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@Chatto. That is what I meant about Nether Void. To spend 100+ on a card that can't even protect a Lilianalock seems suboptimal. I had Liliana Abrup Decayd Twice, just against Jund. And we all know how much Abrupt Decay and Shaman are around these days.
Agreed, and right now MBP just feels right :smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore
Aah ok, I misunderstood you :smile: But don't call Nether Void suboptimal though: it can shut your opponent's deck down (it has for me on numerous occasions). Most decks have a low mana-curve and ditto mana-base. Smallpox, Pox, Sinkhole, Wasteland and the occasional hit with Hymn can really lower the amount of lands being played. We on the other hand play more land (Right now I play 25, but I like to go to 26), so are able to adapt. Attacking from all angles is huge and backed up with a Nether Void is killing: no 'free' Fow, no more cantripping for one mana (Ponder, Brainstorm etc), no more LED (if you are lucky), no more Show and Tell. It can land on your second turn using Dark Ritual, and stall the game long enough for you to get a better boardposition. While your opponent struggles to get some boardposition you just play iBlood, Pox-effects, Sinkhole etc. People really get frustrated when they can't get something on the field :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by beez
I had some sweet plays like this:
T1: land, Innocent Blood/ IoK
T2: land, Hymn
T3: land, IoK (to look if the coast was clear), Dark Ritual into Nether Void.
T4: land, STD for the sweet sensation of manipulating your deck in order to stay on top of the game
Granted, this one was one of my sweetest memories, but there are so much more
Nether Void really really isn't a supoptimal card, but it is a damn expensive one. I'll give you that :laugh:
I thought you might be interested in my thinking at present.
I often read, and reread, Carsten Kotters articles on legacy and try improve my deck after the insights I get.
As you know currently I go for Big Dudes Pox [BDP]
. I wanted to go my own way. While not intended this have advantages in the current Meta. The high mana cost make the creatures impossible to Decay, for example, and the high toughness make them difficult to handle for decks like Delver and Burn. This is the concept Carsten call 'blanking'. Taking this further, by not running 1cc spells except Dark Ritual, I can also blank my own chalices. This mean I have no problems setting them to counter Swords to Plowshares, SDT, Delver, brainstorm etc. to name just a few cards common legacy cards...
Regrettably this is yet theory only. I have been ill and have had no time to test my chalices in a tourney. Unless something unexpected turn up I well try play next Tuesday, however.
Carstens latest article is again of high quality and inspirational. So what do you say? Time to find the pox shell?
For the more traditional Pox it appears the shell nowadays is:
Liliana of the veil
Smallpox
Hymn to Tourach
Wasteland
sinkhole
If you happen not to run any of these it is mainly because of cost.
What id like to discuss is this shell, how it works, strengths, weaknesses and obvious ways to improve it.
i think you can afford to skip on the sinkholes if you are playing multiple big poxes or if your build is more focused on disacrd..
As I see it there are two kinds of Pox shells:
1. Shell of mana-denial,
2. Shell of heavy discard.
I'm not sure how those shells would look like, for there are cards that fit both shells and I almost always go for the first one.
I give you an example for the first shell using the most common cards:
6-8 discard: Hymn, IoK, Thoughseize, Duress.
8-12 mana-denial: Wasteland, Ghost Quarter, Sinkhole, Smallpox.
4-8 lock pieces: Liliana of the Veil, Crucible of Worlds, Nether Void.
6-8 wincons: Cursed Scroll, Mishra's Factory, creatures (mostly Nether Spirit)
4 creature-removal: Innocent Blood, Spinning Darkness
x other cards: you name it, I would say Sensei's Divining Top
Not sure how a heavy discard shell would like, but I would like to think something with The Rack.
If you haven't read the article yet, here is the link:
http://www.starcitygames.com/article...hell-Game.html
Using Carstens explanationAndQuote:
A shell, in the way I use the term, is a group of cards commonly played together that shape the strategic focus and tactical game of any deck they're played in. They either strongly influence how a deck plays out or give it a particular set of synergistic options.
Quote:
What all of them share is that we're talking about groups of cards here, not particular singletons, and that their presence strongly shapes a deck's gameplay.
@chatto,YES and that is THOSE that make up the shell. LD or HD are just variants of the POX concept created by adding cards to the core/shell.Quote:
there are cards that fit both shells
At least that is how I understand it. One could define the 'shell' as the group of cards you would expect to see in most of the decks of a particular type. For example, a Pox deck with no Smallpox is no Pox deck, i think we can agree on that. (Unless it run big pox instead:))
I've read the article and fair enough:
4 Waste
4 Hymn
4 Liliana
4 Smallpox
4 Mishra's Factory
I think those cards are the basic shell for Pox. Without those cards one could argue if it is indeed a Pox-deck. Then you could add the 'flexible slots', but still relevant for Pox:
3-4 Urborg
3-4 1cc discard
0-4 Sinkhole
0-4 Innocent Blood
Something like this? Note that I didn't include Sinkhole to the list of 'basic shell of Pox'. There was a time you choose either to run Hymn or Sinkhole, if I'm not mistaken.
Still, I think it is hard NOT to choose before making up a shell for Pox. I mean, sure, LD and discard have similar cards but they don't run the same (really hard to explain)
I have to run, but will come back on this subject.
Mishras are nice, very good cards, but they seem more of a matter of taste than neccessity; "what win cons do I want to run? Mishras, Nether Spirits, ghasts, Idols, or Racks?" (BTW, any of those cards that hit play is a give away for what type of deck you play: Pox. Big deal:smile:)
Sink Holes, otoh, seem more crucial. If you have them, you will include them in the deck for sure. They also complement the other LD by not being sac effects. (BTW. likewise it would be nice to have a good targeted creature kill to increase the efficiency of the sacrifice effects of the poxes.)
This above is just my opinion though and I don't want to suppress the community with my ego:wink:. For me the purpose of this discusion is to cut down to something basic that can be analysed and improved. Less is More.
That done one can branch out it different directions.
Easily solved! One cut down the cards included in the shell even more. Actually doing this has an interesting effect:Quote:
Still, I think it is hard NOT to choose before making up a shell for Pox. I mean, sure, LD and discard have similar cards but they don't run the same (really hard to explain)
Wasteland
Liliana
Smallpox
Looks almost too basic, right? On the other hand we can add a new card to the list: Urborg, tomb of yawgmoth!!!
Why? Because POX generally play with at least one set of non-basic lands (Wasteland) but often more. Typically one Bojuka bog, Mishras and maybe a Pit. So, weird as it seems, the shell could actually be described like this:
Wasteland
Liliana of the veil
Smallpox
Urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
Sinkhole and Hymn may not both always be included at the same time, so I removed them both and classify them as adjuncts.
(Taking cue from you)
BTW. I feel Hymn is played more but possibly only because of difference in rarity.
Yeah, to me a Pox shell would be anything that uses Smallpox with either Big Pox and/or Liliana. There are decks that don't use Liliana, but do Big Pox, like Hardcore's list and any number use Liliana but no Big Pox. Discard Pox may dispense with the Wastelands and Sinkholes. Some builds may go with a more stable mono black mana base. Loam Pox may not use as many hymns and sinkholes
But I think in general a Pox shell would be:
4 Smallpox
4 Liliana
1 Nether Spirit
With the main adjuncts being
1-4 Big Pox
Hymn
Sinkhole
Wasteland
Mishras
Urborg
Cursed Scroll
And the rest of the main pool
Inquisition
Dark Ritual
Innocent Blood
And the larger pool of everything from Funeral Charm and Trinisphere to Tainted Aether, Tombstalker and Life from the Loam and the old school power cards The Abyss and Nether Void.
Actually, NetherVoid and Abyss and maybe Tabernacle are really primary adjuncts too, they are just less commonly found in the larger player pool, as we know.
I would have assumed the core shell is:
4 1cc discard (slot debatable)
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Wasteland
basic swamps
I suppose Sinkhole is sometimes left out, but I took that to be a budget choice more than a deck functionality choice. Sinkhole is so core to the resource denial strategy. Does anyone just leave Sinkhole out because there are too many 2cc spells and not because of card availability issues?
I think the critical mass of basic swamps are an important part of the deck as they leave you less vulnerable to manabase disruption, which is crucial when playing symmetric effects like Smallpox since you want the opponent to be affected worse than yourself.
I think the other slots (Innocent Blood, Spinning Darkness, Cursed Scroll, creatures, lock pieces) are flex and vary depending on meta and playstyle.
Almost the same list I mentioned a couple of post earlier :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
This is what Carsten write about the
As you see the shell is the primary thing, and the smaller the better. In this case four cards only but even less with three in the blue cantrip shell.Quote:
The Death and Decay Shell
Deathrite shaman
Dark Confidant
Thoughtseize
Abrupt Decay
This newcomer has rapidly become the backbone of a ton of different fair decks ever since Return to Ravnica was released. What we have here is a base black removal and disruption package that delivers a lot of raw power while covering a lot of different bases as far as interactivity is concerned. Just this shell alone not only gives you mana acceleration, extremely flexible removal for almost any threat you're likely to face, and the ability to interact just about anywhere with discard and graveyard hate but also a lot of raw power in the long game with raw card advantage and Deathrite Shaman's ability to turn used cards into faux Drain Lifes.
Given these strengths, it shouldn't be surprising that this shell has been integrated into and given rise to a large number of strategies. I think the Legacy community even now hasn't finished exploring the potential of this new shell.
This is not to say the other cards are unimportant rather that they are discused in another part of the deck building process. Shell is the heart, the engine. Or like modern car building: a plattform for many brands.
Pox decks is about maximising the black strength in disruption spells:
- Urborg let you play non-basic lands that help your gameplan.
- Liliana gives structure to the deck because of it's versatility
- Wasteland kill the lands your opponent do not want to sacrifice to pox effects.
- Smallpox is perhaps the most disruptive card in the game.
What's up guys!
I've been having a great experience playing with this deck. I was wondering if I could get some feedback specifically for sideboarding. There's 2 slightly different meta games where I get to play. Places locally seem to be more budget type decks (burn, affinity, dredge, elves, goblins, death/taxes, etc), whereas online programs like Workstation/Cockatrice seems to be more with the flavor of the week from SCG events with no budget restrictions what so ever (Sneak/Show, Reanimator, Deathblade, RUG, etc).
Here's the list I've been playing so far. I'm really digging the Entomb that allows me to pull out my win con with Nether Spirit, Darkblast for board control or Raven's Crime after a few lucky back to back Sinkhole/Wastelands.
Let me know what you guys think of how I can improve the sideboard so it's more balanced.
Main Deck:
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Nether Spirit
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Cursed Scroll
4 Dark Ritual
1 Darkblast
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Entomb
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Innocent Blood
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Raven's Crime
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
1 The Rack
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Buried Ruin
4 Mishra's Factory
11 Swamp
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
Sideboard:
1 Duress
1 Unmask
1 Dystopia
3 Engineered Plague
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Extirpate
2 Leyline of the Void
2 Pithing Needle
1 Perish
1 Zuran Orb
http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k1...ps6008ed64.jpg
@Polish Tamales
both your sideboard and your main deck are full of 1-ofs. While your entomb + buried ruin ans look like a decent tutor engine, to do so you need two of the cards that you have 1-of on the deck. This theoretic "versatility" sacrifices consistency.
For your sideboard, I would reccomend something like:
3 duress
3 extirpate
2/3 syphon life
2/3 perish
1/2 dystopia
I would also reccomend dakmor salvage to make the best of your raven's crime and syphon life.
You can take the miser entomb away and maybe 1-2 lands in order to add more crucible/cursed scroll/etc, since you'll probably only need 17 black sources and you already have 4 urborg to make your mishras and wastelands generate black mana.
Pox strategy must be linear and redundant because it is powerful in its disruption but lacks card selection.
Still, entomb is nice, and black can do a lot with it. I'd say; go 110% with Entomb, or not at all.
(if you do choose go the entomb route do not forget to have one Cabal Therapy in the deck.)
Also, consider if you need dark rituals. Unless you face fast combo you should do fine without.
Actually the Ruins + crucible combo is not bad. Unless the opponent play graveyard hate in main it will be hard to get rid of them. I think it is worth exploring this build direction, going for an artifact heavy pox. Note that dredge effect act as a sort of random tutor effect to supplement Entomb. Get a second darkblast and the dakmor salvage.
That's taking the deck to a totally different direction and trying to make it do what BG loam pox does better. The deck will durdle and give plenty recovery time for the opponent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore
I'm not saying that BG pox is better than monoB and that's not the point. I'm saying that this is the kind of recursion that doesn't help to cover the deck's weak spots, thus you are dilluting the main strategy without adding resilience.
Even if you go with the entomb plan, look at the targets:
dakmor salvage
raven's crime
syphon life
worm harvest
nether spirit
Monoblack Pox simply does not need it, and trusting on graveyard tutor in a meta filled with deathrite shamans doesn't look very promissing.
I've been liking this build recently. It has it's issues, but it is pretty good.
Pox
1 Nether Spirit
1 Bloodghast
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Cursed Scroll
2 Pox
4 Smallpox
4 Lilliana Of The Veil
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Inquisition Of Kozeliek
4 Innocent Blood
4 Sinkhole
4 Dark Ritual
4 Wasteland
2 Cabal Pit
2 Bojuka Bog
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
8 Swamp
2 ratchet bomb
2 pithing Needle
3 Extripate
1 surgical extraction
3 trinisphere
1 infest
2 perish
1 dystopia
It is hard not to dip into the graveyard a bit, as it is a great means of breaking Pox symmetry, but I try not to get too burned by graveyard hate. Crucible could be considered' win more' but if I've established control, Top, Crucible , Scroll and Liliana help keep it. And make no mistake, this mono black Pox deck is a control deck.
Mainly I need to work on my sideboard choices for certain mathups. Sometimes I consider dropping the Rituals, but when they work, they really work for a disruptive start or a late scroll activation.
I liked it.Quote:
Originally Posted by beez
If you want to drop rituals and keep acceleration, at 24 lands I could suggest mox diamond. It doesn't die to pox and has some synnergy with crucible, and if your opponent tries to abrupt decay it (duh) it won't matter a lot due to your land count.
But then again, 3 mana on turn 1 at the expense of 1 card seems more appealing than 2 mana on turn 2 at the expense of 2...