In what matchups can't we afford to just DDD on the first turn? Both during first game and after sideboard.
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In what matchups can't we afford to just DDD on the first turn? Both during first game and after sideboard.
never understood why it is called DDD
Generally you wouldn't want to DDD against faster combo and decks with DRS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dziga Murnau
Side note:
With the LED build I would say most anyway. Slow dredging is not as good as it once was. The inevitability is much worse in our version than in Manaless because we hit things like Careful Study, LED, Breakthroughs, Lands, etc.. that don't facilitate our combo.
@Snorlax. Its very simple. Draw, Discard, Dredge. Rinse and repeat... It just denotes the strategy used.
DrawQuote:
Originally Posted by snorlaxcom
Discard
Dredge, bro.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.
Funny, I always thought you guys were playing Ding, Dong, Ditch. Or the ever popular Dis-Ding-Dong. Kinda changes my t1 lines now...
Last night I was toying with my sideboard, and I was thinking about this card:
Wear // Tear
It's a bit like Nature's Claim, but without it's specific drawbacks.
It doesn't give our opponent life and it can destroy a Chalice on one.
Lastly, as opposed to Decay it's castable from almost combination of two lands we can have.
Only drawback: costs two to kill Cage or trigger a Relic/Crypt.
Worth a try, right?
With regards to Wear/Tear, I don't like that it costs 2 mana. Considering how few lands we run, I don't expect to hit 2 mana in that many games. It just too unreliable for me to play it
I have a question for those running Memorys Journey in their sideboard. How effective is it and what matchups do you bring it in against?
I just recently added it to mine, but I didn't get a chance to utilize it so I can't comment on its effectiveness. However, I'm bringing it in against any deck packing Extirpate or Surgical Extraction; Cast it targeting whichever card they're targeting with their Surgical and shuffle it back into your deck to avoid all copies getting exiled. Its not bad against decks with DRS since you can blank one of its activations, and you can also bring it in against Reanimator to shuffle their reanimation target back into their deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by gibbousm
Some other small utility with the card:
Shuffle Narcomoebas back into your deck
Shuffle your opponents cards back into their Deck (mess up a brainstorm, blank Snapcaster, Probably other little things, but i'm blanking.
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I recently got top 8 at a LGS. 6 Rounds of Swiss with cut to Top 8. I lost in the 1st round of top 8 though due to some unfortunate mulligans games 2 and 3 against Grixis Delver. We had decklists as well; aside from the 4 maindeck DRS he was only packing 2 Surgical Extraction which gave me confidence I could take the match, but alas it wasn't meant to be my day. hah.
My Dredge Decklist is the same, however, I took out my 12th Dredger this time around and finally added a 3rd Street Wraith.
Matchups:
Round 1: BURN, 2-0
G1: Did my thing
G2: He opened with Top which was a surprise to me and it also made his deck a bit slower. Eventually I'm able to Dread Return an Iona on Red to seal the game in my favor.
Round 2: Infect, 2-1
G1: Did my thing
G2: I threw the game away as I didn't expect the final two cards in my opponents hand to be invigorate and vines for exactsies. Granted I couldn't have blocked his Blighted Agent, but I did have an Ashen Rider in my GY that I decided to Exile via my Ichorid. The odds of hitting my 1 of Dread Return were small, but I did and I could have used it to Exile the Blighted Agent. oh wellz. I attack him down to set him up for lethal next turn, but I get Combo'd.
G3. Land, LED, Breakthrough, Faithless looting... GG
Round 3: Goblins, 0-2
G1. I wasn't expecting this deck tbh, but I start off a bit slow and he closes me out with Skirk Prospector taking my bridges and a Goblin Sharpshooter than I can't beat since all my creatures are X-1s...
G2. He opens with Lackey into a Seige Gang Commander and Earwig squad.. I don't really do much and die to the short clock.
Round 4: UR Delver, 2-0
G1. Do my thing
G2. I don't face any pressure and have enough time to assemble Ichorid recursion netting me a good amount of zombies each turn, until I receive the concession.
Round 5: Paired down to Big Red, 2-1
G1. He kills me on his turn 1. Ancient Tomb, Simian Spirit Guide into Seething Song into Sneak Attack Activate--> Griselbrand; draw 14 cards --> Simian spirit Guide Activate Sneak Attack again --> Emrakul attack I'm dead. X_X
G2. He mulls to 5 and I'm able to combo him out via Breakthrough.
G3. He has just enough mana to drop his Sneak Attack into play, but can't activate it. On my turn 1 I Cabal Therapy'd myself to bin 2 Golgari Grave Trolls. On my turn I Breakthrough and Dread Return Ashen Rider to exile his Sneak Attack. I also am able to Therapy away the Emrakul that he was waiting to drop next turn.
Round 6: ID
Overall Record after swiss: 4-1-1
Round 1 of Top 8. Grixis Delver
Note: Opponent opened up with DRS on turn 1 all 3 games.
G1. Do my thing
G2. Mull to 5 and lose.
G3. Mull to 5 and lose.
I guess I could have mulled down to 4, but the components were there I just needed to hit something specific, however, the early DRS pressure left me with limited resources and less tricky plays.
Overall I felt pretty good about the day and I got to go home with a Sylvan Library Commander's Arsenal Foil Edition. Not bad.
After much hemming and hawing, I've gone back to including two Putrid Imps in my maindeck. Finally decided I'd had enough of hands with 2-3 looters/Breakthroughs and not finding enough fuel for Ichorids. So far, testing has been positive: I'm getting tangibly greater numbers of Ichorids with a surplus of dredgers in the 'yard, and I've had a better time of beating down without relying as much on hitting all my Narcos and Bridges.
I still don't really like the Imp: it's slower than our looting effects, it often gets picked off pretty quickly (esp. by people who don't seem to have figured out that it's such a trivial piece of the deck), and it's probably the least useful castable spell to draw in an opener. I don't really see any advantage to running Street Wraith, though, because the discard outlet the PImp offers seems much more useful than the off-chance option to cycle back a dredger. So what are the principal advantages to running Wraith over Imp? I know that it can be useful to bring a dredger back in the face of graveyard hate, but I feel like we'll be set back so far if we don't have a Looter that it won't help us much. Draw-going in the face of any threat is really bad, and if we need to waste turns to hit eight cards in hand, I think we're probably dead anyway. So are there other things about the Wraith I'm missing? Anybody have further info that's up to date? Holding out hope for some interesting options in Shadows over Innistrad, but I'm preparing for the worst.
A couple of other questions:
—What's the current thinking regarding the best looter to run as a 3-of? I'm pretty reluctant to cut back to 3 Breakthrough because it's so powerful when it works, but it seems that the prevailing wisdom is that it's also our least versatile looting effect. Careful Study is much less powerful, but it's a better card with which to open, esp. if we lack LEDs or other useful opening cards. I'm torn between 3x Careful Study, 4x Breakthrough and 4x Careful Study, 3x Breakthrough.
—Has anyone been testing a higher concentration of [EDIT: AAAAH! Dread Returns. Misspoke bigtime here] and reanimation targets against Chalice decks? I'm beginning to think that we might (MIGHT) be able to board out some 1-cmc looters that'll get countered anyway for a third Dread Return and one or two additional big dudes. I figure that if we're likely to lose the ability to cast Careful Study or Faithless Looting, playing DDD might be more viable with a greater threat-density. I haven't had the opportunity to test it yet.
Any and all feedback would be appreciated greatly!
Hello !
I really don't know if I'm posting in the right thread, so feel free to move it to the appropriate section :)
So, I was thinking about entering Legacy with a Dredge deck (considering it's fairly cheap for its power level) and I started net decking and studying every Primer I could find on the archetype. And I must say that this one is the most thorough I came accross.
I'm building towards this list and I was wondering if it's good enough before I start ordering the cards I don't have:
(sorry, I don't know how to put the thumbnails on this forum yet... :( )
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==> LED-Less Dredge
I went LED-Less because of the enormous price boost the card has seen the past week (it's over 100 € now !) thanks to it being on the reserved list and not being reprinted in Eternal Masters.
I also added the Bloodghast game plan which I found really fun (is it a right way to go ?)
CREATURES (28)
4 Ichorid
4 Bloodghast
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Golgari Thug
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
2 Flame-Kin Zealot
SPELLS (18)
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
2 Dread Return
LANDS (14)
4 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Dakmor Salvage
///
SIDEBOARD:
4 Firestorm
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Nature's Claim
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Utility slots ( Iona , Ashen Rider , Ancestor's Chosen , Terrastodon , Elesh Norn , etc.)
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I'm not at all familiar with the Legacy meta and format in general.
So if someone could walk me through the process of upgrading my list, it would be great and could save me a lot of time (and money) ! :laugh: :laugh:
Thank you :)
Here are some Pros for continuing to include PIMP:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce
- Black creature as food for Ichorid.
- Creature to Sacrifice to Dread Return; If you're running more than 1 DR then I would consider PIMPs.
- Recurable Discard Outlet; You can keep binning GGT which is the best Dredger.
- Eats removal (which will net you zombies if you sandbag any Bridges in your hand and discard them in response) or eats a Swords to Plowshares that wont hit your Ichorid, a more vital part of the deck.
I wouldn't call IMP a trivial part of the deck even if its utility is valued less. If the opponent was smart they would get rid of it sooner than later as their removal isn't worth much outside of hitting their own creatures to exile your bridges. Would you rather not Dredge 6 cards every time instead of just 5 or 4 because you have no other way to bin your GGT?
I still personally run 2 PIMPS; its not uncommon to have it get FOW'd on turn 1 either. It can be a great bait spell since your opponent doesn't know whether you have any other discard outlets in your hand or not.
I'm not an advocate of strictly replacing PIMP with Street Wraith as they do different things and serve different roles. I'm just a proponent of including Street Wraith in the deck in general. I've already explained multiple times within this thread as to why its really good; sift through the thread or find my posts either way.
I just recently added my 3rd Wraith over my 12th Dredger. Here is the current iteration of my list:
4x Gemstone Mine
4x Cephalid Coliseum
4x Mana Confluence
4x Bridge from Below
3x Breakthrough
1x Dread Return
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Faithless Looting
4x Careful Study
3x Street Wraith
2x Putrid Imp
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Golgari Grave Troll
3x Golgari Thug
4x Narcomoeba
4x Ichorid
While I haven't attended all the monthly tournaments at my LGS, here are some of the results with my current Street Wraith build (1st three decks listed): http://tcdecks.net/results.php?token...ide=&strict=on
I run 3 Breakthrough as it means that I will at least see it in some openers, but 4 is overkill. Its the most powerful, but the worst outlet outside of LED. I can see a Meta where Combo is all over the place and we need to bring back 4. Or if you really want it stick the last 1 in the board and bring it in against faster decks. or Try Winds of Change ;D /sarcasm
Either way I hope I shed some light on the discussion. I don't have much to say on the Dread Return comment regarding Chalice decks except...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce
I share a sentiment closer to the 2nd Comment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce
But if you ARE DDD'ing then I would make an even greater argument for Street Wraith, because of its already known impact in Manaless Dredge which is primarily reliant on the DDD Strategy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Que
Man...I'd love to be able to cut a dredger, but I just don't feel like I can. I have way too many dredges for 5 or 6 that don't seem to hit a dredger.
Maybe I'm just unlucky?
I'm almost to the point of wondering whether the problem is actually the sleeves (only use that brand on my dredge deck). Cards feel 'clumped' together. Maybe I should try shuffling for about twice as long when I play this deck. :rolleyes:
Dredge took down the MTGO Legacy Challenge yesterday. Wooo!
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles...ier-2016-03-13
Solid!Quote:
Originally Posted by Oestrus
Hello, Laewenn!Quote:
Originally Posted by Laewenn
Seems to me like you're on the right track with what you posted. If you can't throw down for the LEDs, that's tough, but it looks like what you've got should make do reasonably well. It's easy to forget that, powerful as LED is, there are only four in the deck, and in a whole lot of games it doesn't show up.
Regarding Bloodghast, I actually think it's a really good card to include if you've got the maindeck space. The major advantage of the Bloodghast is that you don't have to use graveyard-based fuel for it to come back, but it's not as strong as Ichorid and doesn't give you automatic zombies. If you're drawing into too many recurring creatures in testing, you'll want to cut these before you cut Ichorids.
With all that having been said, if you've had the chance to test your build, I would give it a whirl with added Faithless Looting before trying out the Bloodghasts.
Absolutely run a full quad of Golgari Thugs. A lot of people (incl. some very successful players) are running only three, but I can't count the number of times I've just bricked on finding dredgers and mulliganed to three (or worse) with the LED shell. Without the drawing power that LED gives you, you're going to want at least 12 dredge creatures; I'm not enthusiastic about Shambling Shell, but you might consider one or two.
Dakmor Salvage is not very helpful here, so I'd cut it for more Thugs. It's slow, it doesn't fuel Ichorid, and it's your least effective dredger. N.B.: because you can recur it to your hand, it looks like a good card to run with Bloodghast. The problem is a) you're dredging fewer cards to bring one to your hand (setting you back by half a turn or more) and b) you won't get the chance to use a Salvage more than once unless your opponent Wastelands one.
Your reanimation package seems good, but I feel like you're really going to want a Griselbrand if you're running more than one Dread Return in your main. I cut FKZ from my maindeck last week because I realized that there was only one game I could remember in which getting it saved me, and that was several months ago. It's great against quick combo decks and aggressive strategies, but it's really not that important for other matchups. G-Brand, on the other hand (rhyme?), is stellar. He gets pretty win-more if the game passes a certain point, but if it hasn't, he's rocket-fuel. I don't think I've lost after bringing him back a single time. You just dredge so many cards so quickly that you'll be hard-pressed to NOT find enough stuff to get the kill within a turn or two. So I'd cut one FKZ for a G-Brand. You might want to keep the second FKZ because you're going to be running a bit slower than LED builds, but two feels like too many.
In short, I think adding black creatures and discard outlets (maybe 2x Tireless Tribe?) in place of Dakmor Salvage and one or two of the Bloodghasts should help you with consistency. Running more cantrips will increase your odds of dredging heavily in one turn, but without LED, I'm not sure whether you'll have better consistency with Faithless Looting or with Bloodghast, etc. You might consider altering your reanimation package, but the deck seems solid as-is. The way I would approach the question of how to alter the list is to think of what cards increase your threat density and/or your number of ways to just combo off quickly. LED gives major advantages for the latter, but it cuts down on our threat density. So I would try to increase that to offset the loss in speed and explosivity from losing LED.
Que, thanks for the input! I'm with Alaska regarding the twelfth dredger, but I can see plenty of reason for running 11 instead. Out of curiosity, when you're deciding whether to keep a hand, are there ever times you keep hands without dredgers? If so, what criteria do you use to determine whether it's a good idea to keep?
You made a really good point about Street Wraith. I'll test both the extra Dread Return-reanimation target and the Street Wraiths when I get the chance and see what I can find out.
Well I would say that this deck has historically ran 11 Dredgers for the most part. It wasn't until I think Timo Schunemann brought us the Quadlaser build that we saw the full set of 12. I have been on that plan ever since and most of my results have been with 12 dredgers. If anything I'm giving into the convention of old switching back to 11, however, the decision was only made after I added the 3rd Street Wraith. And its not just you guys there are times when I brick on dredges and it can be costly.. it happens.. remember that when playing this deck, but the odds are on your side.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce
If my opener doesn't have a dredger then I better have some number of Careful Study and/or Faithless Looting to dig a few cards deeper. The notion is that those draw spells outside of leading you to a dredger will also allow you to hit other powerful cards like perhaps Breakthrough, LED, Cephalid Coliseum, or more Careful Study/Faithless Looting. You're also slightly better off when on the draw as you get to see an extra card; or if you took a mulligan you can even Scry to check whether you have a Dredger coming up. If your hand is bogged down with other cards that don't do anything in your hand (Bridge from below, Ichorid, Narcomoeba) instead of multiple draw spells with perhaps an LED or Coliseum I would say toss it back.
Well I was simply pointing out your contradiction. You want to be able to DDD in the face of Chalice, but then you denounce your own strategy when making the comment about us being in a losing proposition or "dead already" if we waste turns building up to Eight cards. I was just confused. xDQuote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce
Thanks again for the response!Quote:
Originally Posted by Que
I probably should've phrased things better: I was trying to say that, any turn after turn 1, we aren't in a good spot if we're drawing off the top against any number of threats. (I still think that there are times when we'll need to wait and topdeck something like Nature's Claim, esp. against Leyline or RiP, but I don't think this is a matchup in which that'll work because of the Chalice.)
I agree that playing DDD isn't good on turn 1 either, but that there's a real risk of getting hit with a Chalice and not being able to cast any of our 1-drops right out of the gate. So I wasn't advocating topdecking cards later than that because we can't afford to do that when we're going to get steamrolled, but I was thinking that maybe we'd have better odds pulling some of our looters and replacing them with more heavy hitters. As I think about it now, though, I don't feel like we'll have the time to dredge "naturally" if we're up against threats, either.
I like the idea of running the Wraiths in that situation, and I'm wondering whether running both Wraiths and extra reanimation stuff would get us there. Say, replacing Careful Study with 3x Wraith (I'm not maining them at the moment) and a Dread Return, and maybe taking out a Faithless Looting or an LED for something like Archon.
I'm just throwing ideas out there. It occurred to me a while back that manaless builds (for all their flaws) might have a better matchup against the Eldrazi simply because they don't need to play many spells to function, so they wouldn't get locked by a Chalice. That got me thinking that maybe we'd be in a good position if we were to cut back on the accelerants we won't get to cast against Chalice (or maybe Thorn) and upped the number of heavy-duty cards in our deck. I feel like the Street Wraith idea is a really good one because it lets us get more dredges when we can't cast our looters. Do you think it'd be effective if we ran both? I haven't had the (mis?)fortune of facing Eldrazi with this deck yet in a tournament, so if you've got any more info on what seems to work best, I'm all ears!
IME, I've run the typical quadlazer, 3x Pimp, 2/2 split, 2/3 or 3/2 split, and a full 4 Wraith at various times.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce
Whenever I've run one exclusively over the other, I've wanted to fit the other in there. I don't want less than 4 total (or either) generally, as I like Icky food to be plentiful.
I generally run a mix of them, between 4 or 5 cards total. To me, the whole point of running Wraith is DRS, and increasing your speed in the first 2 turns.
I don't regularly run lots of Dread Returns or DR targets, so the benefit of a full 4 Pimps isn't something I'm chasing.
Dakmor has it's uses postboard, as it can be that 2nd land you grab after a T1 B-thru. I've used it with Abrupt Decay from the side previously...Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce
But if you're looking for a rainbow land to use with Bloodghast, another to consider may be Undiscovered Paradise.
I'm not saying either of these are great choices, just offering up some thoughts...
Ill be heading out tonight with Dredge (been playing some Storm lately), looking to forward to it.
I love all the talk here. My personal list that I continue to have much success with (won a 24 man two weeks ago, won a side event at gp D.C.) runs 13 land, 3 wraiths, 3 ichy, 1 d.return and the rest fours. I've been almost half a year without putrid and really have only missed him on rare occasions, I'll admit I'm an aggressive dredge player as "going for it" has paid in spades for me. Three ichorids has been optimal and I rarely want the fourth ( I dare all of you to go down to three). Breakthrough is an auto four of and with more chalice around I think the value of u/x gets around that in a nice way, not to mention led and breakthrough is soooo good, like my favorite thing to do in magic. Like slave I'm not a huge dread return guy. Dread return equals zombies and a big grave-troll and this is part of the reason why I've esqewed putrid. Wraith can draw a card! Sometimes you need that draw from a deck that rarely likes to. On the draw looking at two( three if you include the scry) cards to find what you need has pretty good odds of finding that missing piece, especially when mulling down to a small hand. Wraith has so many more applications than responding to a Drs activation. Many times I've cast a looting, cycled wraith and held priority the whole time and cracked led.....that extra dredge can be huge (we know how important getting narco or therapy in the yard is early on).
I agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmythegreek
Went 2-3 last night. I beat Elves, ANT, beaten by RG Charbelcher & Miracles. Didn't see much dedicated hate.
Elves and ANT were both close, Belcher was there before I could kill their hand, Miracles was close and long, but he kept exiling my threats.
I forfeited the last match due to the guy acting like a whiney child. The whiney child was playing Reanimator. After I won game1 he turned it on.
The way he was carrying on I just thought going home was a better option than finishing the last game of the night. Life's short and all that. :rolleyes:
Anyway;
My list was 3 Icky, 13 Land, 4 Wraith, 4 of all the staples.
Side of: 3 Claims, 3 DR's + 2 Iona, 3 Firestorm, 3 Petals, 1 Ingot Chewer.
Wraith was good. Still not sure of the side, I was aiming to use Iona to perform shut downs, I didn't manage to resolve it once.
Any thoughts here?
I seem to face Miracles a fair bit. Anyone have a good win-ratio-% against Miracles?
What do you prefer to use from the side against them?
....and still nothing I like from the new set for dredge.
Invasive Surgery might be the only card of use but it's too narrow, and Sinister Concoction isn't an effect I'm looking for.
Anyone see anything of use for us?