Wizards of the Coast will fix that sooner or later.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kich867
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Wizards of the Coast will fix that sooner or later.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kich867
A few quick points.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kich867
It can be artifact lands as well no need for Chrome/Diamond.
The Tinker deck will play a lot more disruption.
Or in other decks, just side the 5 card package to play with Tops.
Inkwell.
Eh. If you're going to directly compare Tinker with anything it's probably Natural Order. For all the bullshit S&T brings to the table (quite literally) at least it requires you to build around it as opposed to the very compact Tinker package. Also 3cc. Also Blue. Granted I'd love to play it in a MUD/U combo/prison shell with Metalworker (getting Darksteel Forge post-sb) or even prison/aggro with Master of Etherium, but it'd get old fast.
In your given scenario, yes, I believe Tinker is worse than Show and Tell. Leviathan dies to everything emrakul dies to except Karakas (which is obviously a big deal), on top of any sort of cheaper artifact sweepers (Serenity, Seeds of Innocence).Quote:
Originally Posted by edgarps22
So this again puts it, at least in my perspective, in a worse situation than Show and Tell. Serenity is actually a ridiculous answer to Affinity which you will tend to see in tournaments. Show And Tell is good because it's hard to answer, you can't even go overboard in shutting it down because you're either dealing with an enchantment or a sorcery. If you bring in Pithing needle and put it on Sneak Attack they can still use Show and Tell and bring in grizzlebee or emrakul that way.
Each aspect of Show and Tell requires unique answers, and that's why it's hard to fight (good ol' counters can sometimes do the trick but they do run quite a few of them). The problem with Tinker here is that there's actually an all inclusive answer to the strategy, mentioned above, alongside almost all of the same options you had previously.
Not only that, Inkwell Leviathan is a 3 turn clock. Emrakul annihilation and griselbrand draw power shuts down your own answers, Leviathan and Tinker do no such things.
Yes but Show and Tell takes up 12-16 slots in your deck, tinker takes up 5, maybe 6. That is a HUGE difference in how you can build your deck and what else you can put in it. Inkwell gets around a LOT of the formats answers, no O-Ring, no Swords, not much of anything kills it, and in nearly every case it is unblockable. Specifically the commonly used answers to big fat fatties simply do not work, and the answers you suggest are found where? In Enchantress? So in one matchup I have to worry about Serenity, oh wait with all this extra room I have more Spell Pierces and Counterspells.
Heck in a head to head match I would take Tinker over Show and tell into Griselbrand because I can nail you once before you get to do a draw 7, if I hit you twice the game is over. Vs Emrakul I can just play Karakas and O-ring, which I would definitely be playing anyways for Grisel as well, and just make life horrible, with more slots available to control or tempo you out of the game. Tinker takes up so few slots it is scary in what it allows you to do with the rest of your deck. Show and Tell requires so many slots to be devoted to it that it is scary.
I have no clue that you are talking about. I argued bout the Hilarious comparisons done between Legacy/vintage and S&T/tinker and showed how the comparison lacked in their respective formats and you derail it into: "tinker in Legacy"?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kich867
Tinker is a 1-card Combo in vintage available Turn 1 with the Natural fastmana of the format and a robot somewhere in your Deck
S&T needs a creature in your HAND. In Addition it is available later or with tradeoffs like moxen/tomb/etc.
Natural Order needs a GREEN creature on the field and a Green in the Deck.
These 3 are completely different tiers with different requirements and to bite the Troll: Tinker in Legacy would be likely played with Seat of the synod, Opal mox and top instead of shit like chrome mox and ancient tomb.
Those are fair points.
I don't necessarily agree that Tinker takes up so few spots though. 4x Tinker and a target or two for sure. But now you're messing with your manabase, adding awful things like artifact lands which you can't fetch and tap for a single color. If you're looking at things like Chrome Mox or Mox Diamond you're further restricting yourself or at least drastically impacting the sort of decks you can realistically play.
To say you don't have to cater your deck to tinker I think is a simplification of the situation. You still do have to cater your deck, you still need tinker targets that won't impact you too much that you can reliably find. I would say that you want at least 8-12 tinker targets.
My suggestions of Serenity and Seeds of Innocence are in conjunction with the fact that people are running Gilded Drake and other highly focused sideboard cards in their sideboards, to me all it would be is swapping from one or two focused hate cards to one or two new focused hate cards that still have some decent applications.
I guess a turn 3 Jace is oppressive and a turn 2 Griselbrand isn't, nice rationalization.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
The other reason discussing bans is painful is that the status quo bias is everywhere and always dominant over actual reason.
It was the only part of the post I really cared to address, cool off for awhile :laugh:. I'm not trying to troll you or attack you, I'm just saying I don't think Tinker is going to be as good as people are saying it would be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
I also have absolutely no opinion or care for vintage, I'm speaking about Tinker in legacy if that wasn't very obvious and abundantly clear by my post.
Inkwell Leviathan and Sundering Titan are about the best tinker targets you can get. This doesn't sound that scary. When you are behind against most aggro decks these guys aren't going to save the day like Emrakul, Grizselbrand, or Progenitus do. Show and Tell/Natural Order already cheat these guys in play.
Why would Tinker be more broken than Show and Tell or Natural Order? Why does Tinker need to stay banned but the other two are fine?
I get that Show and Tell has to be built around, but it brings in more devastating creatures.
Natural Order doesn't need more effort to use it than Tinker. You don't see Maverick and every green deck shoving Natural Order into it's deck or sideboard.
Why do people think every blue deck would add a few dead cards and a weakened mana base to their decks just to abuse creatures like Sundering Titan and Inkwell Leviathan? Aren't there better things these decks can do? Like flash a fleet of 4/4 fliers into play at the end the opponents turn? Or cast Jace?
I don't have much faith that Tinker will come off the B&R list considering weaker cards are still on there, but it probably could come off without dominating the format.
You can put Tinker into any deck with the requisite number of artifacts. Takes up just a few slots that you can put into any deck. There is Control Slaver, Stax, or an Accelerated Blue-esque deck. It wouldn't be hard to break it. It'd be a lot like Flash (remember that card?) where you have a fairly compact wincon in a deck with an absurd amount of disruption. You have space for things like Red Blasts, Pierces, Snares, Daze. You could have Jace as a backup plan. Welder for added resiliency, Thirst for draw, etc. I'm not sure why anyone wants Tinker unbanned. All it does is make Blue decks that much better. And the card is absurdly strong too.
I have nothing constructive to add.
Whoever suggest(ed) LED should be banned needs a cock punch.
The durdle that is a post t3 Belcher deck, I loved playing against show'n'tell when I had an LED in play and a Belcher in hand. Don't think there was another reasonable way I could've won without his help.
Tinker should stay banned because it does nothing to help me. Blah blah blah.
Cheers,
I had to share that with somoene.
Mind Twist unban?
The card is powerful, but unless you have enough fast mana to power out a Mind Twist for 3 or 4 turn 1, Hymn is better even if Hymn is BB
I love how you forgot blightsteel colossus. Oh yes, unban the card that can enable free wins with almost no effort. Tinker blightsteel in. You lack an answer? You lose. Good game, except not really because tinker is busted. Tinker is a 1 card combo, show and tell is a 2 card combo. Show and tell is tame in comparison to tinker because tinker actually TUTORS while show and tell requires the card in your hand. Ok so instead of running 8+ SnT targets, you're required to run 1 tinker target in your deck. Guess where the other 7 slots go. Oh yes, protection. You may think swords'ing BSC is an out, however why would someone tinker out a blightsteel they can't protect? Such a move is begging to be punished by a plow or some removal. And there is a LOT of protection for blightsteel in the format that would also be quite convenient in the not so uncommon mirror match (flusterstorm, spell pierce, force, daze to an extent.) Unbanning tinker isn't something I'd advise doing EVER in legacy. Unless you want tinker.format to happen. I'd love to play a FULL PLAYSET of the card as well, something a lot of people forget is that legacy is a format of 4 ofs. Having 4 ridiculously busted cards in your deck is something that no format should enjoy when said cards are yawg's bargain, necropotence, flash, etc. etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by joemauer
I don't feel attacked; I'M the one to say "Sorry" here. I just wanted to prevent a discussion about unbanning Tinker I seemed to cause unintentionally. I'm sure it's a waste to marter our brains with that being that unlikely to happen ever.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kich867
My friend, I think mana Drain would become a staple of Blue control behind FoW and BS and the undisputed "engine" of control. We might Not longer ask: do I run terminus, discard, counterbalance, explosives? No, all would Run drain (and side them out vs. Tempo), counter a Turn 3 Knight of the Reliquary, and hardcast SFM+Batterskull on turn 4 etc. Drain allows such splashy plays that i'm sure ist would be kill most of the other blue Control strategies.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
Btw I never commented Griselbrand in any Post before. I just mentioned the repeating comparison between S&T with Tinker. Is tinker the stronger Single Card? Probably. Does ist have Anything to do with Legacy? No, that's the Point i endlessly repeat. I did Not comment S&T's strength in Legacy in any way so don't put words in my mouth, thanks
You know that we had mana drain's unbanning as well as S&T's banning as topics here lately, that's why i picked up both sperately before.
A thumb up @ Dark Ritual being able to differ 1-Card-combos from 2-Card-Combos ;P
Truth to the matter:Quote:
Originally Posted by ahg113
Every deck utilizing LED has the potential to win the game on the first turn at least 30% of the time, and close to 60% of the time by turn 2.
Is this something we should be proud of?
Is this something we want to encourage?
(just playing the devil's advocate)
You are making way too many assumptions about the way Tinker would be played in Legacy. Tinker doesn't have to be alternate Show and Tell it can be used as a finisher in a control deck, it can be a transformational sideboard in any deck that runs artifacts (cough Tendrils), as well as the combo deck you assume is it's only function (which is probably the worst use of it overall). You don't have to build around Tinker the way you do around S&T. It takes up significantly less slots in the deck, the entire package can be fit into a sideboard, the artifacts you will be saccing do something good on their own and are not just mindless combo pieces, ect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kich867
Can you show where you got these numbers? Because I play both Dredge and T.E.S., and your numbers jive with neither my personal experience nor the results of my calculations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
On the topic of tinker, it's not just S. Titan and Inkwell Leviathan. Possessed Portal is also a very bomby tinker target as is platinum emporium and mindslaver. The hypothetical tinker list that I would make would look like Control Slaver / Steel City Vault. Goblin Welder, Faithless Looting or Thirst for Knowledge, and 4 Tinkers and a bunch of control cards (Counters, maybe even an intuition or 2, Jaces). I'm not sure if the format is ready for degenerate control decks like this.
avg(Belcher, TES, SI/x, Dredge)Quote:
Originally Posted by funyun45
At least two of these decks have over 50% first turn kills, Dredge and TES have the capacity for first turn kills.
Adding another turn makes TES and Dredge much more consistent to win, as well as rounding out SI/x and Belcher.
The common element to all four decks is LED. No fair deck exists in Legacy that uses LED. Very few other decks in Legacy have even the potential to win the game on the first turn.