So you play like 2 Choke, 2 Orb?
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So you play like 2 Choke, 2 Orb?
Correct. It wasn't on mtgtop8.com yet but found it on mtggoldfish.comQuote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/602843#online
Rallier has a lot of really interesting applications and doesn't require us to savage our mana base, which can happen with knight, allowing us to hit larger GSZ numbers more consistently and to also abuse Canopy/Wasteland/Pridemage or to rebuy anything that gets sent to the yard(which is odd against miracles).Quote:
Originally Posted by Luthiereisfun
He would also play well with any looting effects i.e. Mask of memory off of stoneforge or potential Smugglers Copter action.
Vs. MiraclesQuote:
Originally Posted by Warden
It was the first time I actually resolved Garruck vs Miracles, I knew he was good on paper but wow, if they don't have an answer it's just game over.
Surgical extraction is great, depending on what your board looks like, surgical swords or terminus, and you can really cripple them. Bonus points for surgicalling when they snap back the swords or when the miracle trigger goes on the stack.
Overall though I'm just really enjoying playing the deck, it's always a challenge, and has so many lines to consider, hard to get bored!
What is it about Garruk that Miracles can't beat, just that he generates 2/2's every turn? Something stupid like Words of Wilding could work too, plus it can't be attacked by Snapcaster or Clique and you can't lose the game to Jace ultimate. Combine it with Sylvan Library for extra salt. Killable by Wear/Tear of course.
The only way Miracles can interact with planeswalkers is on the stack, other than with Council's Judgment (if they run it) or just killing you. Garruk also doesn't cost you your draw step so you can continue applying pressure elsewhere or stock up for when they eventually answer him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Claymore
Or they just let it resolve, cast an end-step Vendilion Clique (or Entreat), then kill Garruk in the air on their turn and leave you with a four-mana 2/2 token.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
This deck does take the right sequencing, you don't jam a garruk or choke into a bunch of open mana. You have to strategize and pick the best spots to play your spells to beat miracles. Force them to interact with what you are trying to do until you finally run them out of answers, then they get desperate to find the answer and once they find it you have the cards saved in your hand to hopefully finish the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by timmyod17
There's indeed literally nothing we can do to lock them out of the game since the printing of Council's Judgement and Kozilek's Return. But if their hand is not amazing, Garruk can wreck them quite hard (and keep in mind that Clique is generally sided out vs Maverick - this is the moment we side our Garruk(s) in, Clique is a card meant to assist vs combo) - and if there's a "X=3+" Entreat incoming, we have practically already lost unless we have a setup mom/bw sword+knight lethal.Quote:
Originally Posted by timmyod17
All this talk about Garruk has me wondering: is he the best PW we've got against Miracles? Other decks? Trying to decide on my 75 for SCG Worcester next week.Quote:
Originally Posted by aspsnake
I have gone back and forth between Garruk and Nahiri (and no PW in the 75). I've always liked the ability to return an equipment from the GY to play, an effect that seems more relevant these days overall with the number of BUG decks running 4x abrupt decay or 4c control decks with K-command. I also like that Nahiri can plus and then survive a subsequent attack from something like a TNN. I do like Garruk's ability to randomly kill a DRS, though.
Has anyone tested the new Nissa in any matchups?
Honestly, the factor that has tipped the balance in my choice recently has been the fact that Nahiri has only been printed in Commander and my Maverick deck is otherwise all foiled out where applicable :tongue:
I'm currently on garruk which i have not yet been able to draw against miracles, but I tested kaya for a while and the games where she came in to play were a cakewalk afterwards. I switched back because theoretically garruk is better and has more utility across match-ups. Nahiri and Nissa could both be interesting cards to test, but not a huge fan of the cmc. I know nic-fit has had success with nissa, but they also ramp much quicker.Quote:
Originally Posted by timmyod17
Against Miracles, we want combat planeswalkers - and 2/2 generator is pretty sweet. What makes him so much better than others is the removal ability, which makes him useful in a wide variety of matchups, including infect. On his flipped side, he is very useful again, generating ideal Tarmogoyf blockers and tutoring us any creatures we need. Never used his Overrun ulti, but I'm sure that it has won games too. There's just no other combat planeswalker that generates 2/2s and would be a removal slot too for 4 mana.Quote:
Originally Posted by timmyod17
I have used Nissa a little bit, and yes 5 is high, but her abilities are all really nice.
Untapping a cradle is ridiculous if you have something to do with the mana, other lands make great attacker/blockers
Cards back is nice
The ultimate is bonkers with a knight in play.
Great for really grindy games, not so good for anything requiring speed or stabilising a board.
Only played a few games with her though, so grain of salt, I've needed the sideboard slots for other things since then, but would definitely give her another shot.
Play garruk, it's flip abilities are all good as well. I have used the overrun ability multiple times and it just seems to win me games. Searching for creatures also helps win games. I don't think we would want nissa over garruk because we need garruk to kill things as well. I bring it in vs delver and am happy to have another answer to kill delver.
I might be too excited about new things, but could prowling serpopard have a place in the deck, at least against miracles? You still can't over commit but it seems like a nice tool.
Just so you know - Miracles usually side out cbalances vs us. Why would you ever Zenith for it instead of a Knight?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbrewersbro
Secondly, most of our threats that we really want to resolve (Zenith for Teeg, Choke, Garruk) are non-creature. Vs Miracles, you want as many "hard" slots as possible in sb, which have to be answered on the spot.
I agree. I want to like it, but I think this card is a trap. It doesn't help us against Terminus or provide any value when it ETBs.Quote:
Originally Posted by aspsnake
Planeswalkers are good against miracle. I tried out many of them and I found out that the best planeswalker to tun are Garruk Relentless and Sorin, lord of Innistrad. The problem of miracle, now, is that they have implemented a new card advantave engine: predict. And it's become really difficult to find a spot when they are out of answers. Chains of mephistopheles are a non-bo with sylvan library. Maybe splash with blue and put a couple of Leovold? Has anyone tried it? Even Khaya ghost assassin in side could be a solution, but is slow and is useless with all the other MU (I tested her a lot)
I think, Choke is better in Maverick than Chains. If they don't have blue mana available, they can't draw as well ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by ricste88
As for Predict, it becomes rather clunky without Top. Pack your Needles, and you are good to go!
Maverick doesn't really have a plan to beat Miracles and Terminus, true or false?Quote:
Originally Posted by aspsnake
Miracles is what killed Maverick originally, what changed?
Against miracles cards like choke and gaddock teeg can give them a headache. Teeg especially if we have mom to protect him. Abrupt decay is good for hitting CB or tops in response to fetches etc..we also have cards like sylvan library and garruk relentless that are great for grinding out long games and are hard for them to answer once resolved. We also usually pack sword of fire and ice which can usually give us a good clock and CA.
I think why Miracles is still so tough is just how consistent they can be. They have fantastic card filtering/selection, pseudo CA with top/CB, and they have Terminus which in one card sets us way back usually at least being a 2 for 1. They more or less are great at grinding us out to few cards in hand with not a lot of pressure on board. Then they untap and make 1 million flying angels.
It's winnable but quite tricky. You have to not over extend and choose your openings.
So no?Quote:
Originally Posted by Luthiereisfun
I really think any effort in most non-blue threads, should be "how can we beat the great blue menace" with Miracles being at the forefront of the discussion. I <3 Maverick and am super happy that the thread is active again but unless the Miracles question has been answered.... why bother with other matchups?
I disagree that Miracles killed Maverick: at some point, it was a wide variety of things that pushed Maverick to almost non-existance. It was DRS, True-name and Terminus together that gave us hard times, and then Dig Through Time and Treasure Cruise that did the "this is Sparta!" final knockdown. However, interestingly, when decks started to forget about existance of Wasteland-enabled midrange non-blue decks (except few D&T and stuff), and Delver on its way down due to Miracles (except maybe BUG), many decks started to grind Miracles with very greedy manabases, and that's where we come back, sometimes with some new toys. Legacy always goes circles: with D&T on the rise and combo decks pushed back by the greedy blue Leovold decks, we have a place in the meta again.Quote:
Originally Posted by lavafrogg
Having an unfavored matchup against Miracles doesn't make our deck unplayable. We should be just aware of it, and ready ;)
We should bother with other matchups because not everyone plays Miracles. At the last 4 or 5 legacy tournaments that I've played with 50+ people, I've only even been matched up against Miracles in the top 8 a few times and never in the Swiss. It's maybe 10% of the overall field [disclaimer: I only play paper magic, no idea what the online metagame is like], even if it's overrepresented in top 8's. And our deck happens to be really quite good against the other ~90% of the field (barring the few weird people who bring random stuff like Belcher). And because of the fact that not many people play Maverick, nobody comes prepared for it. Maverick just destroys most other fair decks and we have random silver bullets that can hose unfair decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by lavafrogg
My personal thought is if I want to maximize my match win %, then I essentially write off Miracles as a loss and try to beat everyone else. I'm OK with that matchup having a 25% win rate if I can win 75% or more of the rest of my matchups. And I do :)
I think the key is packing cards that are incidentally good against miracles but have uses in other match ups. Needle, Choke, and Planeswalkers all have a variety of other uses. Needle against other combo, choke against other blue decks, and Walkers against BUg and other midrangey decks. Having flexible answers is really key in my opinion. I can beat the average miracle player generally speaking, but the really good ones are near impossible to beat 2/3 games
Over the weekend I played at the Quest for Power event at MTGFirst and I was featured on camera.
I went 0-3 drop but I tried out something new for once and
Trying it out again this weekend at SCG Worchesrer.
Collected company.
I know that 4 mana spells are suppose to win the game on their own in order for them to be legacy payable. But I've been testing extensively with this card and it is has been a wrecking blowout.
You will mostly hit two creatures in a set if you are running 25-26 creatures. It gets non-green creatures like mom and Thalia. It can be used relatively to a board wipe if you have the mana to (which for us it isn't hard).
I know that I'm on the minority on this card, but at least before Dismissing it entirely, try it out just once.
I'm a big fan of collected company, although I've never tried it in Maverick, could be fun I'll give it a go.
What are you replacing with it? GSZ?
You can shave some GSZ. Right now I'm on 3 GSZ/2 CC.Quote:
Originally Posted by DoomRabbit
It makes the matches where you feel like you are losing board state to be able come back with more threats.
When CoCo came out I tried and it and was an advocate while most people thought I was silly. I don't like that you have to warp the deck to make CoCo better but there are so many viable creatures for Maverick I wouldn't consider it making the deck strictly worse going creature heavy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderknight
There were times it was an absolute blowout grabbing EOT something like a KOTR and stoneforge mystic to ride to victory the next turn. It often was quite good actually, and when it's really good man is it amazing. I ended up dropping it however because for the few times you whiff or just grab a creature that doesn't make an impact that card felt very underwhelming.
People always say a 4CMC should win you the game in legacy. Sometimes CoCo did win you the game. Sometimes it was literally a 4 mana do nothing. Not often, but often enough that it wasn't worth it for me. It's a risk you have to take with the card.
I can understand that lineof thinking. However I don't think collevted company was ever meant to override GSZ. In fact I would say that CC supports GSZ. The ability to EOT ripRR into whatever is in your GY for example is huge. Double Knight is huge. Scavenge ooze with cradle is huge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Luthiereisfun
I also believe that you don't need to go creature heavy to maximize collected company. The reason why it is that way for modern is because selection for tutoring creatures is smaller than legacy.
Vs Miracles: its a very grindy game. I know that Thrun has been doing a lot of wins for that matchup along with new Nissa. Nissa ends the game faster than Garruk because of her +1. Nothing feels good when they are force to terminus away a 5/5 land. Her ultimate helps us out CA them as well, especially if there is a tracker on the battlefield.
Don't you think that CC makes certain hate pieces, such as Gaddock Teeg/Grafdigger's Cage/Containment Priest, too harsh on us?Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderknight
In every other regard, it seems like a great choice in the current grindy meta!
Curious to see the list you piloted and reasons why you went 0-3 and against what.
I generally agree with this synopsis. I think some of the "newer" (using the term loosely) Plainswalkers give Maverick better odds. I still think the matchup is terribly in their favor. Suprised nobody is talking about Gideon. Used him the other weekend in vial-maverick and felt he made the control matchup much better. Gideon has an aggressive clock and worst-case you can drop 2/2 knights.Quote:
Originally Posted by lavafrogg
The other route to go against Miracles is a lockdown. Sanctum Prelate has been 'meh'....she usually baits a counterspell or immediate removal spell. However, she isn't locking Miracles out of the game like I hope she would. The lockdown is X=1, X=3, and Teeg, which is just too magicalchristmasland for me to ever whip up. I've had some success rocking Armageddon, which is what I just suggested to the DnT thread.
Thinking about how the meta has gotten quite grindy...would punishing Maverick warrant taking a look at again? I was trying to think of a punishing list in my head that would have a light black splash to be able to have some black sb cards vs combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by aspsnake
I like the idea of punishing fire being able to deal with planeswalkers something I think our deck isn't always best to combat.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aspsnake
The same hate peieces also affect GSZ, so it doesnt really change how it would be different for CC.
I peformed like shyt. But heres the list that I pilot,
3 DRS
1 Noble Hirerach
3 Mom
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
4. Little Thalia
1 Scrub Ranger
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasli Pridemage
4 Knight of the Reqiary
1 Renergade Railler
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Thrun the Last Troll
4 STPs
3 GSZ
2 Collected Company
1 Sylvan Library
1 Jitte
1 Sophie
22 Lands
Lost to Food Chain, Miracles on camera, and Oops all Spells
It really depends on your meta, I guess :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Luthiereisfun
Give it a try, and be sure to tell us how did it go! ;
Okay so we try to slam down new Gideon against miracles and then hope they never find councils judgement /s
Okay maybe like 3/4 sarcasm
They'll just kill him with mentor/entreat after they take control of the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Luthiereisfun
Card doesn't seem that good to me.
Shhhh quit being realistic, join me in magic Christmas land.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
Agree entirely. There's enough incidental hate for miracles that you don't need to pack narrow stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus