Teehee. But really, move to Cockatrice. The shitty server is more than made up for by the playerbase.
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Teehee. But really, move to Cockatrice. The shitty server is more than made up for by the playerbase.
I'm starting to warm up to the idea of Chrome Mox from watching the video linked earlier, but I honestly cannot find Warren Instigator necessary. I personally don't agree with most of the list (only 1 incinerator?). And the sideboard was very...stock. I guess I just didn't like the entire 75 in general. But the Chrome Mox could work...I'd end up dropping either a mountain or a fetch for it, i'm not sure.
I also did not liked his list. At all.Quote:
Originally Posted by AlmostGrown
But it convinced me trying Mox.
Results will come up next week! =]
The list originally had 1 Gempalm Incinerator, 2 Stingscourger and 1 Warren Weirding. Switched to 2 Warren Weirding because sometimes you just need to kill your opponents creature. The most important reason why the list is low on Gempalm Incinerators is, because it's designed on making Goblin Lackey or Warren Instigator connect. That's what it's supposed to do, so that's also the reason why we play 4 Warren Instigator. The Chrome Moxen are there to ensure a fast start with a possible turn 1 Instigator. If you don't plan on running 4 Instigator, 2 Chrome Moxen seem redundant.
Glad to see I'm not the only one convinced.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScatmanX
I have two legacy events this weekend - on Saturday it's regular REL and sunday is a GPT. I'll try out 2 Chrome Mox on Saturday to see if I like it. I currently play 4 fetches, should I drop two of those for the Chrome Mox?
(I didn't see your post until after I made mine) So you're saying without the Instigator, I shouldn't play Chrome Mox at all?Quote:
Originally Posted by Skeggi
If you're MonoR, play no fetches at all. If you're Rb or Rg, play 6-7 fetches and cut Ports for Mox. If you don't run them, cut Mountains.Quote:
Originally Posted by AlmostGrown
Chrome Mox is there to accelerate your deck. It does not make sens to use it in traditional builds with MWM. You don't want to Imprint a card to get 2-3 1/1 goblins into play, that apply no pressure whatsoever. You don't need to accelerate (in goblins) defensive cards. Offensive ones you do.Quote:
Originally Posted by AlmostGrown
Depends. I think that without Warren Instigator, you shouldn't play Goblins. You may very well play Chrome Mox in TES or ANT.Quote:
Originally Posted by AlmostGrown
Naw, sorry, but most people have good reason to play Goblins without Warren Instigators (and thus without Chrome Moxes). The most (if not all) T8-Goblin-lists at SCG did not run either one of them, but preffered MWM to make sick actions with Skirk Prospector, Goblin Sharphooter and Cabal TherapyQuote:
Originally Posted by Skeggi
@ AlmostGrown:
I agree with Scatman on WI + Mox:
@ Scatman:Quote:
Originally Posted by GoboLord
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoboLord
Thanks :-DQuote:
Originally Posted by ScatmanX
I know that's a viable build, however I'm not convinced it's the right way to go. Ofcourse you can implement alot of cute (win-more or win-in-very-specific-situations) tricks in your deck, however it does make it alot less consistent. The ADHD build has a strong focus on doing the most broken thing Goblins can do: connect with Lackey or Instigator. It's a very consistent build, that's why I like it. But ofcourse, that's just me, and that's just my personal opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoboLord
Also, the black splash is necessary, because of the low amount of Gempalm Incinerators, you need Perish to stand a chance against Zoo. It's the main reason to splash black.
You're right I think... Goblins is, indeed, an aggro deck with a fast clock. Playing the "control role" of goblins is pretty much giving up on some of the deck's synergy and triggers to keep up manadenial, which sometimes doesn't work as you wish (Rishadan Port is very Vial dependant). I'm not harassing the traditional lists, but if you play ADHD build with a very specific sideboard plan (to kill decks that you have a little trouble, not gathering cards for hating every single deck), you should do very fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skeggi
The list is basically the same, but with a few changes in sideboard:
Lands [22]
8 Mountain
4 Badlands
4 Auntie's Hovel
4 Wasteland
2 Chrome Mox
Core [26]
...
Others [12]
4 Goblin Chieftain
4 Warren Instigator
2 Warren Weirding
1 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Stingscourger
Sideboard [15]
4 Perish
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
Some explanations for sideboard (this might be very known to goblin players, but it's always good to remind stuff, lol):
4 Perish - The highest number possible, why? Because it simply clears the board against decks like Green and Taxes/Bant Aggro/New Horizons, or any deck that heavily relies on Goyf and KotR. These fatties are usually a lot of trouble if they can remove some of your goblins. Another thing I'd like to point out, is that this deck has only 4 shuffle effects (Matron), and if you Ringleader into Perish, you'll just lose it. That's why I don't run less than 4 pieces.
4 Chalice of the Void - I won't talk much about this card. It's simply the best flexible hate for almost every deck in legacy. It's range goes from Burn/Zoo/Team America/New Horizons (they run 4 Brainstorms, 4 Ponder, 4 Swords to Plowshares, 4 Stifle, yay!) to Belcher/TES/ANT/Elves Combo. Pretty much powerful.
4 Leyline of the Void - This list is OFTEN tapped out. You can't really rely on Relic of Progenitus or Nihil Spellbomb. The other option might be Tormod's Crypt, but why take the pistol if you can take the machine gun? And it stops those LED Dredge variants that love not letting you get a turn :)
2 Null Rod - This card is a little controversial. It clashes with Chrome Mox and AEther Vial. But it's just overkill against Affinity and MUD variants. They can't do anything. And it's also useful for decks that relies on Equipments (Green and Taxes, UW Tempo, etc...).
1 Pithing Needle - This card used to be a third Null Rod. But shutting off some trouble cards like Pernicious Deed, Grim Lavamancer, Knight of the Reliquary, Jace 2.0 (and all other planeswalkers), Equipments, and alot of other stuff worths at least a 1-of.
I don't see any reason (please think before you mention Stifle) not to run fetchlands instead of Auntie's Hovel. SOmething like this:
3 Badlands
7 Fetchlands
6 Mountain
4 Wastes
2 CMs
This way you virtually 10 R/B-lands (instead of 8) while being able to dodge Wastelands. With 6 cards in total (MD + SB) that demand B 3 Badlands + 7 fetches should be enough. Plus, fetchlands increase your shuffle-count (not that I find it important - you mentioned it as a reason for running 4 Perish). Plus, with an unused fetchland in play you can "counter" Jace TMS's ability once or at least partly prevent you opp from using the fateseal.
I can see the arguments for mogg war marshall, but im still not convinced even after playing with them. They seem to be a decent card in the zoo matchup and the mirror, but is it really good enough for 2 mana?
Why is zoo not a bad matchup? There are several problems:
-Their 1 drops are bigger then every creature in your deck
-Grim lavamancer kills a goblin a turn
-They have 12 spot removal maindeck (8 burn 4 path usually)
Goblins gameplan: survive until the late game and try to grind them out with card advantage from ringleader and siege-gang
Zoo gameplan: drop some early creatures and be aggresive while killing key goblins (warchief, chieftain, siege gang, instigator)
While war marshall effictively lets you gain 9 life by blocking 3 times, warren instigator often gains you more because they have to leave guys back in fear of scourger/incinerator on their only blocker, since you still usually win on the spot if it connects. What are they going to do with their wild nacatl when you have a vial on 2?
War marshall is ofcourse much better against removal, which is a valid point, but at the end of the day they are still just 1/1s, you won't ever trade them for a card, just for time (which is sometimes all you need).
If you turn 1 instigator and they go nacatl/ape you can also get them good with wasteland (and this sometimes works in later turns still)
I think war marshall might have a slight edge in the zoo matchup vs instigator, but in almost every other matchup (especially storm combo) instigator comes miles ahead.
Chalice vs Mindbreak trap: Chalice seems like a good option, as it's more versatile then mindbreak trap. You will definetely get more mileage out of your sideboard cards that way. However I think it's much weaker vs storm then mindbreak trap.
I play stormcombo a lot, and while chalice is an annoying card it's not unreasonable at all to win through it. Ideally you want to set it at 1, but unless you have mox you cannot do that before turn 2, which gives you the same problem as thorn of amethyst: that could very well be too slow on the draw.
Setting it at 0 on the draw is a decent backup plan, but that's easier to win through and leaves storm free to brainstorm/ponder into bounce or a kill.
Another problem is that suppose you are on the play and you cast turn 2 chalice @ 1, this means you are not casting warren instigator. In this case you are disrupting the storm player but you are also giving up a turn where you don't put any pressure on him, giving him more time to find an out.
Trap is just a free hatecard that leaves you all your mana available every turn to cast creatures and pressure the opponent, and it can give you free wins if it's unexpected. Yes the card gets weaker when they know about it, but combined with leyline and the potential fast clock that mox and instigator provide you have a reasonable chance to put them in a position where they can't play around it, or have to combo from too low life total and fizzle (due to disabling ill-gotten gains).
If your opponent Stifles your fetchland you're probably happy he didn't Stifle your Goblin Lackey or worse, Goblin Ringleader. I've never tried the fetches because the lifeloss actually counts against Zoo and Auntie's Hovel does a good job at making the 2 colours. It may be worth a shot if you need to dodge Wastelands. However, I can't recall when I had problems with Jace, the Mind Sculptor.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoboLord
In games 2 and 3, I firmly believe Chalice should be dropped above all else. I don't play ADHD, but my meta has Belcher in it, so Chalice at 0 can win games. Running 4-of also helps the chance of getting a second one out for 1. Against storm/belcher/combo, I prefer turn 1 lackey, chalice at 0. They can play Lotus Petal/LED/Chrome Mox if you stall on the Chalice, something I don't leave to chance.Quote:
Originally Posted by MattiasNL
EDIT:Hahaha, really?Quote:
Originally Posted by Skeggi
Against Belcher, I would suspect Mindbreak Trap is better than Chalice of the Void because you can play it turn 0.Quote:
Originally Posted by pater
I'm not sure what you mean with this comment.Quote:
Originally Posted by pater
Yeah that's what I said. "Stifle is not an argument against fetchlands."Quote:
Originally Posted by Skeggi
@MatthiasNL:
I agree with what you wrote about Chalice's Pro and Cons, but I think you are missing a point about Mindbreak Trap.
Mindbreak Trap ist totally vulnerable to Chants/Silence and Discard -both of them are ineffective against Chalice (at least ifyou want to set it @ 0). The problem about Trap is, that it has to stay on our hand until our opp goes off. Mostr often combo players will check out what hate we run anyways (thus play either Chant or a discard spell before they go off).
Mogg War Marshal is better than a lot of people are giving him credit for. He's good for chumping (3 times!), adding +4/+0 to Piledriver's attack, only has one red in the casting cost (which is great with Warchief/Port/Wasteland), doesn't force you into overextending (as Instigator sometimes can), is good to rebuild/stall after a sweeper is played, and is good with lords.
Instigator just wasn't good enough in my testing with him, which I admit probably was not enough to give him a fair chance. By turn two/three, which is when he hits the table (if you don't have the starting hand with one of your two Moxen), he is just a 1/1 doublestrike, which is not very threatening. At this point in the game, there is a small chance that he will connect. Even if he does connect, you're usually not going to be able to put in 2 relevant goblins, unless you have a godhand, because you already used up 5 cards (t1 land, Mox, removing a GOBLIN, WI. T2, land, attack).
The point is: If you have a Matron/Ringleader in your hand, the first strike from WI can cheat Matron/Ringleader (and trigger his "come in to play" ability to fetch another goblin [Hi, SGC!!!!!!]) and then use his second strike to drop the other goblin. And he's works as a decent blocker as well (better with multiple chieftains), because he can block anything X/1 and X/2.Quote:
Originally Posted by TossUsToLions
He's so broken. And you usually have a Matron/Ringleader when you connect with him.
I understand that, and it is amazing when it happens. Basically, it's gg. But, how often does this happen? You need have a hand of (1 of your 2) Chrome Mox, a land, a WI, and a Matron. That right there is what is known as a godhand. It is extremely rare for this to happen. Usually, your Instigator is hitting turn 2/3, and can't attack until turn 3/4. By then, your opponent will have blockers and/or a way to deal with the Instigator.
I am by no means saying that everyone else is wrong, and if everyone's testing of WI proves me wrong then I will shut up. I just don't agree that he is better than MWM in the current meta. Granted, WI IS better against fast combo decks, but in America (where I live), aggro is still the dominating archetype, and it is against aggro that MWM shines. Honestly, i do not like MWM as a card, but until a better 2-drop gobbo comes around (which i do not think that WI is), i will continue running at least 3 War Marshals.
MWM is a good blocker, sure thing.
But WI forces your opponent to keep at least 1 creature from attacking (which means less life loss). And in cases that he can connect he's just wonderful. But if you have a Chieftain online too, WI can take out a X/2 to X/4 blocker (they HAVE to block it). Perhaps the only other goblin that can take out a X/4 blocker is Piledriver, but people usually don't block him unless they're running low.
Playing WI on it's own isn't a huge thing. You can play a 1~2of and keep your MWM. But if you want to take his power to the maximum level, you need 4 WI + 4 Chieftains.