Without Tops, a lot of the good piles are unavailable.
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Without Tops, a lot of the good piles are unavailable.
Today, I choose the option 4)Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
Tomorrow, I'll try to up the chant effects and Lim-Dul's Vaults
The sky is not falling, but this is just bad. Don't deny all the times you did Mystical and killed with Ad Nauseam the turn after.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
1) We could go up to 9 cantrip, playing the neew Serum Visions, which comboes well with Brainstorm into forming a pseudo shuffle effects (something Mystical tutor used to provide on itself).
2) The sideboard Infernal tutor is very valuable, and this deck already plays an overkill of 2cc tutors. No.
3) I think we could add another Protection, in the form of Thoughtseize.
Lim Dul's vault is just bad, because this deck is really land-low, and it eats daze and cursecatcher better than anything else. I think there's no card disadvantage tool that's worth of being played, if it is (was) not Mystical.
Ah, Chrome Mox, ok.
How about Personal tutor? Okay, we lose a BUNCH of things, most that you:
Can't go for dark ritual
Can't go for silence
Can't go for Ad Nauseum (Ouch).
BUT
You can go for Infernal Tutor, Bwish, IGG (or ETW) or duress (if you need protection).
What irks me about personal tutor is that it's sorcery speed. The other guy knows what you're getting and has an untap step to decide how best to mess with you. Obviously it's not a perfect replacement, but I think it deserves consideration.
I have won because games because of Mystical but it's my most boarded out card. I don't think I'll miss it that much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Piceli89
As of right now it's looking like I'm going to be adding in more protection. Although, I'm unsure if this is the right move. I'll have to test some things out and see how they go.
You could try adding a single Cabal Ritual (not that you can tutor for it now...). Is 13 land the right amount? I remember it was less back when I played this deck. I also remember we cut the 4th Mox at that point. Amazing it's still in your list.
I'm a fan of four mox. I feel it's nessesary if you like winning at a lower life total with Ad Nauseam. I recently went up to 13 lands when I cut Simian Spirit Guide.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bahamuth
I've never really been a big fan of Cabal Ritual.
Do you think you could go up to 14 land? Could you go up to more fetch and no City's?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
I've always hated Chrome Mox because it's the worst card ever to show up twice in your hand. Now TES probably has a much better place for Mox than ANT and NLS and whatever other DD variant. I'm not too convinced you really need the 4th Mox to have good Ad Nauseams. I'd imagine resolving AdN in TES is pretty similar to resolving it in NLS, mostly because of the coloured mana you need to win. I played 2 Cabal Ritual, but no Rites in NLS, and AdN was just fine there. The difference is that we don't have Top + Mystical to win here, and we've got a couple more 2CC Tutors which you don't really want to reveal more than one of. I'll be testing my first list with 3 Mox. If it doesn't appear to be as terrible as I think, I might add a 4th.
I'm suggesting the Cabal Rit more as just another ritual to add now that Mystical is gone. I can see it's bad here, as you won't really get to 3 land in this deck ever.
So I've already tried to build a build of storm combo without Mystical Tutor. This is what I came up with:
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lions Eye Diamond
4 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Empty the Warrens
SB:
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
3 Empty the Warrens
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Grapeshot
1 Deathmark
4 Dark Confidant
1 Thoughtseize
1 Shattering Spree
1 Sadistic Sacrament
So far it has been working consistent and quite powerful. It doesn't contain Ad Nauseam and thus no Chrome Moxen because I think they suck without Ad Nauseam but besides the deck works quite well. I only fear it is more or less like storm combo before Ad Nauseam got printed, only slightly worse.
so why not run tops instead of some of the ponders?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias
Yes, it sucks to tap gemstone to spin the top, but then can't we just replace them with fetches and maybe drop green? How important is a single krosan grip in the sb now that we don't even have mysticals?
These are some of the worst suggestions I've seen.
I guess they banned mystical tutor because of reanimator but it really shouldn't effect us very much. I think this hurts ANT and NLS though.
What do you think about trying Chain of Vapor again?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
I've always enjoyed using it to generate storm.
hey, I'm not trying to sound arrogant or anything. My questions are completely sincere and I'd really like to know your input on this -Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
Is the -2 Mystical, +2 protection/cantrips edit really enough to keep this TES list "optimal" ?
Are you going to keep singleton krosan grip on the SB as the only green card in the deck?
If so, I guess I don't see how that's effective since half the time against cb you're going to be hellbent-tutoring for it with zero cards in hand.
TES is solidly four colors; it's what defines TES as different from other ad nauseum storm decks. Cutting down to three colors is an option, but then you have to decide whether you want red (for burning wish and red +mana) or white (for silence effects); no one here really wants to do that, which is why we play TES rather than ANT or something else.
Regarding the current predicament, this isn't that bad. It is a BIG hit, but not near fatal. TES is the most viable storm deck (next to Rev614) after MT gets the axe. I was going to write a tournament report about my top 8 with a TES/ANT list that I was playing but it seems worthless now. Either way though, here is the list I ran and really enjoyed it:
4x Mystical Fucking Tutor
4x Brainstorm
4x Duress
4x Rite of Flame
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Dark Ritual
4x Lotus Petal
3x Chrome Mox
3x Burning wish
3x Ponder
2x Infernal tutor
2x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Thoughtseize
1x Tendrils
1x IGG
1x AdN
4x Delta
2x Strand
2x Mire
2x Sea
1x Volcanic Island
1x Tropical Island
1x Badlands
1x Island
SB
2x Grip
2x Swarm
1x Slaughter Pact
1x Bayou
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Chain of Vapor
1x Ancient Grudge
Wish Targets
1x Tendrils
1x EtW
1x IGG
1x Sad Sac
1x Infernal Tutor
1x Eye of Nowhere
For whats its worth this list was cool as hell. Were it not for the loss of MT I could certainly have tweaked this to be much better. I would certainly go -1 Rite of Flame and +1 Bayou as well as -2 Thoughtseize -1 Duress and +3 Swarm to the main. Forgot how much better Swarm was in this deck. I will most likely be playing it for my final tournament with Mysticals legal since they are gone July 1. The list was consistent as hell all day and brutally fast. I only wish I had arrived at this kind of strange hybrid before the loss of MT, I think I finally found a good balance of speed and consistency!
TES will absolutely survive the hit of losing MT. And since Reanimator is even more influenced by this loss, it looks like it will go back to the original combo versus CB where solid luck determines the matchups, truly despicable. But in the end its whatever I guess.
Since AdN was printed storm combo made up a fairly decent size of the meta. Now that ANT is expected to fall out of favor as a viable deck, players fearing the combo matchup will likely pack less combo hate because they expect to see significantly less combo. I'd say this situation is better than 'not bad'. Its great. Now you don't have 'good' decks relying on Mystical Tutor as a crutch while decks like TES can still function without it. However, I wouldn't pass judgement on whats viable so quickly. We should wait to see how the meta shifts. Imagine that TES does become the best choice. If that is the case, then you will see more people packing hate specifically for TES that may not work against other storm combo (Gaddock Teeg is perfect example, being great against TES but worthless against Solidarity). Besides, viability is in context. There are certainly situations in which other storm combo is a better choice than TES.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction
Anyway, what changes would you make to that list now that MT is gone? I agree with you on +3 Swarm to the main but then how would you alter the board (since your board has x2 Swarm ATM)?
@Vacrix: Since you would have to cut the 4x MT I would need to test suitable replacements, but most likely, leaving the list as it is now and taking the 4x MT away, I would probably go: +1 Bayou, +1 Ponder, +1 Burning Wish/IT, +1 Top/Personal Tutor. It would need testing but in the end it would probably look something like that.
SB would depend on the Burning Wish count, but would most likely look something like:
3x Grip
1x Swarm
1x Slaughter Pact
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Chain of Vapor
1x Ancient Grudge
Wish Targets
1x Tendrils
1x EtW
1x IGG
1x Duress
1x Infernal Tutor
1x Eye of Nowhere
1x Shattering Spree
@ Bryant:
I've taken your last maindeck, shaved it a it off some things, and tweaked onn my style. The 2 Mysticals were replaced by 2 Thoughtseizes, and the 4th Chrome Mox is now a Preordain.
I've goldfished it and I absolutely loved it. It kills on turn 3 regularly with double protection, can play both the aggressive role by comboing off very quickly AND waiting to chant, plus 13 lands now makes it a bit sturdier. You may think that 9 protection slots are too much, but this deck often has a very explosive hand and craves for a protection in the first turns. Plus, since we don't have Mystical anymore, this increases the % of seeing one in the opening hand to, like, always.
Empty the Warrens is absolutely nice, and its power has increased especially now with 2 new duress effects that may take Rhox War Monk, too.
Preordain is interesting too, I'd suggest to add 1 or 2 because they're really useful in throwing off the chaff, and differently from Ponder they can net you one of the top 2 cards and get rid of the other. Which is something that here, in this deck, you do few times because of the low number of fetchlands.
4 [TSB] Gemstone Mine
2 [AN] City of Brass
1 [R] Underground Sea
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [R] Volcanic Island
1 [A] Underground Sea
2 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
// Spells
3 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [JU] Burning Wish
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [CST] Brainstorm
3 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [IA] Dark Ritual
2 [PS] Orim's Chant
4 [US] Duress
1 [M10] Silence
1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
1 [ARE] Serum Visions-->Preordain.
2 [LRW] Thoughtseize
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [AL] Diminishing Returns
SB: 2 [GP] Shattering Spree---> really still worth it with 2 Underground Seas?
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 1 [10E] Deathmark
SB: 2 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 1 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
SB: 1 [TSP] Krosan Grip
The sideboard is still unoptimized, but i really think I should increase the hatebear removals, beccause it's always nice to see them really quickly with nine 3-per-1 cantrips, and often thy're the only reason why bad hands are kept by some players.
I'm really tempted to start back again from TES now that I have to find something for Storm Combo, but I'm really undecided whether this is better than Fetchland Tendrils with 4 Doomsday maindeck and Emrakul in side for CB matchup.
I know this it's 100 faster and all, but I have the suspect recent unbannings will make artifact decks pour up from everywhere, with the relatives %s of t1 Trinisphere inreased now that Monolith is unbanned. Also, losing to Crucible+Wasteland remains a shame, and the tempo matchup is still so and so, especially now that they have Spell Pierce. I'd try to fit more Echoing truths in here for that, since it's arguably the bounce spells that may hit the most wide range of problematic permanents, from CotV to trinisphere, to Gaddock and Canonist.
Speed or consistency?
Picelli, maybe use Hurkyl's recall than the second Spree. No matter what, I gonna goldfish this list.