Grats on the win!
One question if you check back: Why not play the green brainstorm: Green Sun's Zenith?
Obviously you left it out for a reason.
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Grats on the win!
One question if you check back: Why not play the green brainstorm: Green Sun's Zenith?
Obviously you left it out for a reason.
In my opinion, the green sun variants are very reliant on Knight because Knight was just the best thing you could be doing. While it still the best thing my deck can do, it isn't the only thing - Deathrite, Liliana, and having a huge amount of flexible answers in Liliana and Decay means that you don't need Knights to win every game now. Another reason, and probably more important than the first, is that you are trading tutor effects for speed, and in my opinion, speed is where it's at. I'm a tempo player, which is why I'm running Diamonds and Deathrite - my answers are so powerful that sacrificing some card disadvantage for speed is worth while, especially when my answers make up for the disadvantage when the game goes long - it's like the advantage of delver without the disadvantage, which is why deathrite is so insane.Quote:
Originally Posted by lavafrogg
Congrats Dyvith!. We love to see junk/rock decks put on the top and from your event 2 rock decks made it in the high spot (1,2) i'm speechless and congrats again to you and to Eli :smile:
Since frogg already asked about no-GSZ in your deck, i have couple of questions regarding to your MD if you dont mind :smile:, i actually run a creature list like yours but my MD is loaded of lots of removals.
1) Since you said that you are a tempo player in the inclusion of mox diamond and deathrite, did you consider running hymn to tourachs? I know 6 pointed+2 liliana discards are so sweet, but turn 1 hymn via mox and land is kinda devastating to our opponent.
2) I notice that you run 3 decays and no pulse, is this comfortable to you or metacall in our local? I would love to hit jace or other 4 cmc annoying permanents
3) Will you consider added SFM package in your 60?
thanks :smile:
1) We cut hymn because it gave us less control and more randomness, which we ultimately didn't want.Quote:
Originally Posted by ryn ball_2
2) Decay was insane. I lost two games on the day to Jace, and while decay killing them would have been great, the problem was that I made mistakes to get to that point in the first place. The deck just doesn't need a way to kill jace in my opinion, you just go over him. It's possible that one decay should be a vindicate, or maybe a Lilliana but i really doubt it.
3) SFM is card advantage, but not tempo at all. I don't think Deathrite and SFM go in the same deck.
I don't really think you're looking at Green Sun's Zenith correctly, as you're aren't trading speed for tutor effects. You're trading a single first turn play for mana consistency, flexibility, and increased threat density. Green sun's zenith would only make the deck stronger, in my opinion, especially when you run zenith on top of shamans. You run it to be 1st turn mana accelerant (with dryad arbor) when you open with it, or a giant creature if you topdeck it after the first few turns. This flexibility is huge, as no card can setup early plays like that while also turning into a serious threat later. It lets you keep a large threat density while also having more mana accelerants, which in my opinion, gives you stronger plays overall. Mox diamond is a bit more of a tempo play, sure, since you'll have two mana available to you on turn one; however, I think this deck is more about raw power than that type of speed. To me it doesn't seem to make a big difference if you play a tarmogoyf turn 1 or turn 2, this deck is most likely to just play a big creature (or confidant for card advantage) and ride it to victory. The card disadvantage is also very real, and whenever you have a hand like land/land/mox there's a very real potential to not get your third mana soon (or worse, if they have wasteland), but that hand seems so much better when it's land/land/zenith since you can hit three mana for Knight or Liliana, or still have two mana if faced with wasteland. I seriously doubt you'll win very many games because of mox diamond when compared to having zenith a an accelerant which also increases your threat density.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dyvith
So, the above was an argument for zenith just based on one fact alone, but there are also two very important tutor targets which make it even better: Qasali Pridemage and Gaddock Teeg. These are two great cards that I really think the deck benefits from having consistent access to, which is another thing that Zenith can do for you. You might thing that, "Oh we have decays, so pridemage isn't really needed," but in reality having 6+ ways to find an answer to an artifact or enchantment compared to 3 will make a huge difference when you really do need to find that answer. Additionally, combo can be a struggle (which you agree with, given the 2 canonists and 1 Teeg in the board), so having access to Gaddock Teeg more reliably is also pretty important there. Getting a Teeg is also great against a miracles player when you already have another creature in play (to shut off Terminus most notably, but also Jace).
+1 to Valtrix but I want to stay out of this one for the most part as they topped a tourney and I have not...stupid work.....
I am saying that this deserves a real post instead of an edit due to actual content to discuss but...
Has anyone been disappointed in Knight of the Reliquary as of late?I have been finding him very slow in many of todays match ups. Where I have been playing SFM and Knight I am thinking about SFM and Goyf as my beater of choice. It sucks against Emrakul but I have not played against a griselbranding/emrakul player in a while(omniscience is the better choice right now) and DRS gives us a chance against reanimator.
I don't really know...I have not chain wastelanded someone in awhile, nor have I found myself doing anything but attacking, which goyf can do... One last pro is that I can stabilize my mana base a little more than average.
How has the knight been for you guys?
Your reasons for running green suns is why I have a worldly tutor in the board. Maybe the deck needs green sun, but I never felt like it was what I needed. Also, I'm really not on the arbor plan, it makes mana solo bad. Also, land land diamond is one of the strongest openers you can have. With two basics and ten fetches, you are more than likely to fetch basic swamp and use diamond and now you have a nigh perfect, non wasteable mana base which can cast all but seven cards in your deck or all but four of your cards with any land ( you need either a green or white mana to cast knight off swamp diamond where as liliana is cast off swamp diamond anything )
Quote:
How has the knight been for you guys?
I think it depends on your build. It's still VERY good for me, so I'd never take it out. If you're looking to cut 3 drops, though, I'd say cut Pulse before you cut Knight. Knight's pretty amazing.
-Matt
Running Deathrite Shaman means that you can run out a turn two knight and just waste them out for the rest of the game. This -is- a thing you can do regularly. Also, a turn one mox means that you can play a Knight on turn two as big as a 5/5, which means that against decks like RUG, if they don't counter it, they are just dead.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
I don't play pulse... I'm looking to switch Knight for goyf straight up.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
Then perhaps EvaGreen is more your thing?Quote:
Originally Posted by lavafrogg
I play a GSZ heavy list with SFM and Lilliana's for sure not Eva Green.
Maybe clarity can be achieved with an actual list?Quote:
Originally Posted by lavafrogg
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Quasali Pridemage
Artifacts: 2
1 Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
Sorceries: 8
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Thoughtseize
Planeswalkers: 2
2 Liliana of the Veil
Instants: 7
4 Swords to plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
Lands: 23
1 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
3 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Maze of Ith
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Karakas
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor
Sideboard: 15
3 cabal therapy
3 Choke
3 Thalia
1 batterskull
1 sword of light and shadow
1 scavenging ooze
3 path to exile
My list loves GSZ and SFM at the moment and the sideboard does everything i need it to do.
The uber amazing deathrite shaman is made even better by the addition of equipment, as anything with an active jitte is gg in most cases. I really want to find room for the 3rd Liliana and might cut a GSZ target for her.
Still the stone-cold nuts, I wouldn't ever consider playing less than 4. I play a threat-lite type of build (4 Knights and then a GSZ package, 4 Deathrite Shamans.) That means I need to have access to Knight in most games or I can't finish off fast enough before opponent's crawl back into the game. I liken Knight to a PW...which is why I also use 1x Garruk and 2x Liliana. They all provide incremental advantage the longer you use them and they support your other creatures really well. I have found that Knight + Deathrite Shaman can win games by themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by lavafrogg
If you find Knight to be slow...maybe its because your lands need to be tweaked. Maybe its time to dust off Horizon Canopy again, or even Sejiri Steppe so you can finish games in a hurry.
I'm a little biased towards Knights because I'm playing maindeck Pernicious Deeds, too. Knight is often playing the utility role to provide inevitability for me, supported by board control. By the time I actually attack with a Knight it is usually 7/7 or better. By that standard, he isn't slow in the purest sense, in fact quite fast as a 3 turn clock. He just takes time to enter the fray, more like a finisher.
I haven't been playing for a few weeks, but I understand most of Dyvitch's list and agree 100% :p
If you go to a creature-based, gsz-dependant build, you are playing a bad GW, because GW has a more stable manabase, and more space to use a more effective creature toolbox... adding black to that mixture contributes very little, in my opinion. I agree that BGW can play the tempo-oriented very well (the so many referred Dark Horizons) and it doesn't need GSZ in that build.
Ryn_ball and myself have been using that kind of approach.
@ Dyvitvh:
I just want to know: why 2 moxen? Mox is a good card on the opening hand, and the "lost card" compensates itself with a faster board presence. @ mox minimizes the chance of getting one in the opener, and you might as well end up drawing one at random, when you need a better card... I don't know if I was clear enough... but explain me the line of thought that lead you to play 2 instead of 3...
The point was to have goyfs in for the non-interactive match ups and even the tempo/aggro match ups where 3 mana is the late game.
Hey you know me, always trying new things.
Some of them are not the best, it was just a question and has no testing or validity behind it.
Thank you for your responses though. I am going to keep goyfs out of my 75 for now.
This is pretty close to the list I am loving at the moment. The only problem I've found with it is that combo running leyline of sanctity has you pretty hard over a barrel. Abrupt decay doesn't touch it and it negates most of your combo hate which leaves you in a race to win. I'm sure I don't have to tell you racing combo without disruption is pretty tough for any mid-range deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by lavafrogg
I'll be shaving numbers at the moment to fit in some Shamans. However, I will not be cutting Pulses. I was playing Miracles all night, and you really want at least 1-2 of them. Sometimes you cannot maintain enough creature board presence as pressure on Planeswalkers. But, I think there's a few slots that could use a good pruning (I'm looking at you, Qasali Pridgemage).
-Matt