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I think you made a good point with combo on game1 and aggro on the next game.Quote:
Originally Posted by k2thej
As for the deck itself, hows Tendrils of Agony?
Also, have you ever tried Fauna Shaman on Survival of the Fittest's slot? I know its the suboptimal version but I would imagine being an 2/2 elf would synergize with the deck.
I talked with people prior to building ELVES!, and most people said the same thing… The opponent primary way of messing us up was countering the glimpse, then damage control for the rest of our beaters… Hence the backup plans… I tested NO-> Progentius, it seemed kinda clunky. So I tested SpeedofDark’s Weird harvest Build off of the OP. Here’s my build of it for ease of everyone:
4 nettle sentinel
4 heritage druid
4 birchlore ranger
3 Quirion Ranger
4 wirewood symbiote
3 fyndhorn elves
4 llanowar elves
---2cc Creatures (6)
1 elvish visionary
4 priest of titania
---4+cc Creatures (2)
1 regal force
1 emrakul, the aeons torn
1 Mirror Entity
---Spells (12)
4 glimpse of nature
4 summoner's pact
4 weird harvest
---Mana Base 15
12 forests
3 Elvish Spirit Guide
Went 3-2 for the night… but non-goldishing games versus very competent taught me a bunch…
That build seemed alright, I loved being able to randomly win off of a large weird harvest… Most games I was able to use PoT to power out Weird Harvest for 4, then win… For example, I was able to do this versus a dreadstill guy: 2 Elves + PoT in play…
Guy is at 1 card, so knowing I’m safe from FoW, I go---> Weird harvest for 4…. Grab Quiron, Symbiote, Symbiote Emerkul. Cast the Quiron with a floating mana, and then the brokenness of :
Play Quiroin then use it to untap PoT, tap for 4
Symbiote(3) Untap Priest with Symbiote#1 return Quirion… Replay Quirion(2) Tap Priest for 4(6) Untap PoT with Quirion, Tap PoT for 4 (10) Play Symbiote#2 (9) Return Quirion to Untap Priest, Replay Quirion (8) Tap priest for 4 (12) Quirion Untap and last tap for mana with PoT for 4 (16)
Emerkul FTW!!!!
My only problem was the fact that build was the lack of focus on the way to use the tutors… If you want to use weird harvest, you’ll be needing to use Elvish Archdruid and PoT to power out the weird harvest and to be honest, you might as we be heading over to the NO Elves thread, since you could can do the above easier and not rely on glimpse being the main wincon… I’ll be experimenting with a build like that later, feel free to ask if you want it.
Worldly Tutor seemed way too clunky, and to be blunt ineffiecent, useful only mid-combo with a glimpse going. Survival is out of my price range for now… So my last good option was living wish… which is good since I feel more comfortable using the mirror entity shenanigans… And this is what this build is going be tested in battle this Sunday…
4 nettle sentinel
4 heritage druid
3 birchlore ranger
1 Quirion Ranger
4 wirewood symbiote
3 fyndhorn elves
4 llanowar elves
1 Jorgara Warcaller
3 priest of titania
1 regal force
1 emrakul, the aeons torn
2 Mirror Entity
4 glimpse of nature
4 summoner's pact
4 Living Wish
---Mana Base 17
2 forests
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
4 Horizon Canopy
1 Murmuring Bosk
SB
4 Leyline of Lifeforce
3 K Grip
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Terraston
1 Mirror Entity
1 Quiron Ranger
1 Regal Force
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Faerie Macabre
This build differs significantly from others here, so I’ll try give justification for the choices…
Living Wish + Wishboard: Needed another tutor and this was able to get the mirror entity for those shenanigans… Also allows for another copy of card pieces for the comboing, Regal Force and Quirion Ranger. Ranger is sometimes important to grab a copy for PoT fun… Could be Symbiote, but that will a testing issue
Other Singletons were for MU that this might work well for: Shusher for CB, Macabre for Reanimator (and to a lesser extent Dredge… I know that the Macabre is insufficient, but might be able to hit a few things at opportune times) Magus for Lands.dec (this slot is unimportant for my local meta, but might be important for taking the deck on the road, but is a surprise thing that might shut down some random decks)Zealot for random artifact/enchantment and Terraston is a catchall, but think it will be mainly for Enchantress. Other cards that might be interesting: Ethersworn Cannonist to shut down storm more than it shuts down us.
2nd MD Mirror Entity: I like mirror entity, and used correctly will end the game usually the same turn. Most of my games with this fall into two catagories: 1. Mirror plus glimpse = win with Emerkul since you can’t go infinite, since all the loops cause you to draw cards. 2. Mirror Entity without glimpse = all non-summoning sick elves become arbitrarily large and swing for the game. It is hard to judge whether or not you have a mirror entity loop or not, and remember the steps can be a pain at times… But rewarding when you do have the loop. 2 MD + 4 Living Wish means that this is a fairly easy to find, and most opponents will leave it alive since the other elves are known factors, mirror entity doesn’t get the respect others do.
Priest of Titania: Mirror Entity + PoT + Symbiote and a free mana in pool = Arbitrarily large creatures infinite untaps and mana… And allows for broken plays… this is also the reason for the singleton Quirion… This slot is kinda open for playing around with, so feel free to test a playset of whatever in this slot if you want, I like the extra mirror entity combo and dropping PoT with ESG on T1 is always a broken and fun time…
Jorgara Warcaller: It’s a singlton, and experimental. In many builds this is a permanent mirror entity pump, and people love it cause it makes Firespout and Engineered Plague cry… Don’t know if its worth the slot
Mana: 17 Sources is high, but with 4 of them are ESG. ESG is awesome for the T1, and helps mid-combo. Since I like mirror entity, I hated having to solely rely on the birchlore for my favorite combo piece… Previously I had games rest on me being able to cast mirror entity and not have the W source… So I use fetches to grab Temple Garden (which for those with the $ means Savannah) and Stomping Grounds (ditto for Taiga)… Stomping Ground will be cut if we ever drop the Magus out of the Moon out of the SB… Murmuring Bosk is kinda a bluff, its fetchable doesn’t ping us for G, yet can get us our W for Mirror Entity and yet can be used for B, which is the bluff part. Is it cute and unnecessary, probs, but funny to me right now… and if you don’t need the mana right away, the B part of the land might make them think you’re running hand disruption or whatever… Horizon Canopy: So I get G+W and potentially cantrip the lands; done and done.
Is this deck now fully wasteland-able? Sure… But so is the rest of Legacy… And fetching basics is always an option, as is slow-rolling the wasteland by keeping other mana available to cycle the horizon canopy… And we don't always rely on lands for mana...
So feel free to critique, test and/or use….
By all means tear this thing apart, as it is the only way to learn..
I talked with people prior to building ELVES!, and most people said the same thing… The opponent primary way of messing us up was countering the glimpse, then damage control for the rest of our beaters… Hence the backup plans… I tested NO-> Progentius, it seemed kinda clunky. So I tested SpeedofDark’s Weird harvest Build off of the OP. Here’s my build of it for ease of everyone:
4 nettle sentinel
4 heritage druid
4 birchlore ranger
3 Quirion Ranger
4 wirewood symbiote
3 fyndhorn elves
4 llanowar elves
---2cc Creatures (6)
1 elvish visionary
4 priest of titania
---4+cc Creatures (2)
1 regal force
1 emrakul, the aeons torn
1 Mirror Entity
---Spells (12)
4 glimpse of nature
4 summoner's pact
4 weird harvest
---Mana Base 15
12 forests
3 Elvish Spirit Guide
Went 3-2 for the night… but non-goldishing games versus very competent taught me a bunch…
That build seemed alright, I loved being able to randomly win off of a large weird harvest… Most games I was able to use PoT to power out Weird Harvest for 4, then win… For example, I was able to do this versus a dreadstill guy: 2 Elves + PoT in play…
Guy is at 1 card, so knowing I’m safe from FoW, I go---> Weird harvest for 4…. Grab Quiron, Symbiote, Symbiote Emerkul. Cast the Quiron with a floating mana, and then the brokenness of :
Play Quiroin then use it to untap PoT, tap for 4
Symbiote(3) Untap Priest with Symbiote#1 return Quirion… Replay Quirion(2) Tap Priest for 4(6) Untap PoT with Quirion, Tap PoT for 4 (10) Play Symbiote#2 (9) Return Quirion to Untap Priest, Replay Quirion (8) Tap priest for 4 (12) Quirion Untap and last tap for mana with PoT for 4 (16)
Emerkul FTW!!!!
My only problem was the fact that build was the lack of focus on the way to use the tutors… If you want to use weird harvest, you’ll be needing to use Elvish Archdruid and PoT to power out the weird harvest and to be honest, you might as we be heading over to the NO Elves thread, since you could can do the above easier and not rely on glimpse being the main wincon… I’ll be experimenting with a build like that later, feel free to ask if you want it.
Worldly Tutor seemed way too clunky, and to be blunt ineffiecent, useful only mid-combo with a glimpse going. Survival is out of my price range for now… So my last good option was living wish… which is good since I feel more comfortable using the mirror entity shenanigans… And this is what this build is going be tested in battle this Sunday…
4 nettle sentinel
4 heritage druid
3 birchlore ranger
1 Quirion Ranger
4 wirewood symbiote
3 fyndhorn elves
4 llanowar elves
1 Jorgara Warcaller
3 priest of titania
1 regal force
1 emrakul, the aeons torn
2 Mirror Entity
4 glimpse of nature
4 summoner's pact
4 Living Wish
---Mana Base 17
2 forests
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
4 Horizon Canopy
1 Murmuring Bosk
SB
4 Leyline of Lifeforce
3 K Grip
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Terraston
1 Mirror Entity
1 Quiron Ranger
1 Regal Force
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Faerie Macabre
This build differs significantly from others here, so I’ll try give justification for the choices…
Living Wish + Wishboard: Needed another tutor and this was able to get the mirror entity for those shenanigans… Also allows for another copy of card pieces for the comboing, Regal Force and Quirion Ranger. Ranger is sometimes important to grab a copy for PoT fun… Could be Symbiote, but that will a testing issue
Other Singletons were for MU that this might work well for: Shusher for CB, Macabre for Reanimator (and to a lesser extent Dredge… I know that the Macabre is insufficient, but might be able to hit a few things at opportune times) Magus for Lands.dec (this slot is unimportant for my local meta, but might be important for taking the deck on the road, but is a surprise thing that might shut down some random decks)Zealot for random artifact/enchantment and Terraston is a catchall, but think it will be mainly for Enchantress. Other cards that might be interesting: Ethersworn Cannonist to shut down storm more than it shuts down us.
2nd MD Mirror Entity: I like mirror entity, and used correctly will end the game usually the same turn. Most of my games with this fall into two catagories: 1. Mirror plus glimpse = win with Emerkul since you can’t go infinite, since all the loops cause you to draw cards. 2. Mirror Entity without glimpse = all non-summoning sick elves become arbitrarily large and swing for the game. It is hard to judge whether or not you have a mirror entity loop or not, and remember the steps can be a pain at times… But rewarding when you do have the loop. 2 MD + 4 Living Wish means that this is a fairly easy to find, and most opponents will leave it alive since the other elves are known factors, mirror entity doesn’t get the respect others do.
Priest of Titania: Mirror Entity + PoT + Symbiote and a free mana in pool = Arbitrarily large creatures infinite untaps and mana… And allows for broken plays… this is also the reason for the singleton Quirion… This slot is kinda open for playing around with, so feel free to test a playset of whatever in this slot if you want, I like the extra mirror entity combo and dropping PoT with ESG on T1 is always a broken and fun time…
Jorgara Warcaller: It’s a singlton, and experimental. In many builds this is a permanent mirror entity pump, and people love it cause it makes Firespout and Engineered Plague cry… Don’t know if its worth the slot
Mana: 17 Sources is high, but with 4 of them are ESG. ESG is awesome for the T1, and helps mid-combo. Since I like mirror entity, I hated having to solely rely on the birchlore for my favorite combo piece… Previously I had games rest on me being able to cast mirror entity and not have the W source… So I use fetches to grab Temple Garden (which for those with the $ means Savannah) and Stomping Grounds (ditto for Taiga)… Stomping Ground will be cut if we ever drop the Magus out of the Moon out of the SB… Murmuring Bosk is kinda a bluff, its fetchable doesn’t ping us for G, yet can get us our W for Mirror Entity and yet can be used for B, which is the bluff part. Is it cute and unnecessary, probs, but funny to me right now… and if you don’t need the mana right away, the B part of the land might make them think you’re running hand disruption or whatever… Horizon Canopy: So I get G+W and potentially cantrip the lands; done and done.
Is this deck now fully wasteland-able? Sure… But so is the rest of Legacy… And fetching basics is always an option, as is slow-rolling the wasteland by keeping other mana available to cycle the horizon canopy… And we don't always rely on lands for mana...
So feel free to critique, test and/or use….
By all means tear this thing apart, as it is the only way to learn..
Quote:
Originally Posted by (nameless one)
Tendrils is amazing because you can cast it at less spells if you need to for a kill on the next turn, i.e., 6 spells= they lose 12 and you gain 12, still pretty much a win. Also, it is almost never stopped by counterbalance since it is 4 mana, where as the two mana storms are easily avoided.
Funny you should mention Fauna Shaman, I'm actually running her now too for that reason. I like her a lot.
When I saw running her too I mean running her instead of the two survivals, in the slots you suggested. As for the weird harvest build, it's just not good. Don't do it, it's way too slow. My average goldfish is turn 2.75. It's fast.Quote:
Originally Posted by k2thej
What do you guys think of this build?
9 forest
2 Gaea's Cradle
2 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Elvish Visionary
3 Priest of Titania
4 Nettle Sentinel
3 Birchlore Rangers
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Heritage Druid
4 Wirewood Symbiote
3 Fyndhorn Elves
3 weird harvest
1 grapeshot
1 emrakul, the aeons torn
1 regal force
Oh I'm thinking of replacing the Weird with Survival of the fittest. Is fauna really better than Survival?
Neither is a clear advantage, I am liking Fauna shaman because for game 1 I am 100% combo-minded and I like having the only cards in my deck that can slow down the combo be lands and the stormkill. Everything else keeps it going. This allows me to go for the combo whenever there's even a chance it might work, and it usually ends up working out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil
As for the build you suggested, a few potential problems I see:
Spirit Guides- They are not reliable. When you play a deck that only sees 1-3 lands a game, you can't rely on the guides to drop an elf turn one cause if it gets zapped you're screwed. They are not good, you need reliable lands that you can tap for the first two turns, which brings me to my next point...
Cradle- In combo elves, cradle is actually a bad idea. We simply do not need the mana, and if it is the only land in your hand (which is a legit concern since we usually only have 1 in our opening hand) you can't play anything on turn one. This deck needs to be built around maximizing the first 2 turns, and cradle screwes up turn one without any reasonable payoff.
Grapeshot- Tendrils is better in every way, you will never have a problem paying for it.
These are my main thoughts on the build, I can re-post my list if you want to see what I'm running.
If you can tell me the page you posted you deck on that would be nice.Quote:
Originally Posted by k2thej
Spirit Guide- Since you are removing it from the game I don't se how it can be countered. I use it because It can get me that extra mana I need.
Cradle- I do see your point on it. The reason I run it is because by turn 2 I have a minimum of two creatures out so it produces more mana than a forest. Have you actually tested how many times it causes you to mulligan and how many times it saves you from fizzling out?
I think I will take Grapeshot out and put tendrils in.
Thanks for the help.
It's not the spirit guide that is the problem it's the elf you use it to put in. If you keep a hand with no lands and rely on spirit guides that is a bad idea is all I'm saying. And since you are replacing land slots with spirit guides, this will occur more often. Ya I tested the cradle and it never gave me an advantage, I never need the mana it gives me. Just be crafty with your one drops haha.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil
My decklist is posted on page 18, but I am now running 2 Fauna Shamans instead of the survivals
oh duh.... I got the point on the spirit guide.
Could you show me your deck list?
Main:Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil
4 Birchlore Rangers
2 Elvish Archdruid
4 Elvish Visionary
2 Fauna Shaman
6 Forest
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Heritage Druid
1 Joraga Warcaller
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Regal Force
4 Summoner's Pact
1 Tendrils of Agony
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wirewood Symbiote
SB:
1 Elvish Champion
3 Fecundity
3 Krosan Grip
4 Leyline of Lifeforce
4 Tormod's Crypt
Actually, Counterbalance only triggers on the original spell and not the copies created by the Storm trigger.Quote:
Originally Posted by k2thej
I imagine Grapeshot being better than Tendrils in Elves because it's easier to cast early game and it can take out Canonist/Meddling Mage/Lackey etc., but I don't play this deck, so..
I didn't know that about counterbalance, I appreciate the correction.Quote:
Originally Posted by kikoo
As for grapeshot, it can't kill cannonist because you need to cast a spell before it for it to be two damage. The advantage to tendrils being a 4 life advantage per spell where as grapeshot is only a 1 life advantage far outweighs situational creature zapping.
A few questions about your deck-list.
Why are you running Elvish Archdruid over Priest of Titania? It costs 1 more for pretty much the same thing except it gives +1/+1. Can you really use the mana creation ability before or when going off?
Joraga Warcaller, is he really that good? It's really easy to remove it or counter it. Is it 1cmc against counterbalance or does the multi-kick count?
The Archdruid is better than Preist because it gives you the option to go aggro if the combo fails for any reason. They stifle tendrils? Ok I have 20 3/3s on the field...Also, there arn't really any scenarios that I found in testing where I could play the priest but not the Archdruid. I know that sounds weird but test it, it's true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil
As for the Warcaller, You play one because you can bounce him back to your hand with symbiote and then recast him with all the extra mana after you combo out.
what do you guys think about the advantages of warcaller instead of storm? Here are my thoughts:
If we play warcaller as the win con, the only things in the entire deck that slow down the combo are lands, that's pretty freggin sweet! No dead cards in opening hand ever.
If we play a storm kill, specifically tendrils, as the wincon, it gets around all types of pesky things such as moat, fog effects, damage prevention, etc.
So basically, is it worth it to have the potential dead card in your opening hand in order to get around these defensive effects?
This has been reiterated to exhaustion pretty much since page one of the thread. If you're looking for something that gets around damage-preventing effects Emrakul is about as good as you can get, and even then that's strictly a sideboard card due to the win more nature of it otherwise. And yes, Lords and haste effects are the best win condition for this deck.
Joraga warcaller is really bad against hate also most of the times it will take an extra turn to win. If you have haste effects then it will slow down the deck also. I think Emrakul is a good win condition.
Right now, I think I prefer Banefire to Grapeshot as a primary wincon due to a bad run-in with Prismatic Strands. It's not too good for the backup plan of going aggro though, since you have to run more mana producers... any suggestions?