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I'm playing the deck again within a couple of weeks and was considering using some slots in the SB for graveyard hate but...
which one would you use, guys? Leylines or Extirpates? Do Faerie macabre or offalsnout deserve any slot?
I've added 4 goyfs t the deck, so i'm less afraid of opp's extirpates than before, anyway extirpate seems being nice, but leylines are so painful for them...
I use extirpates in my board over leyline. There are a couple reasons for this. Mainly, leyline is essentially useless unless it is in your opening hand. Since this deck doesn't mulligan too well, trying to mull into leyline is a deathwish. Hardcasting leyline is another problem. This deck will have a hard time getting BB on turn 4, like it or not. So, if you are going to hard cast it, we're talking about turn 5-7. By this time you will have already lost against many of the decks you want leyline against (aggro loam, survival, ichorid, combo, other loam decks, thresh). Decks like loam, survival, and ichorid can also get rid of leyline very easily, as leyline is a common problem for them.
Extirpate has that unexpected quality that allows it to hit things that your opponent doesnt expect to be hit. With leyline, they can simply play around it. Extirpate also can come in against control decks, hitting force of will, counterspell, StP. Extirpate and therapy are a sick combination as well.
i use leyline of the void but only side it in versus dredge and RBG Loam for the most part. Id rather play a different card but i found the Loam matchup very hard without it. You really want to have graveyard disruption before the game begins, and you have it much later than turn 3, it doesn't even matter. Thats why i mulligan into leyline or keep a turn 3 win hand (unless i have an unusual keepable hand). The reason i can see no alternative to leyline at the present is that the main function of leyline is to slow the deck down, if you do so, then you can combo off. Versus RGB Loam, leyline is the best because it counteracts countryside crusher, and tarmogoyf. CC is just a 3/3 and tarmogoyf doesnt get that big, and you can control how big he becomes. Also, with leyline, without access to lftl the deck can run out of gas very quickly. This was the main reason I play leyline, you draw it, you win... even if they deal with it, you have a lot of time. tormod;s crypt and extirpate did nothing for me because they did not stop the big creatures beating me down and they still had the option of devastating dreams for 4 and keeping their guy. Against Dredge, i don't see how you can say leyline of the void is bad because they are prepared for it... The reason that they are prepared for it is that it crushes them, they can't do anything until they draw chain of vapor or ray of revelation. Other options like crypt are not long lasting and they more cards against (needle) and extirpate is not a autowin because you may have extirpated a card like bridge from below, but they still can beat you down pretty handily, especially on the back of disruption via cabal therapy. I don't know if you ever did this, but going first against dredge with leyline of the void and a discard spell is game over (well technically they could have chain of vapor off the top). Keep in mind that metas vary and a certain card may be better for your meta but leyline is far superior in mine.
on a different note, i am playing imperial aluren and have living wish, vs dreadstill i am trying a sideboarded maze of ith. they do not have many creatures and this card can be a pain. wasteland is very good versus it though and i already have uktabi orangutan in the side. can anyone clarify the difference between nought decks and thresh, is just one card, nimble mongoose, and a few more trickbind? Not many people play it in my area saying it is a bad deck and they rather vomit than play it, but that makes it hard to test.
The Maze of Ith sounds good, I think I do not use properly my SB for my living wishes, but most of the time I'm only getting the 4th Recruiter, sometimes a Witness and the least, a Boneshredder... I should include a Maze, but I feel my slots are really precious right now:
1 Imperial Recruiter
1 Eternal Witness
1 Boneshredder
1 Maze of Ith (I copy your idea, sorry :P)
1 More Wish targets?
4 Extirpate (I don't expect many Aggro loams and maybe 1-2 Dredge)
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Divert (funny thoughtseizes and therapies)
Sometimes I feel the SB Witness is somehow useless, except if you are fighting some nasty war and need to reuse cards....
What about painters? Can Aluren side something in to stop them or gain some time?
play a uktabi orangutan or viridian shaman in the board... it can be wished for and if you know they are siding in needles you can put it in the mainboard g2 and g3 so you can still combo off. Is divert really that good? I never even considered putting that in, because i am more concerned of them playing counterbalance or having krosan grip, i play 7 discard spells main (4 thoughtseize, 3 duress) so you can take their discard if necessary going first and they would be able to make you discard anyway going second.
These are some of my wish targets:
Stern Proctor
Uktabi Orangutan
Vexing Shusher
Maze of Ith
City Of Traitors
Boneshredder
Eternal Witness
Imperial Recruiter
I sideboard these cards a lot in certain matchups where the card is good versus a deck ,but i would not wish for it.
I have tried pernicious deeds in the past and have been dissatisfied with them. They would usually get stifled or be too slow, or it would not be synergistic with the rest of the cards and I would lose because I was not focusing on comboing off.
How do you deal with counterbalance and them having the stifle for deed? Stifle is already good versus you because they can stifle imperial recruiter.
Ive been searching for a sideboard card that deals with the these cards, Krosan Grip , Stifle, Force of Will, Counterbalance. I have been playing Vexing Shusher, but they kill it or have a hand of grips and stifles. What do you think of sideboarding in the abyss versus thresh? they have to deal with it sometime or you can sit there all day and sculpt the perfect hand.
I have exchanged my viridian shaman for a harmonic sliver.
I never played the shaman pre-aluren because I always had somethign better to play (or more necessary, i.e: intuition) so I would always use it post-aluren, and then...if it doesn't need to be played using mana, why not using sliver, which is superior given these conditions?
Maze of Ith looks like unexpected tech against dreadnoughts, still have to test it, and the othe cards you mention, to be honest, I just get the recruiter most of the time.
Do you play without Fows? There was some discussion about them and I stand as pro-fow, I recommend you to use them (3x). This is the best way of dealing with many things that duresses and therapies cannot. Anyway Krosan Grip must be taken out with therapies. I always name it, because their Fows can be fought and swords are useless when going off (except when they have 2 and are clever).
Counterbalance + SDT is a real pain in the *ss! But most of the time they will free counter your therapies, brainstorms and tarmogoyfs, so you need to focus on dropping aluren with Fow in hand (if you don't pack fows... ¿?), it works for me, as they usually do not have the 4cc there and have to use their fow...
Stifle is really dangerous since we need all our mana and they love to ruin our fetchlands; if they also use them on our recruiters it's hard to go off, but you only need to gather 2 or more combo pieces: more recruiters or stalkers just to bounce and repeat process.
The shusher looks like another swords to plowshares target, but hey! let them waste their swords there, then your goyfs can do the job!
Against ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh I would side in 4 leylines and maybe some duresses. Deeds would clean the way, but the graveyard is, IMHO, the way to deal with it.
Maybe our metas and builds are rather different, I'm afraid I cannot help too much...
i can resolve Aluren pretty easily but i cant win after that because cavern harpy costs 2 mana. Counterbalance counters two mana spells. It might sound counterintuitive, but has anyone tried choke versus thresh? that card they can not deal with and your lands can basically untap anyway except trops and islands.
The Abyss can't stop Nimble Mongoose, that's its major problem.
IMHO Krosan Grip, Force of Will and Stifle are easy to deal with, just Cabal Therapy is needed and you run Thoughtseize as well. Counterbalance protects them all from discard spells, so the solution must be something against Counterbalance. As Toad pointed out, Engineered Explosives looks like one of the best answers against it. I like Reverent Silence as well, but it will hardly be useful against other decks.
What do you all think about Wheel of sun and moon as a sideboard option?
It can stop annoying Extirpates if you target yourself and it stops dredge decks, as well as dilute ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh and aggro loam. The problem is that it does not begin in play as leyline does, and also can be countered/destroyed, plus it would be put into play by second turn...or later.
Wheel of sun and moon is actually not a bad idea. I would run wheel over leyline any day. However, i still like extirpate better because it comes unexpectedly, completely removes one piece of their deck, and has value in the control / combo MU.
Wheel of Sun and Moon can also be cast on yourself to protect against Extirpate and to really screw Brain Freeze over, not to mention it makes Jace Beleren a sad panda.
jace beleren! now i have the answer! I will never be sabotaged again!
If we are looking for two mana cards that do things, we can also look at ground seal seeing how it draws a card but does not stop as much things. I don't know about you, but I am usually already dead by my third turn against ichorid, not to mention they could have a ray in the graveyard by then, it does stop extirpates towards you as long as they haven't gotten aluren into the graveyard yet.
As we all agree in decking goyfs, extirpates are a little less annoying, but are still a problem if Aluren hits the grave. The first ideas I had were Research/Development, but it's only useful when your cards are removed, then I thought about including Extirpates too, but in this scenario you have to use baits first.
Is really E.E. better than Deeds? I see the point in the speed it gives, can be played 1 turn earlier or even set at zero, which will blow up tokens and chalices...
If you are that worried, there is Riftsweeper. At least it's a Grizzly Bear for when you don't need his services.Quote:
Originally Posted by Davetradint
To me, it's main strength is it's easier to stick through a Counterbalance, but having said that I usually run a mix of both.Quote:
Is really E.E. better than Deeds? I see the point in the speed it gives, can be played 1 turn earlier or even set at zero, which will blow up tokens and chalices...
Hi,
Played a small tournament today (17ppl), was 1s after 5 round swiss: 3-0-2, but got smacked in quarterfinals by dreadstill. My bad, I lost against countertop lock. Thinking about including shushers as someone suggested. There were a couple of countertops, and we don't see them very often in our little random meta. What do you all usually use to face these cards? Is the Shusher enough?
Shusher is sort of useless considering how Aluren is an "infinite" deck. What's wrong with Deed or EE?Quote:
Originally Posted by Davetradint
Besides, you should be able to go off at least partially (or in response to something when they are tapped out. Don't forget, you are the control, it's perfectly reasonable to slow-play it) since Dreadstill doesn't run many 3cc spells (and they need their Trinket Magi making it unlikely they will float them).
The main problem I see with such board sweepers is that they must be activated. Stifle ruins the day, so we should get rid of them first, but our only way is through Cabal Therapy. Counterbalance works pretty well against CMC 1.
I'm pretty busy these days, but I'll test Engineered Explosives, Krosan Grip, Vexing Shusher and Reverent Silence when possible. Dreadstill versions I see around here are U/G and U/G/r, the red splash is for Fire/Ice and Firespout.
Im playing krosan grip at the moment.It is good at random things like humility and everything... the only thing is that it can be dead sometimes. EE or deed is never really dead. right now i am going to be using grips because yea, EE and deed are good, but you have to resolve them and they usually have FOW and stifle to do that with. Grip is only countered with counterbalance and you can play around it because it is impossible to have a 3 drop on top at all times. Did i mention how good grip is versus landstill? noughts are practically useless so they have only goyfs. The only thing i do not like about grips is that they could be useless, but shrug, what can you do.
Does anyone have the current standard Recruiter and None Recruiter builds?
If you do, would you mind sharing? Posting here, or a PM would be appreciated.
Cheers!
There used to be a nice discussion here about Imperial VS non-imperial lists, anyway both decks work in a different way. I have also seen some kind of hybrid decks, using only a couple of Recruiters. Just take your time and read the whole thread, you can get much info! (At least, I did)
My list, played this very Sunday, 45 ppl, 8th after swiss (4-1-1), died to Burn.
Imperial Recruiter:
3x Polluted Delta
3x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
3x Tropical Island
1x Bayou
1x Taiga
4x Forest
2x Island
1x Swamp
4x Aluren
4x Brainstorm
3x Intuition
3x Cabal Therapy
3x Force of Will
3x Living Wish
1x Echoing Truth
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Imperial Recruiter
2x Dream Stalker
1x Cavern Harpy
1x Spike Feeder
2x Eternal Witness
1x Raven Familiar
1x Wall of Roots
1x Vexing Shusher
1x Stern Proctor
Sideboard:
1x Imperial Recruiter
1x Boneshredder
1x Man-o'-war
2x Vexing Shusher
1x Gilded Drake
3x Pernicious Deed
3x Extirpate
3x Krosan Grip
This sideboard somehow stinks, I expected tons of CBs and Dreadnoughts, moreover a shusher could be cut off and some kind of mana fixer/ random utility could be added.
I hope this helps you and we can "reanimate" the thread again!