Re: [Deck] UWb Esperblade
I think the best GY-hate card, from the perspective of fighting opposing Digs/Cruises, has got to be Deathrite Shaman. In the past, the "Deathblade with basics" blends of these two decks haven't been successful, but maybe there's a way to do it with these new cards.
I haven't had the chance to do much with Treasure Cruise yet, as I instinctively feel that Dig Through Time must be better for this deck. Here's what I've found.
- Resolving Dig is often a prelude to glorious victory
- I can often tap out and pay 3-5 mana for Dig at EOT with little danger
- Dig's best friend is Thoughtseize
- Dig also likes serious removal, Council's Judgment or Vindicate, and sweepers
The best Digs I resolved were fairly late in the game on a relatively clean board. What surprised me most was probably #2, that Dig is actually quite easy on the graveyard. Just saving Dig as one of my last spells, to put me ahead when everything else gets traded 1-for-1, and being an instant means that I can tap whatever mana I've built up to pay for it. So I think the load that a normal Esper deck places on the graveyard, Lingering Souls and Snapcaster, is not a problem for Diggers in the same way it might pose a problem for Cruisers.
Thoughtseize was totally the best card to have after resolving a Dig. In 7 cards I could usually find a threat that would devastate the board if left unanswered. The Modern "Force of Will" takes their answer for one mana, if they have it, and then I get to play it. Strong removal or a sweeper were good too, if I was a little behind on the board.
My own conclusion is that Dig must be played in this kind of deck. It's not win-more. This one card can bring you from behind to parity, or from parity to advantage, all by itself.
Re: [Deck] UWb Esperblade
Hello guys, I am from the Jund forum. I was wondering, how do you guys beat Lands?
Re: [Deck] UWb Esperblade
That's funny that you bring that up because I was just stomped on by a lands player today at a tournament. What I did was try to pithing needle relevant lands then put a clock on the table. The problem was that I couldn't find more than a few creatures that all got immediately punishing fired and he eventually found the kgrip for needle on port which allowed him to sneak marit lage in for 20. It's not a very common matchup but it's a really poor one.
Re: [Deck] UWb Esperblade
I've been testing the suggestions made (+1 snapcaster, 2 ponders instead of 1) and a third island over tar pit, and I must say that, although very little, those changes have made a HUGE impact on the deck. Now I'm 100% sure that 2 ponder is a must, and the third snapcaster works nicely also. I'm not sure why, but I've always thought that 3 was too much, and that I would have them stuck on my hand. That's absolutely wrong.
The deck is feeling much more grindier, and I'm loving it again. :laugh:
Re: [Deck] UWb Esperblade
Hey, I'm just starting to build this deck right now and I'm wondering if anyone has a more up-to date list. Also wondering if there is any place for something like containment priest in this deck, or is that looking in the wrong direction?
Re: [Deck] UWb Esperblade
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lormador
...
Thoughtseize was totally the best card to have after resolving a Dig. In 7 cards I could usually find a threat that would devastate the board if left unanswered. The Modern "Force of Will" takes their answer for one mana, if they have it, and then I get to play it. Strong removal or a sweeper were good too, if I was a little behind on the board.
My own conclusion is that Dig must be played in this kind of deck. It's not win-more. This one card can bring you from behind to parity, or from parity to advantage, all by itself.
I agree with all of this.
I played a Dig heavy UW control list at GP NJ. I didn't make day 2, but the 4 Brainstorm/4 Ponder/4 Dig line up felt really good. Dig let me beat a turn 3 Grave Titan out of Nic Fit after getting Cabal Therapied twice.
Your comments make me pretty sure the card I was really missing was Thoughtsieze to protect my own threats. It seems like it would make for much better aggressive Dig Through Time's.
Re: [Deck] UWb Esperblade
It is tough to justify playing Esper over UWR atm when Pyromancer gives you so much velocity, pyroblast being so good, bolt being good vs. the large amount of U/R Delver/D&T etc and Thoughtseize being so bad vs. UR Delver & Burn.
I have been trying a more controlling version with Digs but have come to realize that even if you dig twice in a game you don't necessarily win and players just out tempo/velocity you.
I want to try a focused,low to the ground, tapout & proactive version that looks something like this:
Creatures (11)
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Baleful Strix
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Vendilion Clique
Sorceries (12)
4 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize
4 Treasure Cruise
Instants (14)
4 Brainstorm
2 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
Artifacts (3)
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
Lands (20)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
Sideboard (15)
1 Flusterstorm
2 Hydroblast
1 Path to Exile
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Disenchant
2 Meddling Mage
1 Containment Priest
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Council's Judgment
1 Supreme Verdict
Re: [Deck] UWb Esperblade
I am also considering going the opposite route and become bigger and more controlly. If we can't be as "tempo" orientated as UWr versions running Pyro and G-Probe (BBD's list) then let's go back to the old bomb heavy/control version.
Creatures (12)
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Vendilion Clique
Sorceries (6)
2 Ponder
3 Thoughtseize
1 Council's Judgment
Instants (15)
4 Brainstorm
1 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
Artifacts (2)
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
Planeswalkers (3)
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Lands (22)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Karakas
Sideboard (15)
2 Flusterstorm
2 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Spell Pierce
1 Path to Exile
1 Pithing Needle
1 Thoughtseize
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Disenchant
2 Containment Priest
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Batterskull
Re: [Deck] UWb Esperblade
I've been an avid supporter of esper for a long time, but once tc got printed and UR became one of the top contenders, I had to give up the deck. The main reasons to play black--drs, thoughtseize, and lingering souls-- just aren't that strong in the current meta. DRS's survival rate to untap has significantly dropped as most of the popular decks run 7-8 md'd removals now (UR, UWR, miracles). Thoughtseize is similarly just poorly positioned to match up against the slew of aggressive red decks (but may be more worthwhile as white makes a resurgence). And finally, souls has been losing traction as it doesn't really profitably block swiftspear/pyro (keeps making more tokens) and is easily negated by the increased number of forked bolts and jittes.
I've tried a couple variations on the deck in order to incorporate the new delve cards as well as to md more removal, but it just felt like the deck could still get run over by UR if it stumbles just a turn or two.
Re: [Deck] UWb Esperblade
hello there! when i finally got my stonebladelist together it became so bad in the current meta... Well i tried to adjust the list to work better, ive gone more control, thats my intention anyways. Would be very glad if someone coult get some input on it.
I just want to say that this is my first legacylist ever and im very humble in your opinions. Havnt got the time yet to play against the local meta at my LGS cuz of my almost newborn daughter and job...(next year i will have 6 months without work, thank you sweden for daddydays! :cool:) But i know that the meta is very much t1.
I hope you get what im writing, and i will try to work on my english.
Oops forgot to post the list...
Land (21)
4x Flooded Strand
3x Island
1x Karakas
2x Marsh Flats
1x Plains
4x Polluted Delta
1x Scrubland
1x Swamp
2x Tundra
2x Underground Sea
Creature (9)
2x Snapcaster Mage
4x Stoneforge Mystic
2x True-Name Nemesis
1x Vendilion Clique
Instant (16)
4x Brainstorm
1x Counterspell
1x Dig Through Time
4x Force of Will
2x Spell Pierce
4x Swords to Plowshares
Sorcery (8)
1x Council's Judgment
1x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Ponder
1x Supreme Verdict
3x Thoughtseize
Artifact (3)
1x Batterskull
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Umezawa's Jitte
Planeswalker (3)
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
Sideboard
2x Extirpate
2x Geist of Saint Traft
2x Meddling Mage
1x Pithing Needle
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Rest in Peace
1x Supreme Verdict
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Vindicate
1x Zealous Persecution
Re: [Deck] UWb Esperblade
I love esper but have shelved it recently. Since the delve spells I have a hard time justifying not playing a deck with red elemental blast, and playing a deck with discard instead. I don't think esper is too great right now, but there are some things you, trolliver, can do to make your list better:
- If you can't beat them, join them. The delve spells are very powerful in the esper shell as well. Play no less than 3 Digs or cruises. If your curve is higher, your goal to be more of a control deck, and your deck with more instants/flash dudes, dig is the way to go. A more aggressive curve or a tappout control strategy will make cruise better for you.
- Spell pierce is pretty weak right now, and pretty weak in esper.
- Lingering souls is one of the main attractions to play esper over URW. I would run at least 2. 2 Souls, 2 TNN is fine. As is 3 Souls and 0 TNN.
- I do not think Council's judgement in the MD is needed right now. EE can do the same thing but better.
- The 3rd island, sorin, 1 MD clique are questionable.
- Your sideboard needs a lot of work. Darkblast, containment priest and Blue Elemental blast in particular are cards I would definitely run in this deck.
- Clique/karakas has gotten weaker lately.
I was thinking about playing esper a couple days ago, and this is the list I would play if I played the deck tomorrow:
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Lingering Souls
1 Intuition
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Darkblast
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Thoughtseize
4 Treasure Cruise
2 Island
3 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
2 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
Sideboard:
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Containment Priest
1 Council's Judgment
1 Disenchant
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Flusterstorm
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Zealous Persecution
The intuition thing is just something I was trying out, and might be bad. Swap an intuition and a souls for 2 TNN if you'd like, and the 2 Therapy with something else. Also, the 3rd tundra and sea are not needed if it is an availability issue for you, just replace them with more fetches/basics. Deluge might be better as verdict, but I really like having no WW cards in the deck if possible. And with less pierces being played, deluge is less of a liability.
Re: [Deck] UWb Esperblade
-
thanks for the great input buddy. Just with a glimpse of your list it feels alot more streamlined and more well suited for the meta. I will try your list with a little tweak (does not have all the cards...but most of them). Must drag my as to the lgs. I see forward to post the results in a near future.
Re: [Deck] UWb Esperblade
I've been having some success with thoptor foundry. I took out true name and souls for them. I've gone against jund and a uw tempo deck with fairly high success rates. Anyone else try this recently?
Re: [Deck] UWb Esperblade
Quote:
Originally Posted by
solidbass
I've been having some success with thoptor foundry. I took out true name and souls for them. I've gone against jund and a uw tempo deck with fairly high success rates. Anyone else try this recently?
:O!!!!??!?!
I've been doing a lot of experimenting in BUG and Esper with Thopter Combo; can I see your list? My deathblade list was a bit wonky I think and had some major D&T issues (The games ran long, then I couldn't deal with equipped dudes.) My Thopter portion was a 3/1/3 split of SFM/Sword/Foundry. I've been brewing with Thopter combo as a way to deal with the ever-present miracles problem while generally being good against Fair decks including Delver variants.
My BUG brew was also quite decent against Jund (it was basically Shardless with Thopters jammed in in place of Lily and some discard) and my experience has been that Baleful Strix is not only a decent way to get your sword back; but extremely good at slowing Delver.
Anyway, a list would be grand!
Re: [Deck] UWb Esperblade
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tescrin
:O!!!!??!?!
I've been doing a lot of experimenting in BUG and Esper with Thopter Combo; can I see your list? My deathblade list was a bit wonky I think and had some major D&T issues (The games ran long, then I couldn't deal with equipped dudes.) My Thopter portion was a 3/1/3 split of SFM/Sword/Foundry. I've been brewing with Thopter combo as a way to deal with the ever-present miracles problem while generally being good against Fair decks including Delver variants.
My BUG brew was also quite decent against Jund (it was basically Shardless with Thopters jammed in in place of Lily and some discard) and my experience has been that Baleful Strix is not only a decent way to get your sword back; but extremely good at slowing Delver.
Anyway, a list would be grand!
My split is quite similar. I haven't tested the miracles matchup but I can't see this being much worse than other variants of Blade. Once I finally came upon the realization that Jace just isn't good right now (blasphemy, I know) I didn't want to give up the "inevitability" that Jace can have so I figured the thoptor foundry combo might work. Anyways, I've been fiddling around with it and it's pretty powerful. On a spicy sidenote; Tezzeret? I know it might be crazy but 5/5s for days!!!
Anyways here's the list:
Creatures:
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
Instants and Sorceries:
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Spell Pierce
3 Treasure Cruise
2 Counterspell
2 Ponder
1 Council's Judgement
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Enlightened Tutor
Other:
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of the Meek
3 Thoptor Foundry
1 Engineered Explosives
Lands:
3 Islands
2 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Flooded Strand
2 Marsh Flats
3 Polluted Delta
2 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas
The sideboard is a bit of a mess but something like:
2-4 Thooughtseize
1-2 Zealous Persecution
1 Back to Basics
1-2 Pithing Needle
X Containment Priests and/or Meddling Mages
X Humility (might be too cute)
1-2 Grafdigger's Cage
Additional removal/ sweepers like Supreme Verdict and path to exile
X Jace maybe
1-2 Disenchant
X Blue Elemental Blast
So yes the deck can be quite clunky at times. However, what I gain is superiority in pretty much all grindy matchups. Anyone have any tips or insight?
Re: [Deck] UWb Esperblade
Quote:
Originally Posted by
solidbass
stuff
I was running a 2xTezz in place of Jace in the "Shardless" version. I like the idea of Tezz + Thopters since they're both so good against miracles; which tells you my position on what it does to them. If you have 4 mana you can shut out 5 angels. They can't Terminus you into extinction very well and they can't Jace you out if Tezz or Thopters are online. Miracles is indeed the entire reason I'm brewing in this direction.
I'm running a couple of Deluge since Thopters don't care and it takes care of a lot of board states. I was thinking of going DRS since the 1-2 lands is a fine splash and the additional protection from Grave-combo is ever-helpful. Ramping Tezz and Thopter combo seems important as well.
Something to note about the list; with only one SotM and no 1/1s you can have a hard time getting the sword back if you don't have an extra artifact lying around. If going Tezz I feel like Baleful Strix is an ok way to go in that case. But maybe I'm just rambling.
The rest of my deck was wonky, so I can't say much. Again, I went 0-4 with D&T (even with 2xDeluge) but I had a lot of mediocre cards flying around, so maybe it'd be better with a version like yours. The deck in general feels weak to Mom/Thalia and that's becoming bigger in my area (2+ Mavericks, 4+ D&Ts) and Deluge helps with Merfolk or something as well (since you can wipe them and possibly stabilize on Thopter lifegain.)
If running Tezz, the numbers look like:
10 Artifacts -> 40% chance of wiffing his +1
15 Artifacts -> 23% chance of wiffing his +1
20 Artifacts -> 13% chance of wiffing his +1
So I'd swap Ponders for Top to start. Top (if you find it) also cranks that number to 100%, which makes it good if you don't push the Artifact numbers. It turns his +1 into a mere "draw a card and spend {1}" but at least you hit. Looking at the top 3 can also allow you to make sure something is there. With Tezz I think I'd end up adding some Strix to stabilize against Delver (especially UR), Goyf, and BSK. I think Revoker may be handy in place of some of your anti-combo as well; simply because he helps with the Equip/Mom problems too.
Again, this is mostly theory talking, but I'm excited to be talking to *someone* about it.
Re: [Deck] UWb Esperblade
@tescrin
I feel like with all the suggestions you are making you might be better off just going straight to a Tezzerator style deck; bascially, where do you we draw the line here?
For me the cool part is that there is potential to just play the normal grindy UW SFM game and get the free wins that come with SFM -> Equip, but then also a long game trump in the form of Thopters for the MUs like Miracles or Punishing Fire decks where the man-plan is no good.
I like the direction solidbass is going; although isn't Dig Through Time (over Cruise) way better for us in this type of deck? I'm also skeptical of the 1 of E Tutor; it's generally agreed its too clunky / inconsistent but I could see it coming out of the SB depending on what other bullets we want to be bringing in (RIP, Humility, etc)
tescrin the idea of adding in Top is cool, as that makes it much more viable to bring in CB post-board if that's a direction we'd want to explore. And Tezzeret does let us spam 5/5 flyers with Foundry...
I feel like there HAS to be something here...
Re: [Deck] UWb Esperblade
Quote:
I was running a 2xTezz in place of Jace in the "Shardless" version. I like the idea of Tezz + Thopters since they're both so good against miracles; which tells you my position on what it does to them. If you have 4 mana you can shut out 5 angels. They can't Terminus you into extinction very well and they can't Jace you out if Tezz or Thopters are online. Miracles is indeed the entire reason I'm brewing in this direction.
My issue with Shardless is the build around required. I love my counterspells too much.
The combination of tezz and thoptors seems quite powerful against miracles assuming you can get one or the other online. Do you have any playtesting against them with either a just thoptor list and/or tezz thoptor list? My meta has a fair amount of Miracles and with a more classical build of Stoneblade the matchup is less than favorable, to put it lightly.
Quote:
I'm running a couple of Deluge since Thopters don't care and it takes care of a lot of board states. I was thinking of going DRS since the 1-2 lands is a fine splash and the additional protection from Grave-combo is ever-helpful. Ramping Tezz and Thopter combo seems important as well.
I like the idea of Toxic Deluge. Casting a sweeper a turn earlier sounds pretty sweet. Especially with UR delver being a thing.
DRS is a great card, however, with more removal seeming to be a thing he becomes a little worse. I personally don't run him because of the midrangeyness he brings to the deck.
You're right with SotM being a problem to recur at times. Baleful Strix sounds like an excellent addition. I was mulling over SDT but my issue is it's slower than ponder and doesn't fill up my GY for TC. If I'm giving Tezz serious thought, artifact lands seem great as well but then I'm giving up a few points to Burn and losing the Back to Basics plan in the side. But if I'm gunning for it; Transmute Artifact? Stoneblade tezzerator sounds totally awesome to me lol.
Re: [Deck] UWb Esperblade
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MrShine
@tescrin
I feel like with all the suggestions you are making you might be better off just going straight to a Tezzerator style deck; bascially, where do you we draw the line here?
For me the cool part is that there is potential to just play the normal grindy UW SFM game and get the free wins that come with SFM -> Equip, but then also a long game trump in the form of Thopters for the MUs like Miracles or Punishing Fire decks where the man-plan is no good.
I like the direction solidbass is going; although isn't Dig Through Time (over Cruise) way better for us in this type of deck? I'm also skeptical of the 1 of E Tutor; it's generally agreed its too clunky / inconsistent but I could see it coming out of the SB depending on what other bullets we want to be bringing in (RIP, Humility, etc)
tescrin the idea of adding in Top is cool, as that makes it much more viable to bring in CB post-board if that's a direction we'd want to explore. And Tezzeret does let us spam 5/5 flyers with Foundry...
I feel like there HAS to be something here...
That's the problem with Tezz, building around him just leads to building Tezzerator in most repects. However, with that in mind, he's still powerful and worth looking into.
The E. Tutor has been something I've been testing. For one, it's rarely dead, it's just a bit slow at times. Also, I know people always said card disadvantage blah blah. That was before Treasure Cruise. I'll 2 for 1 myself for the card I want if I know I'll just be 3 for 1ing later.
DTT vs. TC is something I have yet to figure out and honestly I've tried both fairly extensively and I've come to the conclusion that maybe 2 cards out of 7 is better sometimes but 3 cards is still 3 cards they're essentially equal. I will not debate TC vs DTT!
My biggest issue is how I will fare against the delver matches. The thoptor combo could be too clunky against delver and create unnecessary losses.
Re: [Deck] UWb Esperblade
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MrShine
@tescrin
I feel like with all the suggestions you are making you might be better off just going straight to a Tezzerator style deck; bascially, where do you we draw the line here?
tescrin the idea of adding in Top is cool, as that makes it much more viable to bring in CB post-board if that's a direction we'd want to explore. And Tezzeret does let us spam 5/5 flyers with Foundry...
UBTezz doesn't interest me much given all the mana rocks, sol lands, it's a chalice deck, etc.. I've been thinking on CB as well. Unsure. The second you become a chalice deck that's where I'd draw the line. That said, I should say I don't necessarily mean "Do all the things", just pointing out a lot of cards that could help various MUs or the Combo.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
solidbass
My issue with Shardless is the build around required. I love my counterspells too much.
The combination of tezz and thoptors seems quite powerful against miracles assuming you can get one or the other online. Do you have any playtesting against them with either a just thoptor list and/or tezz thoptor list? My meta has a fair amount of Miracles and with a more classical build of Stoneblade the matchup is less than favorable, to put it lightly.
@Shardless
Yeah. It's a bit much for a design restriction, it just seem(s/ed) like a good fit since i was swapping a 4-mana card for a 4-mana card and stuffing thopters where visions were.
@Miracles/Playtesting
I have very little experience on this; I'm merely in a brewing mindset for Thopters and noticed you talking about it. I like the Top mostly for the intereaction with Tezz (not only bringing up artifact count, but giving guaranteed +1's and such.) I'm not currently stuffing a Delve card in since Thopter Combo and Tezz are value slots; if that makes sense. I'm not even sure if I want Esper/BUG/4Color yet given my reservations about being CB'd out.
I come from a Junk background so my current list is centered around Black/discard, with CSpells supplementing it/mostly in the side. The amount of D&T and Maverick invading my meta make FoW really bad so that's part of my motivation on deck choices. Centering around black allows me to use Tidehollow Sculler as well; which I've liked a lot in DGA/Junk builds.
I like the idea of going to CB as a means of getting one-sided chalice locks and such. There are just so many choices in the color set that my practice has only scratched the surface of how to make Thopter Combo work properly.
