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I'm not that concerned about it getting Decayed. Land recursion is one of the deck's tools, but it's not the whole game plan. If you get even one land back with Crucible you've 2-for-1'ed your opponent. Unless you're playing Lands (the deck) or combo, you're exposed to Decay to some extent. This is just the 'dies to Doom Blade' argument by another name.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barachai
The point is that it is not substantially different from Loam, but can be abrupt decayed; I don't see the point in running it unless you've already maxed out on loams. As far as 3cmc cards that beat prelate are concerned, I'd run extra toxic deluge before crucible. This is not to mention Knight -> Cabal Pit.Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
I'm certain that the deck wants the first Crucible before the fourth Loam. I'm not sure if the third Loam or first Crucible is better, nor am sure that either is better than a second Deluge, first Tireless Tracker, creature land, or Kolaghan's Command. Crucible is substantially different from Loam in that it doesn't require continuous input of mana or Dredging to recur a land. The cards are complementary, and you usually don't want to substitute one for the other.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barachai
I'm taking this deck for a spin. Anyone have any board plans against miracles and shardless? Do you all typically keep in Chalice vs shardless? I can easily see dropping it for 0 to keep them off of Ancestral. It, honestly. seems like the best card against you after tarmogoyf.
I usually take almost all(might leave 1 if nothing else to cut) and also cut the gaddock teeg and a couple of moxes. You want to grind so focus on that.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheKingslayer
Keep Decays for goyfs, everything else dies to PFire.
Against Miracles I seen so many different boarding plans that I can't point the correct one.
Would say to take 1PFire, 1Loam, 1Ooze, 1Maze and that's it. If you have more things to bring in, cutting the Shaman(if you have it) an extra land or even a knight might be correct.
I agree with this. On the play I might keep 1-2 Chalices in depending on what I expect to see out of the board, but on the draw I'd never leave chalice in against Shardless. Also agree with cutting a couple of Moxes. The matchup is super grindy and they're not really equipped to attack your manabase so the game is gonna be a grind one way or another, it's better to be able to top deck better cards in the late game than it is to have a super explosive start against them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilhas
So I haven't gotten the chance to test against shardless in a while, but when I did, I tried in game 1 to delay playing the chalice as long as possible. Basically the turn before a visions could happen, rather than playing it ASAP. My logic there is giving the shardless player the smallest and least convenient window to decay the chalice. Sometimes they spend a decay on something else and the chalice gets to do its job. Has anyone else tried this?
I tried go for it for awhile but later realised that they can out card advantage you and not be an issue if you kill goyfs on sight. Their cards are just bad.... The only problem we might face is with a timely Hymn and still they have to drop a goyf for pressure.... pseudo-vanilla 2/2 and 1/1 don't cause pain for usQuote:
Originally Posted by apocolyps6
Not knowing what your deck/sb looks like makes this harder to answer, but what i do, is:Quote:
Originally Posted by TheKingslayer
vs Miracles
-1 maze, -1 deathrite, -1 ooze, -2 knight, / +1 chandra, +1 garruk, +1 ghost quarter, +1 rec sage, +1 golgari charm
vs Shardless
-4 chalice, -1 mox, -1 gaddock, -1 karakas (maybe another land if they run more then one leovold) / +1 chandra, +1 garruk, +1 ghost quarter, +1 tabernacle, +2 swords to plowshares, +1 toxic deludge
Since you are putting way more games than me, how are you feeling about the miracles matchup? Favored? or still nail-biting.Quote:
Originally Posted by MatsOle
Did you tried Arlinn instead of Chandra? Seems better on the manabase but not sure on the overall effects....
Favored pre board, slightly unfavored post.
Never tried arlinn, kinda the reason i started playing chandra was to have something to play if blood moon hits, that is also good in grindy games. Also the double red doesn't come up much vs miracles/shardless if you keep it in mind when fetching.
will give her a go today in testing. Do you keep vods anywhere?Quote:
Originally Posted by MatsOle
They are usualy up on my channel for a week or so, but i haven't had much time to stream lately.
Thx.Quote:
Originally Posted by MatsOle
Any Loamers counting on going to Eternal Weekend?
@Pilhas I was convinced to try that approach the last time Shardless was brought up (still looking to test), just wondering about game 1 where the chalices still have to be in your deck.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MatsOle
Have you always been boarding out knights? I find pfire #3 and Mox #4 to be worse than knight in the matchup. Knight frequently needs to be answered even by itself, probably moreso from more target-heavy lists but its gotta be better than lategame a mox.
Quote:
Originally Posted by apocolyps6
Waiting on chalice can be good, but they also play hymns, so it can be very risky.
I haven't always done it like this, no, but i feel like this is the best way to sideboard that i've tried. I would never cut moxes vs miracles, as you never know if they are on back to basic, from the ashes or blood moon post board, and mox lets you keep playing regardless. I also feel punishing fire is far better then knight in this matchup. Knight is usually only good in the games were you have challice on one on the table, (less likely after board) or when you chain creatures, but i wouldn't really want to see knight in my starting hand vs miracles, so that seems unlikely.
Thanks for the explanation.
I remember pushing back against Kronberger's -2 mox for similar reasons. My list is better set up to deal with B2B and Moon, so that might be the deciding factor between 0 and 1 mox. I'm really sceptical about keeping all the pfires tho. Most miracles lists are so creature-light that I never remember wanting to see a second pfire.
I also frequently go on a Teeg-based pressure gameplan against them, rather than playing a more passive planeswalker based game. Its a D&T-style disruption + clock plan rather than Jund-style grind. I find that if I put them on the backfoot, I end up having to answer less things because it is the miracles player trying to stabilize. I don't think I can do a good job of explaining.
Hopefully this video shows a bit of what I mean. I didn't have to answer Counterbalance or Mentor because the opponent was under too much pressure/disruption to make full use out of either.
Tested Chandra yesterday and she seems great. The ability to resolve her a deal with an opposing Jace(usually they drop Jace+bounce a creature) and her ultimate is relevant which was a problem with other planeswalkers.
Went 5-3 at the Legacy classic for SCG Baltimore. 56th out of 204 players, although 15 points extended all the way up to 30th I believe, I just had crap breakers because I decided to start 0-2 before turning things around. I only won the die roll once in 8 rounds though which is obviously a nightmare for a chalice deck. Matchups were:
L: 1-2 vs. Eldrazi
L: 0-2 vs. ANT
W: 2-1 vs. B/G Turbo Depths
W: 2-1 vs. R/B Reanimator
L: 1-2 vs. W/B Death and Taxes (black splash was for Dark Confidant and that Kambal card)
W: 2-0 vs. ANT
W: 2-1 vs. ANT
W: 2-1 vs. Sultai Control
The loss to eldrazi was particularly vexing because I stomped him G1 and G2 I stabilized at about 8 life after a clutch Toxic Deluge and left him with 1 land, but even with Sylvan Library in play and drawing some fetches, the only creature I saw for the rest of the game was a Rec Sage, which attacked for 5 turns before a reality smasher kicked my teeth in. Any Knight or Loam or even Bob would've won me the game for sure.
List was:
1x Forest
2x Bayou
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
1x Badlands
1x Taiga
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Windswept Heath
4x Wasteland
3x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Karakas
1x Tranquil Thicket
1x Barren Moor
1x Cabal Pit
1x Maze of Ith
4x Dark Confidant
4x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Deathrite Shaman
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Grim Flayer
3x Liliana of the Veil
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Mox Diamond
2x Life from the Loam
2x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Sylvan Library
3x Abrupt Decay
3x Punishing Fire
SB
2x Swords to Plowshares
2x Thoughtseize
1x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1x Golgari Charm
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Kolaghan's Command
1x Boil
1x Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1x Garruk Relentless
3x Leyline of the Void
Kolaghan's Command was consistently awesome. Instant speed blow up your LED discard your Infernal Tutor with a second LED on the stack was a highlight of my day. Grim Flayer had tested well online, although I obviously didn't get a set of matchups where he was at his best. I really like how his ability has a bunch of different synergies with the rest of the cards in the deck (clear bad cards from sylvan library, set up a painless bob flip, turbo charge knight, etc.). If I had to run it back, I'd definitely find room for a second Deluge, D&T and BUG was everywhere, although ymmv (the east coast, and the mid-atlantic in particular has always had a ton of D&T and it only got worse after Conspiracy last year).
Anyway, deck is great. Keep on loaming everyone.
So I've been playing this deck for a few years now and just recently got into it on modo. I was struggling a bit at first but after watching Mats_Ole I've really stepped up my game and got to the point where I was doing really well. However recently I found the online metagame fairly hostile for loam and was struggling with the TNN BUG matchups.
After struggling and swapping things around I hit on a list this morning that I feel has amazing potential. Two 4-1's and a 5-0 later and I'm sure that this list is prime with a combined record of 13-2.
Lands (26):
4x Verdant Catacomb
1x Windswept Heath
1x Forest
1x Swamp
3x Grove of the Burnwillows
4x Wasteland
2x Bayou
1x Scrubland
1x Savannah
1x Badlands
1x Taiga
1x Tranquil thicket
1x Barren moor
1x Cabal Pit
1x Dryad arbor
1x karakas
1x maze of ith
Creatures (10):
4x Dark Confidant
4x KotR
1x Scooze
1x Teeg
Instants and Sorcs (11):
3x abrupt decay
3x pfire
2x loam
1x deluge
2x GSZ
Other (13):
4x Mox Diamond
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Lili of the Veil
2x Chains of Mephostopheles
SB(15):
2x Leyline of the Void
2x Swords to Plowshares
2x Thalia Guardian of Thraben
1x Abrupt Decay
1x Golgari Charm
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Garruk Relentless
1x Tabernacle
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Choke
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Maelstrom Pulse
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So I've done a few things differently from the stock (Mats_Ole) list. First off I cut the Deathrite shaman. I know the reason people like DRS but at the same time too often I find it eating my own graveyard or getting stuck behind a chalice and would rather play a "smoother" list. I also decided to move the maelstrom pulse to the board as I still wanted access to it but felt that it wasn't totally necessary before people bring in their hate cards. In these two slots I've decided to try out Chains of Mephostopheles.
Now there are plenty of hate cards in legacy so why chains? Well thanks for asking! I feel that chains does a few things for this deck that I felt I wanted. First and foremost I wanted a 2 cmc proactive threat that I could play. Essentially when you start the game with a mox diamond you really want to get on board immediately and currently you have 10 cards in scooze, teeg, bob and chalice. Now chains brings us up to 12 proactive 2 drops so that essentially when you have the mox open you have the huge haymaker to go with it. I'll let the Frank Karstens of the world run the numbers for me here but its definitely a change. Chains also does a great job of a pseudo chalice on 1 by making ponder terrible and brainstorm a legit -3 card play. Now it won't stop a litany of other 1 cmc problems but having the upside of turning off 3/4's of a Jace is the real deal too. It also lets you use your wastelands against an active Leovold and not feel horrible as well as making him pain free to remove.
The other notorious card missing here is sylvan library. Now don't get me wrong the card is great but in the matchups it matters I now already have chains and with adding 2 dead cards (chains) to the nonblue matchups I really needed an ace in the hole, enter Toxic Deluge. I will never again play loam without a deluge in the main. Not only does it deal with pesky TNN's and Leovolds but it blows a massivle hole in decks like DnT and Eldrazi. In deep s**t? Just 3 mana makes it all better. Now the card does have some anti-synergy with bob both costing life and bob always dying to even the smallest deluge but the upside is a literal 3 cmc wrath.
Now the other change to the stock list here is so subtle that most people probably missed it. I cut the second windswept heath for a swamp. This change is more relevant than ever as the number of ghost quarters goes up. DnT has adopted them as well as lands and theres even one hiding out in our sb as well. This isn't even to mention how amazing the card is in blood moon matchups. Always having access to abrupt decay mana under a moon is a godsend and honestly lets you play out your game with little more than an inconvenience. This also has the fantastic side effect of freeing us up space in our sideboard because now we don't need a card like Chandra for said matchups. Again the swamp pops up in the burn matchup (and U/R delver) where it laughs in the face of price of progress and lets you play a real game without fear of PoP. I've also found it to be invaluable in matchups where wastelands are abundant as you can often keep yourself afloat on mana even if they draw the dreaded quad wasteland hand. Essentially basic swamp is the real deal and it is amazing that this single land changes so many % points in so many matches but it really does.
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The Sideboard
Before I launch into it here let me say that this deck has the single most packed 75 of any deck I have ever played. No matter what configuration I use I always feel like there are at least 6 more cards that could fit into my board at any given time that are painful to not include.
2x Leyline of the Void
Honestly for the longest time I've been playing 3 and only recently moved back to 2. The R/B Reanimator matchup is so bad I honestly feel like I need 4 to win consistently. I'm torn not having the 3rd as well as I have had great success with leyline against a huge list of decks. (Mirror, Dredge, Storm, Oops, Lands, Reanimator, Nic Fit, Painter, and more) but for now I'm willing to roll the dice with 2 as the only matchups I really see it having a large impact on are Reanimator, Dredge, the mirror, lands, and oops which even combined is only about 10% of the meta. And again 3 leylines wasn't getting me over 50% against the R/B version of reanimator either way so for now I'm down to 2 as leyline can come down later on in the mirror and lands matchups and still be effective.
2x Swords to Plowshares
So this is a necessary evil. You don't stand a great chance against Eldrazi without these so for awhile I was only playing 1 to leave room for the 3rd leyline but I've lost enough to GeneralSharky and had enough close calls with DaSneakyPete to respect it and up this to 2 as I feel it will be a very common matchup. It also does good work in the DnT and the BUG matchups where you remove your chalices so its not only here for 1 deck.
2x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
So this spot is always a 2 of but its always thalia or ethersworn cannonist. Now cannonist is just strictly better in the storm and omnishow matchups so why use thalia? Well for one shes better in the burn matchup if only because she can handle goblin guide and eidolon better. But shes also a strong threat in the miracles matchup. Worth noting this is not considered a fact, I know Mats_Ole doesn't like thalia in the miracles matchup. I know you drop in often here so please tell me if I didn't understand correctly but Mats doesn't like thalia as she isn't conducive to your primary game plan against miracles which is to loam and loam until you get a pfire loop going to control their jace and snaps and mentor and such. Honestly I just disagree here. I feel like thalia hurts them far more than she hurts you and does significant damage before they eventually remove her. Couple this with the fact that my build with chains and a choke is far more restricting on miracles mana and card selection and I think thalia becomes that much more potent here.
1x Abrupt Decay
Honestly I will never play this deck without 4 decay. I tried it and I hated it, decay is an amazing card and is amazingly well positioned. There is a massive list of decks where you want as much of this effect as possible. I'm looking to move this back to the main and probably over 1 of the chains as chains is utterly dead in non blue matches but for the sake of testing I wanted to draw it as often as possible to test it out and see how bad it is when its bad. Then again decay is super dead in combo matchups so it might stay here.
1x Golgari Charm
I've always floated between 1 and 2 of these. Chains goes a long way in ruining the function of the TNN decks so I really only lose some points against DnT, Elves, Omnishow, and Enchantress. All but Omni are already good matchups and ones that I already have maindecked deluge to hedge for. I'd love a second it just doesn't fit.
1x Toxic Deluge
My god this card is powerful. I've considered playing 2 maindeck for awhile now and honestly I don't think I will ever go back to 0. TNN decks are on the rise so cards like this are necessary but the damage this card does to DnT or Elves or even Eldrazi is ghoulish to watch and I would play it regardless. Always keep the second one handy, it does to fair decks what Gaddock teeg does to ANT storm.
1x Garruk Relentless
The only extra threat card in my sb but we all know and love this one by now. Whether hes pumping out a never ending army to kill sad miracles players or bashing creatures to clear the way for knight this one is here to stay.
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Originally I didn't play this card for the sole reason that I figured I'd never own one in paper. Now I'm trying to figure out how in the hell I'm going to convince my fiance that $1k for a card is worth it. This card is absolutely bonkers against most fair decks. Whether its forcing Eldrazi to eat ancient tomb pings every turn to keep their board state or keeping elves perpetually tapped out Tabby is one fine magic card. Again fair decks cower in fear of the mighty tabernacle as this card warps the game mightily into your favor. Bonus points if you play it after storm empty's the warrens on you!
1x Ghost Quarter
People be greedy with their mana man. Whether its delver players who think its ok to not play basics or even other 4c loam players with no swamp ghost quarter puts in work time and time again sending people back to the stone age and being the cause of many a concession.
1x Choke
So this was the Chandra slot I told you about earlier. Turns out that swamp means you just don't need chandra to fight through the moon decks so you can open it up to a broader range of interests. Again I wanted a card that would help me against True Name Leovold decks and miracles alike. I also wanted a card to fight against the surprising number of people smart enough to play 3+ basics to escape even the greediest of ghost quarter loops. In the end choke is the perfect fit. Blue decks represent probably 75% of the winners metagame so if you're the one doing the winning you're going to be playing against islands. Choke is also unique in that it is an enchantment, something particularly difficult to interact with for any deck without abrupt decay. Now even the miracle players careful enough to fetch all basics and the sneak and show player cantripping to set up his combo find themselves without the requisite mana to complete their plans. Choke also represents what I think represents the critical mass of noncreature permanents that miracles can't deal with. Their wear/tears and councils judgment are already being taxed like mad with moxen, chalices, and chains so the choke is often the straw that broke the camels back. I've found that essentially whichever of these problem cards comes down last often comes in uncountered and unanswerable for the miracle player.
1x Reclamation Sage
This card does exactly what it needs to do at a fair price and is even kind enough to be green so you can tutor him up. Never leave home without your friendly neighborhood elf. This card honestly has more interactions and matchups than I can even list.
1x Maelstrom Pulse
Don't play this deck without one of these in your 75 somewhere. Legacy is a crazy scary wonderful place and sometimes you need to kill something dead no ifs ands or buts. This is another card I would love in the starting 60 and I'm sure it will wiggle its way in there again at some point.
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Notably Absent Cards
1-2x Thoughtseize
I used to run 2 of these in the board and if show and tell variants continue to become more popular they will come back. For now most of the combo decks are easy enough to beat as it, though reanimator seems to have my number.
1x Chandra, Torch of Defiance
Play a swamp you don't need her.
1x Grazing Gladeheart
Its true that burn is a god awful matchup for this deck and may Worth have mercy on your soul if you are on the draw without a chalice but I don't think the card is worth a slot in the sb as your sb slots are extremely valuable in this deck.
1x Containment Priest
If I was really worried about show and tell variants I would play thoughtseize first, and again leyline is the answer for reanimator.
1x Bojuka Bog
Honestly I always forget about this card, I think I would rather play the 3rd leyline but its certainly close.
If you've come this far thank you for reading, as you can probably tell I really love this deck and will never stop playing it. Cheers mates!