[Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)

Stoneblade and NO Bant both showed me Spell Snares, and I'd rather blank them than take a chance that it might possibly hit. Vs Nic Fit, I feel that Hymn isn't that great to keep in. Most Nic Fit decks have a tendency of emptying their hand rather quickly due to spewing forth lands. Also, it can be very dangerous if you hit a big threat and next turn they go Nightmare -> bring it back. I've done that, and I have no desire to be on the opposite side.

If you're in a combo heavy meta, though, ignore my arguments about taking out Hymn.

If you don't have Hymn vs. red burn and UR burn, you're almost guaranteed to lose. I wouldn't want to face Merfolk without Hymn either. Counters+early game pressure is difficult to beat, but I suppose in your version, you've got Academy Rectors to grab Moat, but they can still fly over it. I imagine the 3-color manabase makes it hard to cast Hymn, but in straight GB, I think Qweerios would agree that Hymn is a card that never (or almost never) gets boarded out. I would only board it out vs. Lands. The dodging Spell Snare argument is problematic because that means you can't even GSZ for 1 for Veteran Explorer. Sometimes, you can even just play around Spell Snare by waiting for them to tap out. For example, Stone Blade often taps out on turn 2 for Stoneforge. Lately, I've been seeing a lot more people playing Spell Pierce over Snare. Even so, there's only a certain number of decks that run Snare, and about a 40% chance it'll be in their opening hand or so. At worst, you can board out Hymn in G2 and G3 and they'll keep in their Snares. This deck doesn't have much to do on the early turns anyway. Is giving them free tempo (i.e., doing nothing on turn 2) really worth dodging Spell Snare for?

How is Hymn getting Spell Snared a problem? It's a 1 for 1 exchange that only ends in a 2 for 1 trade in your favor in the absence of said counterspell. I don't understand this whole ''dodge Spell Snare'' thing going on here. As far as I know, Spell Snare doesn't win games. Believe it or not, there are many decks out there that play plenty of 2 CMC spells and still manage to beat decks packing a whole playset of Spell Snares.

As far as the mirror goes, I have playtested against CalebD's version as well as a couple of different GBw versions several times. The whole matchup is played around Hymn and Therapy. You take turns stripping eachothers' hands and the first one to play a Top usually wins, otherwise nothing stays on the board for either side.

I agree with Greenpoe that Hymn is a card I would never side out (except against Dredge). Hymn is good against almost every single deck out there because it is never a play that leaves you at a disadvantage. It is one of these cards that almost always warrant a Force of Will despite the irony of its effect. Even against the fastest decks in the format Hymn is a good play. When a deck empties its hand fast, the window of opportunity for an Hymn is inversely proportional to its effect on the game. Landing an Hymn against a Burn deck is even more devastating than, say, ANT, and we all know how good Hymn is against ANT.

Hi all,

This is the list I'm playing at the moment. Pretty standard taken fra Caleb's list, with minor changes.

The list:
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Wall of Blossoms
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Genesis
2 Grave Titan

2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Dismember
2 Go for the Throat
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Liliana of the Veil

3 Bayou
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Forest
5 Swamp
2 Phyrexian Tower

SB: 3 Extirpate
SB: 4 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 Choke
SB: 1 Damnation
SB: 2 Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 Thrun, the Last Troll
SB: 1 Massacre Wurm
SB: 1 Kitchen Finks

I used to play the GBW list, as I liked the Rector tutoring and Sun Titan. Those two can make some pretty sick moves, but found it to be rather slow and in rare occaissions being colorscrewed, since the list required double white, black and green (maybe it's the list :rolleyes:).

Anyway, I'm loving the GB version. The creatures to tutor for is perfect (loving the Eternal Witnesses, don't leave home without them). Used to play Garruk, Primal hunter or Garruk, Relentless, but OMG GSZ is sick, when you got the lands you need. It's the icing on the cake.

Basicly, there's anything you need to answer pretty much everything, though Storm-Combo is bad (hence the SB).

Can't figure out if Mindbreak Trap is good or bad? Anyone?

Thrun is the Boss. Stick him and you win. Seriously, that's my experience. A guy at my local store once said, that if he lost to Thrun, he would quit Magic. Don't know if he has :laugh: haven't played him though, but he's a Storm-Combo player, so maybe that's not happening.

I'm testing Massacre Wurm as a SB card. It's neat in an aggro match-up and have stuck it once against Maverick. It was sick that time, but don't know if it's too narrow and waste of a SB space?

I love playing the deck because of the synergies and generelly how the plays (cards) fit together.

Two weeks ago I played a 5 round tournament at the local store and met Sneak Attack in round 1 and lost 0-2. But won the 4 last rounds against Mono White Weenie Equipment, 2xBUG Control and UW Control and split the 1st place. The last 3 rounds were pretty close and won 2 of them 1-0-1. Thrun singlehandedly won me two of the games and GSZ turned up when I needed it most. Luck? I don't know, but I'm playing the same list tomorrow, so we'll see :cool:

The new Sorin looks like a great compliment for us.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attac...9&d=1326258057

2WB

+1 1/1 lifelink vampire
-2 emblem, our creatures +1/+0
-6 destroy up to 3 other creatures or PW's, return under our control
starting loyalty = 3

As per your reply in the DKA thread, I don't think that he's going to replace Relentless, since Relentless actively allows us to sacrifice our stuff for greater threat/value. However, I'm going to look at trying to squeeze him in as a 1-of, to provide an additional means of attack. It's worth noting that his ult will allow us to sac dragons and return them to the battlefield for free, which may not be particularly relevant, but I'm sure there'll be a time when it'll matter. He's very reminiscent of Elspeth KE, although I still like her as a 1-of as well in my list, due to her ability to make things fly over Moat.

TL;DR Potentially relevant to us, but I don't think he's as important as Relentless.

I don't run Rector or Master of the Wild Hunt which makes Relentless feel pretty average in my list. I think that makes the transition to Sorin a lot easier. Similarly, I don't run moat so Elspeth's jump loses some utility.

Here are the results of a small local tournament with the following list:


Creatures (14)
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Eternal Witness
3 Abyssal Persecutor
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Deranged Hermit

Instant/Sorcery (18)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Terminate

Artifact/Enchantment
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed

Lands (22)
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
3 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Pyroblast
2 Consuming Vapors
1 Damnation
1 Gaddock Teeg


I traded my Thrun away not so long ago and didn't have one availlable.

Round 1: U/R Delver 2-0

Game 1: Some good early Therapy/Explorer action stripping 2 Spell Snares into Terminate + 2 Witness beatdown (terminated 2 Delvers and a Grim).

In: 3 REB, 3 Pyro, 2 Vapors.
Out: 1 Zealot, 1 Hermit, 3 Deed, 3 Pulse

Game 2: Blasts coupled with Percy take the game quite convincingly.

Round 2: Pox 0-2

Game 1: I lose the die roll, I lay a T1 Top. My opponent opens up with 2 Dark Rituals, 2 Sinkholes, and 2 Smallpox in the next 4 turns. Top allows me a land drop every turn but my opponent keeps me contained. When I finally get two mana to GSZ for an Explorer on turn 6 (Toping for lands every turn), I get Poxed, leaving me with 2 lands and less than 10 life. Two Mishra's Factory beat me to death while I am holding 2 Pulse.

No sideboard changes since the matchup is heavily in my favor.

Game 2: I start with a T1 Top again. My opponent proceeds to stripping my hand with Inquisition of Kozilek and Hymn to Tourach while I land a Therapy/Explorer nailing 2 Smallpox. A Pox follows nuking us both to 3 lands and 10 hp. I Deed away a Mishra and play a Finks. My opponent lands a Nether Spirit followed by two Cursed Scrolls that eventually take me to zero life as I hold a Percy in hand with three lands in play.

Round 3: Reanimator 1-2

Game 1: I lose the die roll and open up with a Therapy on Exhume to which my opponent responds with an Entomb for Elesh Norn. Elesh Norn allows me to fetch 4 basics with 2 Explorers and cast 2 Pulse on Elesh Norn (the first one gets countered). Norn gets reanimated once more when I am holding a Finks and a Zealot. My opponent then reanimated a Gin Gitaxias and stomped me.

In: 1 Crypt, 2 Spellbomb, 2 Extractions, 3 REB, 3 Blasts, 2 Vapors.
Out: 4 Hymn, 3 Deed, 3 Pulse, 1 Hermit, 1 Finks, 1 Zealot

Game 2: I open up with Therapy on Reanimate. My opponent Entombs an Iona on his T1 but I am holding a Pyroblast, a Crypt, and an Extraction. I extract his Iona on his T2 Exhume and Blast his FoW. I follow up with a Nihil Spellbomb, draw into another Extraction and GSZ for an Ooze... my opponent scoops.

Game 3: My opponent Entombs an Iona. I Therapy for a Reanimate but my opponent is holding an Exhume with 2 Fow, a Careful Study, and no lands. I lay an Explorer and Flashback Therapy, eating the 2 FoW, then I GSZ for Ooze. My opponent Exhumes his Iona, naming Black and dumps 2 Gitaxias with a Careful Study. I pump ooze to 5/5 eating away the Gins and my Explorer, puting me at 23 hp and proceed to race iona with a 5/5 Ooze and a fetched Dryad Arbor. I am holding Vapors, Percy, and Therapy when my opponent uses Echoing Truth on Ooze as I was about to finish him. Iona kills me the turn after as I draw a Pyroblast... FML

Round 4: U/R Delver again 1-2

Game 1: I lose the die roll, my opponent opens up Delver, I open with an Explorer that meets a Daze. Delver flips on a Brainstorm and my opponent lays a Goblin Guide beating me for 5 on T2. I GSZ an explorer on T2 while my opponent flies over. I attempt to Pulse the Delver but meet a FoW. The next turn I get hit by Delver again followed by a Chain Lightning and 2 Bolts, there goes 20 of my life points.

In: 3 REB, 3 Pyro, 2 Vapors
Out: 3 Deed, 3 Terminate (I know he sides out FoW for Spell Snare), 1 Hermit, 1 Zealot

Game 2: I open up with a Top, my opponent opens up Delver again. I Top on T2 while my opponent Ponders, his Delver didn't flip. I Hymn 2 lands away. Delver flips and Goblin Guide follows, I start taking damage. I GSZ an Explorer to stop Guide from swinging. I cast a Percy that my opponent taps with Ice and swings with Delver again. My life total is getting low but we are at a standstill with my Percy stopping Delver and my Explorers stopping Guide. I land a second Percy and take a PoP and a Bolt leaving me at 1 life, my opponent has 20 life. I Pulse Delver and lay another Explorer then swing for 12. My opponent draws a land, I play Witness, getting back Pulse then I pass the turn. My opponent draws another land and I swing for 12 again followed by a Pulse on both Percy.

Game 3: I get an Explorer on the field but don't manage to sac him. My opponent beats me down with 2 Delvers and a Clique while Dazing my removal. I finally manage to destroy a Delver with a REB but I take another 6 damage swing on T4 followed by a Bolt and a Fireblast.

Overall, a pretty dissapointing performance. I was prepared for all of these matchups but couldn't pull through. I could argue that my opponents had some pretty good hands but I don't think that would amount to anything constructive. What I take away from this event:

-Finks isn't good enough against U/R Delver. Any other GSZ target is as good if not better (Ooze and Witness for instance). Scryb Ranger would do a better job... I am seriously considering Sporecap Spider at this point. :(

-REB and Pyro are extremely effective and I wish I saw more than 1 per game.

-A second Phyrexian Tower may be a good call.

Thanks for taking the time to type that out. Your matches highlight why I love white for STP. 1 mana to dodge snare and accommodate daze, can hit manlands, and makes Iona a roll of the dice. However, the blasts looked like they were amazingly strong. There looks to be a deficit of PW's. Maybe you can go -1 pulse, -1 hymn, for 2 bolts/liliana's.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by conboy31

Thanks for taking the time to type that out. Your matches highlight why I love white for STP. 1 mana to dodge snare and accommodate daze, can hit manlands, and makes Iona a roll of the dice. However, the blasts looked like they were amazingly strong. There looks to be a deficit of PW's. Maybe you can go -1 pulse, -1 hymn, for 2 bolts/liliana's.

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In a similar vein, re: removal, in a straight GB version (my personal preference) I think Beast Within has a place in the 75 for those same reasons. It's instant speed Pulse #4-5 and dodges Spell Snare and crap like Iona. It's also an added answer for JTMS, which this deck can stuggle against. And for dodging Daze, I've found Dismember to be adequate.

Another SB option I've been testing is Tsunami over Choke. It's had a lot more synergy with Explorers flooding the board with basics that Choke for me. You don't have to force them to tap out to make it effective, especially if you've stripped their hand with Therapy/Hymn and it's a top deck war.

When they topdeck a Jace with untapped lands and a Choke in play, they probably win anyway. If you Tsunami them and they draw a Jace, it's a dead card, especially if you baited them into potentially getting 2 basic islands with your Explorer.

That and UW decks are packing more Disenchant and Krosan Grip outs for decks like Maverick that run similar SB cards too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tao

Nic Fit Top8ed the German 242 man "Win a Lotus" Legacy tournament. Lists are not out yet, hope they come soon.

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Lists up yet? :smile:

You can find the Nic Fit list here:

http://www.mercadia.de/home/page.php.../deck&id=89330

Qweerios, how has Viridian Zealot been? He seems too slow for my tastes. I would rather just run more Pulses/Deeds if you have serious issues with artifacts. If it's for Batterskull, I think Glissa is a more effective solution. Also, have you tried running 1 Grave Titan and 1 Fierce Empath? I cut the third Witness for 1 Fierce Empath, and he's been great, since both cards occupy a card-advantage slot, its just that one grabs from the library instead of graveyard. GSZ->Fierce Empath->Grave Titan is an entirely viable play. I like Grave Titan because whenever he hits the board, they concede within a turn.

I'm surprised you aren't running any extra Kitchen Finks in the SB. They're great vs. burn/Delver burn, Goblins, and Pox (surviving two sacrifice effects is good vs. Liliana especially). Surviving a Deed is a nice bonus, too.

I'm trying out a single Dosan the Falling Leaf and 2 extra Thruns instead of Choke or Tsunami in the SB.

PollePotDK, what's the Genesis for? Why not just play Eternal Witness for recursion, especially if you're going to be GSZ'ing for it? Also, why only 3 Hymn? With just two colors, it's easy to cast in GB and it's awesome in multiples. Why do you run Wall of Blossoms as a 1-of? The only time I can imagine GSZ'ing for it would be vs. Zoo, but in that case it's more of a SB card.

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Originally Posted by Philipp2293

You can find the Nic Fit list here:

http://www.mercadia.de/home/page.php.../deck&id=89330

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I used his GP Amsterdam list as a starting point once I gave up on the BG version. The changes I made could be meta dependent, but are: -1 SDT, -1 Elspeth, -1 Garruk, -1 horizon canopy, -1 master of the wild hunt. +2 maelstrom pulse, +1 glissa, +1 kitchen finks, +1 scav. ooze.
I have currently omitted non-liliana walkers from the deck, I feel like they are right on the fringe as the 59/60/61st cards. Also, it seems like Wild Hunt and Relentless go hand in hand for non-rector builds. I really enjoy the extra finks and ooze maindeck. Having two of each goes a long way against the delver decks and double ooze is relevant against any gy deck. In the Gb.w versions 2 or 3 tops and 21 or 22 lands is correct. Probably the 22nd land being utility (bojuka bog/canopy/urbog/wildwood/etc) if the 4 mana walkers are added.
Small edit-> I really want to be playing with 4 mana bombs like Elspeth/Relentless/etc, but I found that turn 3 crucial. It is more about catching up and equalizing. Then, allowing for witness, sun titan, rec nightmare, thrun, ooze + Xgreen to take over the game. Pulse and Finks are often the equalizing three drops.

@Greenpoe

Viridian Zealot is fine. He is pretty close to a Pridemage.

That German Nic Fit list looks like it was designed to beat a lot of Maverick...

@Greenpoe: I'm trying out Genesis for recursion, but after playing last night (misable 1-3, won over Goblins, lost to RUG Tempo, Bant Aggro, High Tide) I'm taking it out, since I sideboarded it out all the time and never wanted to GSZ for it. Taking in a Bird instead to mana/colorfixing. The Wall is nice, I think, in the start with card draw, but maybe it should go out but don't know what to take in. Don't want to lower the creature count anymore than it is. Maybe Glissa. She's nice even if there's no aritfacts in the deck.

I'm running 3 Hymn because of space issues. Btw I have experienced some problemes with the mana/colorfixing in the early stages of the game. If I meet wasteland decks, I'm allways going for basic lands (if I don't have Veteran in hand) and then it's a problem, because of double black and double green. Got screwed alot last night because of that, where I was in a dominating position had I been able to get (got the balls to go for :wink:) the right manabase.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PollePotDK

Maybe Glissa. She's nice even if there's no aritfacts in the deck.

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You may or may not run two SDT's :wink:

Useful artifacts - it's not like it's Engineered Explosive :smile:

I pointed that out as I too run 2 SDT's but Glissa has never brought one back to play. I'm sure at some point in time a SDT will get dazed and Glissa will run to save it for me. If I were to run a single artifact to supplement her it would probably be 1 executioners capsule for the combo or 1 Batterskull. Edit-> Cursed Scroll and the aforementioned EE are also on the radar.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PollePotDK

I'm running 3 Hymn because of space issues. Btw I have experienced some problemes with the mana/colorfixing in the early stages of the game. If I

meet wasteland decks, I'm allways going for basic lands (if I don't have Veteran in hand) and then it's a problem, because of double black and

double green. Got screwed alot last night because of that, where I was in a dominating position had I been able to get (got the balls to go for

:wink:) the right manabase.

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I'm surprised the manabase has bothered you enough to not have the 4th Hymn. It's been fine for me, and we're running roughly the same manabase, just with a Dryad Arbor, which is good for when you need extra mana but don't want Explorer/don't have a sac outlet. Sometimes you can EOT fetch Dryad Abor off a fetch and sac it to Phyrexian Tower to that extra 1 mana. For reference, here's my current list. It might look a bit odd because there's so many 1-ofs, but they're all there for a reason and I'm more than happy to draw any of them. I don't run any creatures that seem too narrow in the MD, either. Anything I would side out more than half the time would be too narrow, but I generally keep most of the toolbox guys in. I haven't found space for Tops because, well, Tops are good in the late game, but I'm primarily worried about the early game. To avoid running of out gas, I made sure wanted to go with green creatures for NO that would give me card advantage.


// Lands
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
2 [B] Bayou
2 [US] Phyrexian Tower
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ISD] Forest
5 [MI] Swamp
1 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
4 [WL] Veteran Explorer
1 [CS] Ohran Viper
2 [FD] Eternal Witness
1 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
4 [WWK] Abyssal Persecutor
1 [MBS] Thrun, the Last Troll
1 [CMD] Hornet Queen
1 [M11] Gaea's Revenge
1 [M12] Grave Titan
1 [ARC] Fierce Empath

// Spells
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [VI] Natural Order
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach
2 [ISD] Liliana of the Veil

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [CS] Ohran Viper
SB: 3 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 [CMD] Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 [CHK] Dosan the Falling Leaf
SB: 4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 1 [MPR] Damnation