur them to some degree. Same goes for flashbacking Cabal Therapy. Your opponent casts SFM and gets Batterskull? Feel free to sacrifice that Deathrite Shaman to get rid of it once and for all. Just don't forget to activate one of its abilities before doing so. A few turns later, drop a Siege Rhino and start swinging.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChordFor15
The deck rewards you for thinking on your feet, coming up with creative solutions and correctly identifying if something is a problem or not. Sometimes you just have to be patient and bide your time. That's probably the hardest part.
Has anybody considered DLD Atarka in the Sneak Fit version of the deck?
E: it may very well be a less efficient inferno titan, I'm asking for curiosity. No new developments on the deck?
Did anyone play this at Eternal Weekend?
Arian did. He had a very good start and then some...Elves happened at the end. He'll probably make a big post about it later. For what it's worth, I think he did tremendously well given the limited amount of paper testing that was accessible to him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
I wasn't able to make it to EW, but I'm going to be jamming Sneak Fit at the Legacy Classic in CBus in a few weeks here, so I'll be sharing what my thoughts are after that both here and reddit.
I've been slightly wondering about the Primeval Titan in the list too, are we just using that to get Groves, or is there the potential of another creature that I could play that would be solid, like Grave Titan?
The primary one is Stronghold for the Miracles match up. Also a GSZ monster, which Gravey is not.Quote:
Originally Posted by volrathxp
That's fair. I'll probably roll with the Prime Time, for sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zirath
I didn't realize there was a Columbus SCG coming up. I probably should have since there's always a Columbus SCG coming up. That would be fun to play in, I'll have to see if my schedule allows for it (it probably doesn't). I would love to give my list a spin in a bigger event.Quote:
Originally Posted by volrathxp
Unfortunately there aren't many Legacy events near me coming up, except at the end of November where I'm already booked with Worlds for a different game, so I won't have any new results for Sneak or any other lists any time soon.
On the plus side I've managed to acquire a copy of Living Plane, so I also have the option of bring the Starfield list if I do get to any events.