[Deck] Dredge

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Originally Posted by Vandalize

Would you mind posting your list? I've dropped LED's as well, since I've started to lose to Artifact GY-Hate again.

This is my current list:
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Tarnished Citadel

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
1 Darkblast

4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting

4 Putrid Imp
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba

4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return

SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 3 Faerie Macabre
SB: 3 Firestorm
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Ingot Chewer
SB: 1 Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

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I've been trying to put together an objective analysis of why I prefer to go LEDless (so far), but up until now I haven't had the time to put things down. I'd also be interested to see how the Felidae's LEDless list is constructed.

Here's my list, for reference:

• http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post620282

My preferred sideboard inclusions have changed since I ran my list, particularly regarding the inclusion of Dread Return in the sideboard. Nothing is set in stone though (except the core, of course).

Kind Regards,
jares

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Originally Posted by Felidae

Out of curiosity: How often do you use dirty tricks with Therapy ( i.e. casting Therapy, then immediately announce something ( lets say Brainstorm), then wait if he casts the Brainstorm and then name a different card, or simply name a card and then ask "So does Therapy resolves?" while hoping that he will reveal his hand in the process)?

So far I never used it, allthough I haven't had any situation where I wanted to use it ( i.e. playing against some jerk who really deserves some dirty trick like that), yet.

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I find this interesting, because I've NEVER done this...

The way with which I usually do it is to not name a card at all, and wait for my opponent's confirmation that Cabal Therapy has resolved. Seems like there would be cases where these "tricks" would be useful though. :tongue:

Kind Regards,
jares

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Originally Posted by Felidae

Out of curiosity: How often do you use dirty tricks with Therapy ( i.e. casting Therapy, then immediately announce something ( lets say Brainstorm), then wait if he casts the Brainstorm and then name a different card, or simply name a card and then ask "So does Therapy resolves?" while hoping that he will reveal his hand in the process)?

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I sometimes mumble a cardname and pretend to think a bit before playing a Cabal Therapy, and then name something completely different but that's about it.

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Originally Posted by Vandalize

Would you mind posting your list? I've dropped LED's as well, since I've started to lose to Artifact GY-Hate again.

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What? Artifact hate gets played again? :eyebrow: I only see Snapstraction everywhere. And rarely a Cage here and then.


@jares: You are the uncrowned king of doubleposts. :laugh:

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Originally Posted by NecroYawgmoth

@jares: You are the uncrowned king of doubleposts. :laugh:

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Sorry if these so-called "doubleposts" are seen as eyesores by some. I find it easier and more organized to respond to separate discussions... errr... separately. :laugh:

I'm actually just waiting for this zilla person to do something about it if indeed these doubleposts go against conventional netiquette. If that happens, then I would be the crowned king of doubleposts! :tongue:

Kind Regards,
jares

I personally don't care if you double, triple or even quadruple post. :laugh:

It's just something I noticed the last x pages. :tongue:

I just think it could annoy some user / mod because of the forum rules / netiquette, like you just said.

I use this kind of therapy tricks every time I think it gives me an advantage. Which is less often then you might think. I already thought about using it every time whem I 'm at BoM to properly rep the dredge.

@ Vindicate:
4 City
4 Mine
4 Coliseum
3 Citadell

4 PImp
4 Moeba
4 Ichorid
4 Troll
4 Imp
4 Thug

1 Darkblast

4 Bridge

4 Therapy
4 Breakthrough
4 Study
4 Looting

Side:
2 Grudge
2 Chewer
4 Claim
1 Ray
3 Firestorm
1 Darkbalst
2 Coffin Purge


@ Hokus:
Please take a photo of some french dude who is totaly pissed, due to this trick :D.

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Originally Posted by joemauer

Me thinks newdredgeplayer is trying to troll us with his 'new tech' of entomb.

We need to put links in the new primer where entomb has been discussed to death throughout this thread.
Oh and unmask while we are at it.

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Yeah, why not, let's discuss Entomb yet once more, again, since now it brings Faithless Looting as well... oh wai-

Hollywood, you there man? Be sure to put links to these discussions ^^

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Originally Posted by Felidae

@ Hokus:
Please take a photo of some french dude who is totaly pissed, due to this trick :D.

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Well, that won't be better than last year, Timo told me he was asked if he played "the german deck", he obv. didn't know what to answer. He plays out bazaar, the guy sighed and explained that he was absolutely destroyed by two other germans this day with the same deck. Priceless.
If I take a photo though, it will be a french guy. I cannot express my hate for them just in words.

When I don't draw LED + Breakthrough/Looting, the card I want most in my hand is Putrid Imp. Why are you LEDless guys dropping Tribe for Looting? The advantage of not playing the artifact is that you're more conservative, and better tuned to face hate. If you don't play Tribe, I think you're using a strictly inferior LED version (without LED lol). Hopefully that makes sense.

Edit: I mean, just think about it. Right now, your deck isn't any better at fighting hate than LED and it's slower. Where's the advantage?

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Originally Posted by igri_is_a_bk

When I don't draw LED + Breakthrough/Looting, the card I want most in my hand is Putrid Imp. Why are you LEDless guys dropping Tribe for Looting? The advantage of not playing the artifact is that you're more conservative, and better tuned to face hate. If you don't play Tribe, I think you're using a strictly inferior LED version (without LED lol). Hopefully that makes sense.

Edit: I mean, just think about it. Right now, your deck isn't any better at fighting hate than LED and it's slower. Where's the advantage?

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They just saved $120++ by switching to LEDless!
They probably use Geico for their insurance company as well.

Because you can still play 8(!!) fricking studies???
I mean, that's by far the best draw spell we have Oo

That's not the point of LEDless. You aren't trying to max out draw spells in that version.

What good turn one play do you have besides Putrid Imp in that version?

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Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus

Because you can still play 8(!!) fricking studies???
I mean, that's by far the best draw spell we have Oo

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I agree with HokusSchmokus. Also, aside from the fact that increasing the number of Careful Study in the deck is a good thing, it's also worth noting that both Careful Study and Tireless Tribe serve two roles when included in the deck (Discard+Draw, and Discard+WarmBody, respectively). With the common denominator being the capability to discard, and based on what I want to achieve in my LEDless build, I prefer to have the extra draw cards (or "digging cards", in reference to the occasional need to search for anti-hate) in my deck.

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Originally Posted by igri_is_a_bk

That's not the point of LEDless. You aren't trying to max out draw spells in that version.

What good turn one play do you have besides Putrid Imp in that version?

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I'm not sure of what you believe to be "the point of LEDless" is, but I don't base my builds on "maxing-out" on anything - so, in a way, I agree with you. :tongue:

To answer your question, I have found that playing Careful Study or Faithless Looting are very good Turn-1 plays (of course, like in any opening play, these considerations are subjective to the rest of your opening hand). I expect you to disagree with this (given that you were even asking this question), but I encourage you to look into it in testing and see for yourself.

Cheers,
jares

None of you understand what I'm saying? You are trying to build the deck like LED and in doing so are creating a worse version than either. I played the standard list without LED for 14 months and not once did I consider Careful Study the best card in the deck.

The point of removing LED would be to play a different version, with less conditional turn one plays. Right now, you haven't done that. You made your first turn significantly worse, in fact. You also hurt your g2 and g3 by trying to mirror LED's style.

I just can't wrap my head around your guys' thinking here.

This is even more ridiulous than suggesting entomb. There is no way a dredge 12 card/ dig me to hate card is even slightly worse than tribe. Which does almost nothing on its own btw. And the point of LEDless dredge is to kill my opponent. What else? This can also be achieved with tribes but hey,why not speed my deck up a turn if I can.

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Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus

This is even more ridiulous than suggesting entomb. There is no way a dredge 12 card/ dig me to hate card is even slightly worse than tribe. Which does almost nothing on its own btw. And the point of LEDless dredge is to kill my opponent. What else? This can also be achieved with tribes but hey,why not speed my deck up a turn if I can.

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See, this is exactly what I'm saying. If you want to speed up your deck, play LED!

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Originally Posted by igri_is_a_bk

See, this is exactly what I'm saying. If you want to speed up your deck, play LED!

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So you deliberately chose LEDless to be slower? Why is it not good to speed up a deck,getting less dead draws, better ways to fight current hate and a stronger early.game in the process? Sure I can think of situations where tribe is better, but all of them are postboard.

Edit: on a sidenote, I realls think about not posting here anymore. Call ne an elitist,arrogant scumbag, don't care. I came here because this is a competitive forum, but in reality; all we do(exspecially in this thread)is argue over which suboptimal card choice is better, back that up with poor reasoning and some top8 finishes and move on to the next bad decklist. I'm really sick of it.
At Igri: nothing personal, I feel like that at least for 2 months now.

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Originally Posted by igri_is_a_bk

See, this is exactly what I'm saying. If you want to speed up your deck, play LED!

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I'm sorry that I haven't had the time to write down my analysis of why I've chosen to exclude LED from my list, but I fully intend to... when I become less lazy. :tongue:

At this point, I haven't read any objective justifications for any of the points that you've raised, so I'll just take it as subjective preference.

Cheers,
jares

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Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus

So you deliberately chose LEDless to be slower? Why is it not good to speed up a deck,getting less dead draws, better ways to fight current hate and a stronger early.game in the process? Sure I can think of situations where tribe is better, but all of them are postboard.

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I'm on a posting frenzy, but my break is almost over so it'll have to end after this one.

Yes, absolutely. You definitely chose not play LED in order to be slower and better g2 and 3. How can that be argued otherwise?

What I'm saying, ultimately, is that I would consider there to be two variations of this deck that are best at what they do. First, the quadlaser list. Second, the list with 15 rainbow lands, 8 dorks and 4-of everything.

I believe if you play a deck that's in the middle of those two, you are choosing a build that isn't strongest at anything. So, again, I ask where is the advantage of those lists?