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Ok, I have been testing a variety of Zoo builds (bombonne's from the GP, Cat, Big), and I just keep getting blown out by Merfolk in like 60-70% of games. I know this is supposed to be a good matchup, but I just keep running into Misstep/Daze/Force over the first 3-4 turns, and I'm sitting there with an empty board and looking at a bunch of fish that are now out of burn range. Is there some strategy I'm missing here? Am I just unlucky or bad at Magic or what?
How many lavamancers you've had in your builds? Did you play MD games or with sideboard? I tested few MD games Zoo vs Merfolk and when I played cat zoo, I won 80% of the games and the only losses I got was due to horrible flood of lands for me. When playing big zoo (with punishing fire / grove combo) I had much harder time to set up the combo to keep the fish away. Because of that, I won only 60% of the games we played.
How many games have you played as well, play some more games and I guess it might just even out later on. I find it a bit weird that they use misstep / daze / fow 3-4 first turns, play lands (maybe vial) and enough lords to get out of burn range. Check how many cards the fish players have in their opening hand. ;)
So here's my question for you guys:
What are the best sideboard/maindeck cards against dredge? Dredge is running really rampant in my metagame and because of that I'd love to know what tools there are to fight dredge. Because of the nature of how games go against dredge, I would need to have so good sideboard plan against dredge, that I should win the both sideboard games. Here's what I've thought out so far:
MD hate:
Gaddock Teeg
Bojuka Bog
SB hate:
Bojuka Bog
Relic of Progenitus
Tormod's Crypt
Leyline of the Void
Faerie Macabre
Wheel of Sun and Moon
Gaddock Teeg
Surgical Extraction
Volcanic Fallout
If I just could keep the bridges away the matchup would be so easy, we have the superior creatures but it's really really annoying to kill your own creature in order to remove a card from opposing player's graveyard, just to see another one go to a graveyard next turn when they dredge. I'm not afraid at ALL about the dread return targets, just the mass of zombies is really really annoying.
I'm thinking Dueling Grounds is going to get a spot in my SB. Helps against zombie tokens, elves, thopter tokens, fishmen, and goblins.
But what are you going to take out against each of those matchups? Grounds doesn't advance your aggressive board state at all
Yeah, Dueling Grounds is terrible. I can't imagine a scenario where an aggressive creature deck would want to limit itself to only one attacking with one creature. If you want to beat Dredge, play GY hate. If you want to beat Elves, Merfolk and Goblins, play good cards that Zoo already plays.Quote:
Originally Posted by jandax
If you're running a SFM list like bombonne's, I think it's entirely plausible to sit back and ping with Lavamancers while attacking with a single sword-holding KotR/Goyf getting exalted triggers from Pridemages. Maybe it's too situational, I really haven't had much of a chance to test it, but it seems like it would be handy in a variety of bad matchups.Quote:
Originally Posted by CorpT
Edit: Nevermind, just realized Ghostly Prison would be better in all those cases (except combo elves), and easier to cast.
One thing that i really miss in the deck is the capability to destroy non-basic lands. Sometimes I wish to cut Karakas out and add a single Wasteland. Just to fetch to destroy some mazes, ruins, glacial, etc...
I really don't trust in a single Karakas, even with 3-4 KotR, to win against Emrakul/Iona's decks. I just think that it is too slow...
Any thoghts?
Be a man, play three Wastelands next to the Karakas.
This is a build I'm going to play in a tournament next weekend. The meta is unknown, but I expect a lot of Junk type decks (Team Italia, Rock, ect), and the new MUC decks to appear. I chose Zoo because I feel like it is an all around solid aggro choice that doesn't draw too crappily and doesn't outright fold to discard. Any quick advice before I head off?
Land: 22
3 Arid Mesa
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Taiga
3 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Mountain
Creatures: 22
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Kird Ape
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Gaddock Teeg
Spells: 19
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Helix
3 Path to Exile
2 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sylvan Library
Sideboard: 15
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pithing Needle
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Price of Progress
2 Choke
1 Path to Exile
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Bojuka Bog
I would up the land count to at least 20, you only have 18 land listed(one of them being a dryad arbor). In my list I only run 1 and 2cc things, and I still don't feel right running 20. With Horizon Canopy acting as a passable mana source and late game cycler, you can afford to run more than 18 land. I would drop a GSZ and the arbor for a basic forest + plains and either the Teeg and/or a Pridemage for 1 or 2 canopy.
I feel Compost does too little against black based decks. They either run Pernicious Deed and you get a small consolation for them blowing you out with it, or they don't play deed and then the black cards will not be the problem. If they hymn you while you have it out, they still 2 for 1'd you because you had to play it, and even worse you spent 1G into something that was not a threat or removal as well. You don't want to drop it early for that same reason. I would run 2 Price of Progress in their place since they will help you against the hardest of the rockish matchups (TA, Junk)
I'd also find room for 2 Choke, since they are a beating and a half against most tempo or control based blue decks. And maybe a Bojuka Bog for random blowouts in Knight wars.
Maybe -1 Crypt -3 Compost -1 Teeg, +2 PoP, +2 Choke, +1 Bog for the sideboard?
Alright, I'll try those changes. Thanks mate. I don't know about the land thing though, I'm finding 18 to be about the right amount.
EDIT: Also, land being 22 was a typo :)
If you're planning on facing Junk and other decks that run Wasteland, you greedy
GSZ is terrible in Zoo without Dryad Arbor or Noble Hierarch to help accelerate it. I would play more creatures or some equipment instead.
Dropped GSZ from my fast Zoo list, very pleased with the results. How do other players feel about a fast list running 19 lands (Kird Ape over Steppe Lynx)?
In reference to those of you opting to drop below 20 lands in your Fast Zoo builds, I recommend reading these words of wisdom from Mr. Gavin Verhey:
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/f...ugh_Lands.html
As tempting as it is to cram in extra creatures and spells, I think dropping below 22 or 21 lands isn't worth it, even in these hyper-fast 1-drop centered builds. At the moment I personally am running 4x Lynx, 4x Guide, 4x Nacatl, 3x Lavamancer, 4x Lightning Bolt, and 4x Chain Lightning, and I'm still trying to find a way to squeeze in a 22nd land (Horizon Canopy). Even those of you opting not to use Steppe Lynx should still keep the land count high. Zoo wants to be able to play a 1-drop turn 1, 2 1-drops turn 2, and a 1-drop and a 2-drop on turn 3. If you don't draw enough lands, you can't do that, and Wastelands will slow you down even further. My philosophy currently is to run 12x fetchlands, which feed KOTR, Grim Lavamancer, Goyf, and Steppe Lynx, while reducing Wasteland's effectiveness in denying me the right colors. Running that many fetches also can have an actual "deck-thinning" impact in the late game, while still ensuring I hit my land drops. In addition, it means Jace's Fateseal is less effective, and my Sylvan Library is more effective. Horizon Canopy is also amazing at keeping your gas going mid-late game, which is why I want 2.
Lands are good, Mulliganing sucks. Keep that percentage over 33%!!
For Reference, here is my current list:
Dudes (24):
4 Goblin Guide
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Steppe Lynx
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmagoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
2 Knight of the Reliquary
Spellage (14)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 Price of Progress
2 Fireblast
2 Sylvan Library
LandHO! (21)
4 Arid Mesa
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Horizon Canopy
I have been trying to decide whether to run Path to Exile main, over Price of Progress or some number of Chain Lightnings, but this was basically the list I ran at the GP.
I would not run less than 3 Grim Lavamancer now. He's very solid. I generally don't like 4, but it may be needed these days. Pridemage has been a little more disappointing lately so I would look at him as a cut.
I think 3 is probably the right number for Path if you expect to see any Knights or Tarmogoyf unless you go up on the burn which is a perfectly valid strategy too.
I've been looking a lower end, faster deck that can really abuse the speed of Zoo and use Retribution of the Meek in the board. Probably similar to Patrick Sullivan's list, but with some tweaks. I know he said he didn't like Steppe Lynx, but I love him. I'm not a fan of Rift Bolt though, so that would probably become some other type of burn for me. Basically a 1-drop Zoo style list with lots of burn backup.
Isn't that just goyf-sligh, then?
I think 3 is the right number of Lavamancer. You more or less always want to see him, but multiples are really hard to support without shafting your Goyfs and KotRs.
I think some number of Paths is necessary maindeck. There are a lot of fatties that are out of burn range and you don't want them stalling up the board. Goyf, KotR, Terravore, Tombstalker. Any of those can just sit there and buy time.
I would also suggest 3x Library main. It's the difference between winning and losing so often, and multiples aren't the worst thing ever.
The only reason multiples of library aren't the worse thing ever is because the first one always gets countered/blown up. ;p