Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dragonslayer_90
Thanks Barbed Blightning! What sideboard cards do you think are absolutely essential? Don't need a whole 15 but I just want a skeleton of the deck with some sb slots.
Do you have an expected metagame? It can change the sideboard drastically with this deck, the only mainstays for me no matter what are 2-3 Rest in Peace, 2 Cataclysm, 1 Manriki Gusari, and 1-2 Graff Cage. I'm also not a fan of Cavern of Souls since the re-addition of Serra Avenger. It can make her really hard to cast if you drop Cavern on Human/Artificer and you start drawing Avengers. I am liking the idea of 2 Horizon Canopy along with 10 plains and the usual suspects(23 land).
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dragonslayer_90
Thanks Barbed Blightning! What sideboard cards do you think are absolutely essential? Don't need a whole 15 but I just want a skeleton of the deck with some sb slots.
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1-2 E-Tutors (if that is your thing)
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Rest in Piece
other meta slots
I stopped running Cavern a while ago. Being uncounterable isn't as important as having a rock-solid manabase. Too often, I couldn't activate my Stoneforges or cast my :w::w: stuff due to Cavern. It's also another Wasteland target. I would rather run 1 Canopy.
And I have yet to hear why people are running lists with only 3 Flickerwisps. It's THE workhorse of the deck and it has won me countless games, especially in combination with Vials. Sure, sometimes it's just a 3/1 flyer that untaps one of your lands, but the raw power of Flickerwisp tricks far outweight that.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Thanks for all the input guys I really appreciate it! I'm not building a D&T list for a specific metagame, at least once I go back to school. Where I am for the summer I can play anything because they do 75 proxy. Once summer is done though I'm back to being limited to what I actually own. Sadly don't have rishadan ports and multiple karakas. In the near future I may bring it to the LGS I currently play at, but I'll probably play the deck on cockatrice for a bit first. By the way, what should I know about Elves? I hear it's the worse matchup for the deck. Does play even matter in that MU?
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dragonslayer_90
Thanks for all the input guys I really appreciate it! I'm not building a D&T list for a specific metagame, at least once I go back to school. Where I am for the summer I can play anything because they do 75 proxy. Once summer is done though I'm back to being limited to what I actually own. Sadly don't have rishadan ports and multiple karakas. In the near future I may bring it to the LGS I currently play at, but I'll probably play the deck on cockatrice for a bit first. By the way, what should I know about Elves? I hear it's the worse matchup for the deck. Does play even matter in that MU?
Play always matters. D&T can beat any deck. However, Elves escapes our pseudo-control rather easily since they play the one angle we can't attack: spamming creatures. Their mana ramp also shrugs off our, by comparison, feeble attempts to constrict it.
However, there are some things we can do, such as:
Sticking a Jitte on a dude ASAP. Next priority equipment is SoFI.
Revoker on Heritage Druid, Symbiote, then whatever hurts the most in that order.
Even Thalia can do work. She's not priority, but if they appear to be stumbling on mana, toss her into the ring.
Mindcensor is a brutal hate card. Turn 3 he should be coming down, or at the very least in response to something.
Finally, remember that Flickerwisp is a versatile tool. When sideboarding, do no cut them first (Thalia and Avenger are my first picks). Remember that you can flicker blockers to get a Jitte activation, disrupt a Druid trio, lessen a Hoof trigger's count and deprive them of a crucial land or permanent for a turn.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barbed Blightning
]
@Roob: I used to hate cavern, but if you have a meta filled with counterbalance it is the best land in the deck. Besides, it's for forcing through powerful cards, like Thalia, Crusader or Mom. Plus Wisp can reset it.
I don't like this logic, I'm sorry. If you want to force through powerful cards with a one of in a 0 cantrip deck, playing a 1-of land is like trying to live in a pipe dream. I feel like you will lose more games because of Cavern than you will win, especially since counter spells don't really bother us most of the time anyways. I feel like in Legacy, if you're playing a non-blue deck, your 1-ofs have to be really high impact with very little downside to be worth playing at all. I just don't like the idea of a bad Vial #5 that can randomly make your manabase very susceptible to Wasteland with very little upside. It's basic mathematics really, how often it actually helps you versus how often it hurts you. I'm not saying that playing it is 100% wrong, but I feel like it doesn't pull its weight to desrve a slot as a 1-of. Please just try playing 2 Canopy for at least 20ish matches and tell me it has been consistently terrible. I've just never been a fan of cards that can be rarely amazing, but at the same time less than stellar on average. Also keep in mind that my opinion is based on how many double white cards are in the 75 you choose to play. I do have more WW cards than most lists I've seen around, I play 3 Serra, 3 Crusader, and usually 1 Mangara plus 2 Cataclysm in the board (Forgive the rambling, slightly intoxicated over here:)).
EDIT @ Barbed- I feel like the most compelling argument you came up with in your brief response to me is that it can be reset with Flickerwisp. Sure, that is definitely bound to come up eventually. But if you're as experienced with D&T as I think you are, you should know that ~90% of the time you're Flickering your own stuff, you're in a fairly good / really good position to win anyway. Premature Flickering is a sign of a weak/inexperienced D&T player in my opinion, because he is one of the few ways we have to blow open an even game/board state, among other things. As a general rule, I've adopted the no Flicker rule. Basically, you don't want to Flicker unless you are getting supreme value out of him, or increasing your clock by at least a turn. There will obviously be exceptions to this self coined rule depending on the matchup and/or gamestate you find yourself in, but we don't play the card because it's a 3/1 flier, we play the card because of it's versatility.
Looking forward to your reply, I will be on this deck if I choose to play at the SCG this weekend (money is really tight at the moment). I've been crushing my locals every time I play this deck (against a lot of very good Legacy specialists). It's either because I haven't played the same deck practically ever or it's because this deck is as powerful as I think it is.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning
When sideboarding, do no cut them first (Thalia and Avenger are my first picks).
I do this too as it leaves in the most disruption. But damn if it doesn't prevent me from switching to offense. All my creatures left are too tiny. Ya gotta get lucky and draw a Crusader or a Mystic to even attack. I suppose it is just a symptom of "friggin' Elves!" syndrome.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Finn
I do this too as it leaves in the most disruption. But damn if it doesn't prevent me from switching to offense. All my creatures left are too tiny. Ya gotta get lucky and draw a Crusader or a Mystic to even attack. I suppose it is just a symptom of "friggin' Elves!" syndrome.
The way I see it, if you are trading dudes for dudes it's still hurting your opponent (that being said, it does suck if you attack with say Revoker). Fortunately Canonist has a little bit of beefy on her, though.
@DS90: I forgot to list sideboarded cards. I would use:
2 Canonist
1-2 Cage
1-2 Needle (Symbiote>Ranger>DRS)
1 Path(risky), Sunlance, even councils judgment
Turn one cage, turn two Canonist, turn three SFM into jitte is your godplay.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Hi, guys! I'm new to the deck. I want to get some idea to fight 12 post. that match up is tough, especially they needle on our wasteland. perhaps we just give up mana control plan and cast all our dudes as fast as possible?
thanks for any suggestions.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
entreri_fans
Hi, guys! I'm new to the deck. I want to get some idea to fight 12 post. that match up is tough, especially they needle on our wasteland. perhaps we just give up mana control plan and cast all our dudes as fast as possible?
thanks for any suggestions.
Aven Mindcensor is a boss. Beyond that:
Revoker on Candelabra, Top, Expedition Map in that order of priority. Beware Karn in their board.
Mangara of Corondor is stupid good unless the Crop up a Karakas.
Needle from the board goes on Eye of Ugin, Thespian's Stage or Karakas (because you cannot profit by Emrakul bouncing that deck). Karn Liberated too, but ideally you save a Revoker for that. Name Misty Rainforest if you want some lulz.
Ghost Quarter is also good if you run it and Cataclysm is great at busting their balls (obviously Armageddon's better).
Repeal can hurt, so keep in your Mom and Thalia. Drop Serra Avenger, but do not drop Crusader since he beefs through Prime Time. Drop Jitte, maybe even Batterskull.
It's still a bad matchup, but I am sure there are more specific hate cards we can run.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Yes there are.
I have successfully used a single Winter Orb in my Enlightened Tutor sideboard to retard the development of 12-post long enough to win with Avengers and company. If you can do anything to slow them down (your usual tools are insufficient which is why it is a hard matchup), a hatchet like Cataclysm or Armageddon will finish the job. Most of the best tools are not in the main. Mangara is the only good answer in the main of some decks in fact. It is no wonder the matchup is hard.
Also note that a well placed Surgical Extraction on Cloud Post can put you in command early. But who even uses that card?
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
wow, thanks guys, I will be trying your suggestions:smile:
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
I'm curious to hear if any of you have tested Flagstones of Troikar and how they have been performing for you.
I've played 3 Flagstones 7 plains for about 6 months now and I've been liking them, there's definite downsides but the cost of running them is generally very low.
Upsides:
- Thins the deck (extremely minor upside)
- Sometimes people wasteland it because they're unfamiliar with the card
- Fantastic with Cataclysm
Downsides
- Feeds Deathrite Shaman in multiples
- Vulnerable to Back to Basics (which is terrible against you to begin with)
- Vulnerable to Blood Moon (which is also not very effective against you)
- Wastelandable land with Rest in Peace in play
Might've missed some downsides but this is what comes to mind. The downsides very rarely comes up so I've been considering going up to 4x. I've also considered cutting them entirely since I've been playing with them for so long that I don't remember what it's like to play without them.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bahra
I'm curious to hear if any of you have tested Flagstones of Troikar and how they have been performing for you.
I've played 3 Flagstones 7 plains for about 6 months now and I've been liking them, there's definite downsides but the cost of running them is generally very low.
Upsides:
- Thins the deck (extremely minor upside)
- Sometimes people wasteland it because they're unfamiliar with the card
- Fantastic with Cataclysm
Downsides
- Feeds Deathrite Shaman in multiples
- Vulnerable to Back to Basics (which is terrible against you to begin with)
- Vulnerable to Blood Moon (which is also not very effective against you)
- Wastelandable land with Rest in Peace in play
Might've missed some downsides but this is what comes to mind. The downsides very rarely comes up so I've been considering going up to 4x. I've also considered cutting them entirely since I've been playing with them for so long that I don't remember what it's like to play without them.
Well, in the mirror match, Flagstones gives opposing Mindcensors more reason to stick around.
Let's not forget that the burn matchup is still scary--scarier if you include Flagstones.
The cataclysm (or Armageddon) argument I'll give you, but the others hardly support the choice of card. Nobody is going to wasteland your Flagstones unless they are a complete invalid. It'd be like Ghost Quartering a Plains.
Thinning is similarly weak, but you already have admitted so.
Basically, despite our supposedly solid manabase, well over half of our lands are usually nonbasic. I see no good reason to further weaken ourselves to Blood Moon, POP or B2B for an ultimately fringe benefit off a land that provides no disruptive or true ramping ability.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barbed Blightning
Well, in the mirror match, Flagstones gives opposing Mindcensors more reason to stick around.
Let's not forget that the burn matchup is still scary--scarier if you include Flagstones.
The cataclysm (or Armageddon) argument I'll give you, but the others hardly support the choice of card. Nobody is going to wasteland your Flagstones unless they are a complete invalid. It'd be like Ghost Quartering a Plains.
Thinning is similarly weak, but you already have admitted so.
Basically, despite our supposedly solid manabase, well over half of our lands are usually nonbasic. I see no good reason to further weaken ourselves to Blood Moon, POP or B2B for an ultimately fringe benefit off a land that provides no disruptive or true ramping ability.
Well in Europe there's almost no Blood Moons, PoPs or B2Bs but there's a ton of miracles. I think the decision of whether or not to run them is close but they've won me more games than I've lost with them I feel like.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bahra
Well in Europe there's almost no Blood Moons, PoPs or B2Bs but there's a ton of miracles. I think the decision of whether or not to run them is close but they've won me more games than I've lost with them I feel like.
How do they win games? In no way can they attack, put dudes into play (aside from their obvious way) or fetch up hate/equipment.
You deck and skill won you those games. I can see no way for Flagstones to be a relevant factor.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barbed Blightning
How do they win games? In no way can they attack, put dudes into play (aside from their obvious way) or fetch up hate/equipment.
You deck and skill won you those games. I can see no way for Flagstones to be a relevant factor.
That is such a terrible response. They won me games indirectly. In many games I've cast cataclysm with a flagstones of troikar in play and no Ęther Vial so after Cataclysm I have 2 lands to their 1 and I can still cast most of my spells even without drawing additional lands.
That's how they've won me games.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bahra
That is such a terrible response. They won me games indirectly. In many games I've cast cataclysm with a flagstones of troikar in play and no Ęther Vial so after Cataclysm I have 2 lands to their 1 and I can still cast most of my spells even without drawing additional lands.
That's how they've won me games.
Still seems too narrow. It'd be like me running Strionic Resonator and claiming that it is worth including because it copies Flickerwisp or Jitte triggers and has won me games as a result. Maybe it has, but the benefit is narrow and the card could easily be replaced by better, more impactful cards.
Also, it isn't a "terrible response." The card doesn't do much of anything most of the time, except the occasional profit off LD and helping you get locked out against nonbasic hate.
Like I said above, you won those games not because of Flagstones but because of your skill with the deck and, obviously, the power of Cataclysm. The game was likely over once you resolved that spell and because you knew when to drop it, not because of some paltry land. Don't delude yourself by believing otherwise.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Cataclysm has won me enough games recently that I've been considering Flagstones, but that's not good reasoning when I think about it a second time, because those games are already won when I resolve the Cataclysm. And there are real downsides to running Flagstones. The first time a Delver opponent races you by Wasting it during your upkeep and taking you off Flickerwisp or Jitte mana for that one crucial turn, or a Painter deck Moons your Flagstones/Waste/Karakas draw, you will hate the card and never run it again. The upside is tiny when you consider how easy it should be to set up a fatal Cataclysm without needing your lands replaced.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
As a miracles player I have a hard time with this matchup. Between Thalia, vials and SFM I find it hard to keep the board clear. I wanted to asked the seasoned D&T players here what cards have hurt you the most when you played against miracles.
I am really liking Izzet Staticaster over the sulfur elemental. He can block easier, kills revokers, and doesn't beef up your angels/SFMs for more beats. I am also running 2 EE as well. What other cards have you seen sided in against you that have worked well?
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