Ban on Brainstorm: Yes or No (Post Snapcaster Mage)

I think a lot of this discussion has to do with the printing of Snapcaster Mage, obviously. Flashing back a Lightning Bolt right now is almost as a good of a play if you ask me (it really has been winning just as many if not more games in decks running a combination of Bolt/Brainstorm/Mage), so I'm not sold on all the "ban Brainstorm" banter that's going around. Brainstorm is very good, but not quite good enough to warrant a ban on its own merit.

I liken it to what Zilla said: it's really only good as good as your deck (and timing) is.

In some parts of the world Snapcaster/Swords and/or Snapcaster/Snare seem pretty good too.

Edit: Snapcaster/w/e is really good.

I agree. Snapcaster Mage is what's warping the meta at the moment. It has this weird effect where it makes sense to play graveyard hate to keep them from gaining advantage with the little fucker, only the decks that play him punish you for playing narrow cards like graveyard hate, so doing so only puts you in a worse position. But then you run into the problem of them having access to 8 of everything in their deck, at instant speed, with the ability to attack you with it afterwards.

So what do you do about it? Banning Brainstorm won't do any good. Snapcaster Mage will still break the game wide open, and Thresh decks won't even blink at the banning. Combo, on the other hand, will be significantly weakened, along with control.

Can something like Goblins compete at that point? I don't think it can unless it does something to deal with 8 Swords to Plowshares/Lightning Bolt/whatever in every maindeck.

Honestly, when everything is said and done, I think banning Brainstorm would actually just further polarize the format into Snapcaster Mage decks vs. Hate decks

Maybe we'll get a solution in the new Planechase product next summer. It's supposed to have more new eternal-legal cards in it, which I guess is going to be commonplace from now on.

Ethersworn Canonist.

Two spells what?

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Originally Posted by rukcus

Ethersworn Canonist.

Two spells what?

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Swords, targeting your Canonist.
Cast Snapcaster, targeting Swords.
Block with Snapcaster.
Swords, targeting your Knight.

Zero damage what?

Fine, you got me. Rule of Law.

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Originally Posted by rukcus

Ethersworn Canonist.

Two spells what?

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Ooze is so insane against Snapcasters. Any GSZ deck or green deck should be packing 1-2 of these creatures in the Snapcaster era. You know what's also good against Snapcaster? Stifle/Daze/Pierce/Snare. I.e. Snapcaster shines in the lategame where you have a lot of mana, but if you Daze/Pierce the snapped spell, you are really losing out to a 2/1 body, which is not that impressive in some situations.

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Originally Posted by majikal

Can something like Goblins compete at that point? I don't think it can unless it does something to deal with 8 Swords to Plowshares/Lightning Bolt/whatever in every maindeck.

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I think Brian Thomas played Mogg Fanatics and Goblin Sharpshooter to a Top Four finish at the most recent NELC, from what I saw from his list. While those aren't the most conventional choices, they are insanely good against Grim Lavamancer, Delver, Snapcaster, and non-Threshed Mongeese (as blockers playing defense until a horde of other Goblins storm in for an alpha strike).

People don't read much into the fact that, while some of those creatures are more notorious for what they do aside from attacking, they're still an offensive threat in a lot of those decks and eat life totals low enough where Lightning Bolt (paired with Snapcaster Mage) becomes incredibly relevant, so killing what creatures the said player does run helps in that respect.

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Originally Posted by rukcus

Fine, you got me. Rule of Law.

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And now you're running a clunky Enchantment instead of a creature who can attack and costs less.

Which is kind of the point. The reason people don't run Chains to stop Brainstorm is that it's not good enough and limits your choices. Same with Rule of Law.

That's kind of the issue. The answers to Brainstorm or Snapcaster are not good enough to play because it's just better to run Brainstorm or Snapcaster. Rule of Law is pretty terrible against non Snapcaster decks, but Snapcaster is almost never bad. Same with Chains/Brainstorm.

I don't know what the solution is, but I don't think that it is narrow, clunky cards.

Mogg Fanatic actually sounds very solid ATM. It kills Delver, Lavamancer, Hierarch, Mother of Runes, Dark Confidant.

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Originally Posted by CorpT

And now you're running a clunky Enchantment instead of a creature who can attack and costs less.

Which is kind of the point. The reason people don't run Chains to stop Brainstorm is that it's not good enough and limits your choices. Same with Rule of Law.

That's kind of the issue. The answers to Brainstorm or Snapcaster are not good enough to play because it's just better to run Brainstorm or Snapcaster. Rule of Law is pretty terrible against non Snapcaster decks, but Snapcaster is almost never bad. Same with Chains/Brainstorm.

I don't know what the solution is, but I don't think that it is narrow, clunky cards.

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Then you can upgrade with Arcane Laboratory so it pitches to Force of Will... (I jest)

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

Then you can upgrade with Arcane Laboratory so it pitches to Force of Will... (I jest)

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LOL

See, Blue always wins? ;)

It reminds me of the people who say "Propaganda, isn't that the Blue Ghostly Prison?" Grrrrr.

I'd say being non-Blue is better since it's less vulnerable to REB... but that side-skirts the issue that Blue > non-Blue.

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Originally Posted by alderon666

Mogg Fanatic actually sounds very solid ATM. It kills Delver, Lavamancer, Hierarch, Mother of Runes, Dark Confidant.

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In gobbos? Maybe. I can't imagine playing MF in any other deck when Punishing Fire, Grim Lavamancer, Lightning Bolt, Fire/Ice, and the rest of the played removal of the format deals with those threats as well. They all have the added bonus of actually killing an Insectile Abberration once it's flipped.

What kind of world do we live in when Mogg Fanatic becomes part of the conversation on how to beat blue decks? :eyebrow:

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Originally Posted by alderon666

Mogg Fanatic actually sounds very solid ATM. It kills Delver, Lavamancer, Hierarch, Mother of Runes, Dark Confidant.

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Fanatic post M10 rules is just so sad... else i'd be playing it everywhere. Not being able to 2-for-1 made the card just so incredibly worse :(

WotC reprint a fanatic with first strike plz.

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Originally Posted by majikal

I agree. Snapcaster Mage is what's warping the meta at the moment. It has this weird effect where it makes sense to play graveyard hate to keep them from gaining advantage with the little fucker, only the decks that play him punish you for playing narrow cards like graveyard hate, so doing so only puts you in a worse position. But then you run into the problem of them having access to 8 of everything in their deck, at instant speed, with the ability to attack you with it afterwards.

So what do you do about it? Banning Brainstorm won't do any good. Snapcaster Mage will still break the game wide open, and Thresh decks won't even blink at the banning. Combo, on the other hand, will be significantly weakened, along with control.

Can something like Goblins compete at that point? I don't think it can unless it does something to deal with 8 Swords to Plowshares/Lightning Bolt/whatever in every maindeck.

Honestly, when everything is said and done, I think banning Brainstorm would actually just further polarize the format into Snapcaster Mage decks vs. Hate decks

Maybe we'll get a solution in the new Planechase product next summer. It's supposed to have more new eternal-legal cards in it, which I guess is going to be commonplace from now on.

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Time to break out Catalyst Stone!

Or Ground Seal; bonus points for shutting down 5/9ths of Reanimator's reanimation, and you know, Cantripping.

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Originally Posted by rukcus

Or Yixlid Jailer...

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Snappy trumps Jailer

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Originally Posted by menace13

Snappy trumps Jailer

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Ninja edits man.

The problem with calling for a ban on Snapcaster is that it almost certainly won't happen. When there's a creature and a spell that work in tandem to do something oppressive, Wizards has opted to ban the spell in most cases. So we could potentially be seeing a format with no Brainstorm but still Snappy.

However, I think Snappy specifically, and blue in general, gets worse with a BS ban. Snapcaster loses the ability to draw cards on the opponent's turn for cheap, leaving removal and Spell Snare/Pierce as your main targets. That's not nearly as exciting and will likely reduce the number of Snapcasters in non-control decks.

And no, I don't think Snapcaster, flashback Ponder or Preordain is good enough. It's certainly an option, but a 2/1 with some filtering for three on your turn just seems a lot worse.