Hum, I really like the charm... call me crazy but would cut Duress before the Charm. I would also keep all 4 shades. But Jitte is a good idea (or is SOFI better?)
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Hum, I really like the charm... call me crazy but would cut Duress before the Charm. I would also keep all 4 shades. But Jitte is a good idea (or is SOFI better?)
Hm... the idea of Jitte is quite interesting. I however am not sold on it. I don't think this deck has enough threats for Jitte to make a HUGE difference in this deck. Yes it is always nice to have when a creature is riding it FTW, but in this type of deck with such a low threat count, I don't feel that Jitte has a spot in this deck. Perhaps I am wrong, but I am just making this analysis based of what I know about this deck and how it runs.
This deck can't support Jitte, period. There's between 11-14 creatures (depending on builds), and none of them survive any of the typical removal we see, all of which are instant speed. Wasting 2 mana to cast a dead card until it has a creature to equip doesn't follow the flow of this deck at all, it doesn't disrupt, and it doesn't remove. It needs a creature to survive long enough to swing, and when it runs out of counters, it needs it to happen again. This is really just coming down to being a bad and overcosted Cursed Scroll, and at best, an Enormous Growth.
Jitte is not worth it-it's too slow. We really need a faster clock-I suggested Rotting Giant, it worked OK for me @ the Gencon Prelims, but not enough to warrant playing the deck @ the Championships.
Nantuko Shade is fine as a clock-setter, because the resource denial will keep them from establishing sufficient resistance even to our Hyppies and Bobs. Jitte is far too slow for Deadguy, so is SoFI, and Rotting Giant serves no purpose other than to take up a slot that can be filled by a creature that does something besides randomly die to an empty graveyard.
Agreed, do NOT cut Nantuko Shade. That would be a huge mistake. I think that the creature base is solid as is, and there isn't any reason to switch it around. The only time I would tinker around with the creatures would be if I were to add more threats, but those threats would have to be pretty good to earn a slot in the deck.
I heven't been horribly impressed with jitte, mostly because I always seem to have better things to do with my mana. I've cut 1 jitte, leaving the other one in for the sake of randomness and the games it can win on it's own for a 4th shade. I really like this configuration, but I think it's more the wretches than the jitte at this point.
Yeah, running single Jitte was something I've always wanted to do with this deck.
More importantly though, this deck is getting a lot of bad hype, on account of all the articles saying that it tests poorly, and the lack of significant results since Pikula's run.
If the status quo remains, the days of this decks presence in the Metagame forum are numbered. If we want it to get more respect, we either need to...
A.) Post any solid organized testing results that we have that honestly assess this decks matchups in the current metagame.
B.) If the results are poor, find a way to innovate and improve the deck. A lone Jitte might be a start. Another is to try and learn from the repeated success of Red Death.
As I mentioned before, the only differences between this deck and Red Death are...
4 Vindicate
4 Dark Confidant
2 Gerrard's Verdict
2 Engineered Plague
2 Cursed Scroll
1 Swamp
vs.
4 Negator
4 Rotting Giant/Wretched Anurid
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
I'm by no means saying that the decks are strategically similar.
But there's no denying the fact the disruption base is near identical, the only difference is in how the two decks go about winning the game once the disruption has had it's toll.
Deadguy goes for a slow controllish type game that tries to maintain the initial card advantage with board control elements.
Red Death goes for the throat and hopes to finish of the opponent by the time they recover from the initial onslaught of disruption.
Red Death has had continued success from multiple players in the past two months, Deadguy hasn't had too much success in the past six months.
So there likely is something to Red Death's strategy. The problem with Red however is that it offers nothing that even compares to the incredible synergy and versatility that Vindicate has with the rest of the deck. It can supplement the land destruction strategy, or can serve as removal. In my experience, it by itself justifies the White splash.
I've already suggested that this deck try running 4 Negators for a fast win and 3 Swords so that it has 7 removal pieces just like Red Death to supplement the Negators. It's been discussed so I wont go down the route again.
But I do think comparing and contrasting the two decks and learning from each is a very key element in putting this deck back on top. I would love to hear your guy's feedback on this issue.
P.S. As for removal, I really don't like Charm just because as far as removal is concerned, it's pretty crappy IMO. It can kill lackey, whoppie, and that's really about it. And removal is really the function that the card does the best. The discard is only good if they have an empty hand, and in that situation, you're usually already winning. And the swampwalk is near worthless IMO.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuckerPunch
QFT. Funeral Charm is terrible in my opinion. It is quite true that it's only GOOD and relevant removal is the ability to get rid of a turn one Lackey. I would much rather run a threat in place of Funeral Charm. I don't even see why this card was put into any Deadguy builds to begin with. Whoever decided this was a good card to throw in was wrong in my opinion. The build is already pretty tight, and with Vindicate, STP, and Cursed Scroll, there is a decent way to get rid of creatures you don't like. Not to mention Funeral Charm only dishes away Lackey, not much else. If you were to make changes to this deck, the only change I would advise would be to up the threat count.
QFT.Quote:
Originally Posted by NANTUKO_SHADY
Which is why I upped the fetchlands and added Rotting Giant. While I wasn't as happy with him as I could be with something else, he definitely helped in the matchups where graveyards didn't matter(anything but Thresh really). In a Thresh heavy meta, I would say run Withered Wretch for sure.
This might sound SERIOUSLY out in left field, but has anyone attempted to test Putrid Warrior? A 2/2 for W/B with the ability to either gain life or make life loss seems to be a pretty decent hit, especially when multiples attack. It does require both colors, which makes for a bit less of a chance to cast when compared to any other creature we have, but it seems that it might help speed the clock just enough. Also the ability to gain life (albeit offsetting the damage to your opponent by 1), seems to possibly be a help for late game to keep the life from dying out too quickly. I'm not even 75% sure of testing it, but it did seem like a plausable option.
I don't like him (and it's not cause of the flavour ;) ). The lifegain declares him to a 1/2 attacker, that can easily be blocked. If he would be somewhat like Goblin Leggionaire, then maybe yes.
But what does he do? There is nearly no match-up in which Dead Guy is the Aggro-Deck. Even against Combo you are more of a Control Deck by disrupting them.
All Creatures in this Deck have usefull abilities, but the Warrior doesn't, because he doesn't do anything, maybe except for the Solidarity matchup. But still there are better cards. You can't want to play him 2nd Turn - except if you started with Ritual, Duress, Hymn 1st turn - and he can attack probably turn 4 then. Little late, isn't it?
I dunno, but I don't see where he helps out in any matchup (except for blocking against aggro, where he's not better than Phyrexian Warbeast, which blocks and lives).
Welcome to The Source! Please refer to the LMF Rules, specifically the part about proper grammar and spelling. This part of the site is moderated much more strictly than the rest of the site. ~ Nightmare
Yeah, the main thing that keeps Putrid Warrior from being good is that he's a format where most every creature has 2 power atleast.
If I wanted to add threats I would add either....
Negator
Rotting Giant
or Jotun Grunt - better against Thres than Withered Wretch IMO.
The card can also be used for instant discard or in some rare occasion give swampwalk to a shade or hippie for finishing purpose.Quote:
Originally Posted by NANTUKO_SHADY
I do not have a complete report but the guy who won the Canadian Legacy Championship played BW Confidant with charm instead of duress (I am currently testing a 3/3/3 split between charm/duress/STP). I know he killed goblins all day...
I'm sorry for Off-Topic, but:
My native language is not english. And I do not really understand what your problem is about. My english doesn't seem too bad, but obviously I'm not allowed to discuss here, cause I make some mistakes.
Whatever, maybe I better keep reading here, than trying to say sth.
I don't want any problems with you (or anyone else) but this seems quite arrogant to me.
@Topic:
Negator might be a good help against Solidarity, IGGY and Salvager's Game, that's why I keep him in the Sideboard. But MD he is not a good decission (imo), because legacy is an aggro-format.
So far,
Oh don't worry about the mods. One of them is a bitter old man, who teaches english for a living. So you can see why he has such a stick up his you-know-where when it comes to spelling and grammer. And all the other mods obviously just try to emulate him. But just try the best you can and you'll be fine. You are more than welcome to post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Summoner
My biggest problem with Negator (especially against decks such as Iggy Pop and Solidarity)......their goldfish is faster than your fastest clock. You get a turn 1 Swamp->Dark Rit->Negator, they have 4 turns. They KILL before 4 turns. This also has given them ample opportunity to get their hands sculpted as they wish, because best case scenario now, your hand has Swamp, Dark Rit, and two Hymns to back him up, and keep them off a solid 7 cards for the next few turns. Very unlikely.
On top of that issue, both decks pack maindeck answers to a potential threat. While Iggy is still mixing it up with between 1-2 in the maindeck, it has multiple ways to search for it. Solidarity can just as easily play out their game without the Cunning Wish for a draw spell using Brain Freeze and just waiting for your draw phase, and use it to get the Negator bounced during combat that would be lethal. Seeing this happen numerous times with my Shade, I know it's very, very likely to happen with a 5/5 that keeps your mana free.
What it boils down to is: You will NOT race the top 2 combo slots. Ever. In 50+ games of playtesting against both decks, I was the slow player, and it's much easier against Iggy than it is Solidarity, due mostly to Withered Wretch and destroying their manabase with efficient 1-1 card hits, while swinging for 2-4 a turn with Scroll, Wretch, Hippie, and Confidant.
I am still thinking about Grunt. My issue is that with what we've got right now, why is it none of our creatures (especially access to white), don't have protection abilities? We have creatures that all go Plowing, typically die to Bolt (Negator especially sucks for this aspect, poor guy), or are taken out by the simplest of removal, which is an abundance. Is there anything that at the very least can dodge StP, or survive burn/targeted removal that isn't something dumb like a White/Black knight variant?
Wait. So you're actually arguing that swinging for 2-3 a turn is fast enough to beat combo, but somehow, swinging for 5 isn't?Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathwingZERO
I play 3-4 Negators in my side everytime I play this deck. I always side them in against sol and iggy, and I'm always glad that I do.
Note, I've never suggesting cutting disruption slots for negator. Your scenario of typically having 2-3 discard/disruption spells in your opening hand is right. (And when it's not, you always should mulligan). How this works out in the actual game however, you're wrong about. In the actual game, those two or so disruption spells, plus maybe on avg on one more you draw in the first few turns slows them down to the point that an early Negator is fast enough to win the game 90% of the time. But in that same scenario, all your other clocks that do 2-3 damage a turn, I've many times found too slow because even though you've successfully disrupted them, they give them such a slow clock that they have a chance to recover.
But by focusing on Negator, you've missed the entire point of my post. I'm not saying this deck should run Negator. All I'm saying is that this deck should borrow some insight for Red Death's success. Interpret however you want.
I've begun to run Negator main, Cursed Scroll main, and Delerium Skeins...which oddly enough isn't as bad as I thought. More coverage to come.
Quote:
Originally Posted by laststepdown
I'm not sold on Negator, especially when played MD. The card seems too situational, and it is a dead card in many matchups. It's prime uses are against control and combo decks. And like DeathWingZero said, Negator is just too damn slow to race combo. I don't see Negator in this deck at all, even in the sideboard.