[Deck] Belcher

I am entering this conversation on the grounds that I think adding ETW and Burning Wish can make this deck better specifically with regards to counterspells.

I hang my head in the lameness of quoting myself. I need a segue and I don't feel creative enough to come up with something new.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by myself

I did some testing. This is what I used.

Lands
1 Bayou
1 Taiga

Green
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Tinder Wall
4 Land Grant

Red
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Burning Wish
4 Seething Song
2 Empty the Warrens

Black
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Dark Ritual

Artifacts
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox

Side Board//
2 Shattering Spree
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
...other stuff I didn't use

Goldfishing went as follows in 42 games, drop the highest and lowest (so out of 40).

avg: 2.975
%1: 10.0
%2: 22.5
%3: 42.5
%4: 12.5
%5: 10.0
%6: 02.5

These numbers are not the turn you go off, they are kill turns assuming attacking with little 1/1's off of Warrens where applicable and includes opponent blocks and spot removal estimations.

Whatever. The real testing came against Gobs and Thresh.

Gobs - 5-0 matches including sbing. I won all 10 games. He had Needles, but he did not have Chalice.

UGR Thresh - 2-8 - matches including sb. He had Stifle which hurt a lot.

My initial estimates were not really accurate. FoW is still very hard to overcome at times. BUT, the Pithing Needle brought in by Gobs was no big deal and this deck does not kill itself.
Xantids should have been main. The deck can USUALLY go off on turn 1. That's way more than 50%. FoW makes that kinda moot, though.

Questions:

1. Beyond Xantids and Duress what else can we include to improve this?
2. This appears to be flat-out better than the old Belcher builds. Is there anything I am forgetting?

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In the 10 matches against Theshold my opponent made a poor decision on whether to counter acceleration only 3 times. Part of the problem was that I am using Land Grant. Yeah, he gets to see my hand <--dumbass. So FoW is still very hard to overcome at times.


@TheRack, I actually had Cabal Ritual early on, but discovered that I was "going off" so early that I never ever had Threshold. That is still true after more than 60 goldfish and another 30 or so real life games. So I am quite sure Cabal Ritual is stinky. Desperate Ritual has actually been able to splice into a copy of itself from time to time.

If you have Dark Ritual and Infernal Tutor in the deck then why no IGG in the deck, sideboard? That card is just not fair with and LED, a ritual and a Tutor. Makes lethal storm easier to grab with the right combinations of cards you are already running. And while youre at it how about a Tendrils just for fun? :)

So, the list of Living Wish targets is becoming even more insane;

Magus of the Future, 2UUU

Creature-Human Wizard

Play with the top card of your library revealed.

You may play that card.

2/3

The deck has 8 cards that slow it down, Spirit Guides, but other than that there are 16 cards that are free, 16 cards that produce mana and the rest of the cards are win conditions.

Goblins can't even hope to Mogg Fanatic or Gempalm Incinerator it in time unless the top decks are complete ass.

Besides Goblin Charbelcher, I think this is the closest thing to a turn one win as this deck can get.

Are you honestly advocating trying to add a card to the sideboard that's:

1- 5 mana, 3 of which off color
2- A creature with only 3 toughness
3- Not a win condition
4- Not a viable ability; ie removal, etc

The deck could really not abuse this card in the slightest. Ok, it allows you to play the top card of your deck. Problem is, the cards not free. Nor is it going to guarantee that your really going anywhere with it.

Ok, so lets take up this scenario:
You've just spent 7 mana to cast this creature (3UUUG) and it's in play. You flip the topdeck, and it's a ritual (red). You dig a little further, and now you see an Elvish Spirit Guide. So you've got a bunch of red in your pool, and no way to cast it, effectively stopping you from going further, and hurting you even more, both in losing out on ritual effects, AND taking damage. If people are already ditching black to stick with just R/G and losing out on Tutors to search for specific cards, why would the deck want a 3rd color that effectively is a slow and inconsistent draw engine?

Point being, it's not good enough. Sure you can keep rolling if the topdeck luck is right, but a deck relying on it's topdeck in the first place is not going to magically win more than lose when that's all it has to work with.

And WHERE is the turn 1 play coming from with this guy? I've seen people bitch and moan for games on end about how 7 mana just to get Belcher on the table and activated was a pain, here you have 7 mana JUST to get your topdeck rolling. I love the card, but it's not good here, at all.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DeathwingZERO

Are you honestly advocating trying to add a card to the sideboard that's:

1- 5 mana, 3 of which off color
2- A creature with only 3 toughness
3- Not a win condition
4- Not a viable ability; ie removal, etc

The deck could really not abuse this card in the slightest. Ok, it allows you to play the top card of your deck. Problem is, the cards not free. Nor is it going to guarantee that your really going anywhere with it.

Ok, so lets take up this scenario:
You've just spent 7 mana to cast this creature (3UUUG) and it's in play. You flip the topdeck, and it's a ritual (red). You dig a little further, and now you see an Elvish Spirit Guide. So you've got a bunch of red in your pool, and no way to cast it, effectively stopping you from going further, and hurting you even more, both in losing out on ritual effects, AND taking damage. If people are already ditching black to stick with just R/G and losing out on Tutors to search for specific cards, why would the deck want a 3rd color that effectively is a slow and inconsistent draw engine?

Point being, it's not good enough. Sure you can keep rolling if the topdeck luck is right, but a deck relying on it's topdeck in the first place is not going to magically win more than lose when that's all it has to work with.

And WHERE is the turn 1 play coming from with this guy? I've seen people bitch and moan for games on end about how 7 mana just to get Belcher on the table and activated was a pain, here you have 7 mana JUST to get your topdeck rolling. I love the card, but it's not good here, at all.

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Yup, I've been testing the card since before it was spoiled, and it's either been a turn one win, turn two untap and win or if it sticks on the board longer a tun x win as long as it isn't removed in the mean time.

It's a 5cc out for Living Wish to consider, just like Magus of the Jar, and the 3 toughness puts it out of the range of Mogg Fanatic and Gempalm Incinerator.

No reason not to SB it when it's just another possible out, the source of mana is kind of obvious.

I've lost too much games to that fucking Bayou so i finally decided to cut it. Then black mana got rare and Dark Ritual had to go too. There are no more good ritual spells out there so i had so smaller the whole deck (with the inclusion of Street Wraith).
I'm quiet statisfied with this list now:

Creatures
4 Tinder Wall
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Street Wraith
3 Wild Cantor <- could be Ornithopter too in most cases, but sometimes she ''combos'' with a land to get a turn 2 Belcher.

Spells
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Seething Song
4 Lotus Petal
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Chrome Mox
4 Land Grant
4 Rite of Flame
4 Desperate Ritual
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Burning Wish

Lands
2 Taiga

Sideboard
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Pyroclasm
1 Simplify
1 Cave-In
4 Shattering Spree
4 Xantid Swarm
1 Deconstruct
1 Diminishing Returns <- I'm not sure if it's worth playing, sometings the 7 cards were just crap.
1 Infernal Tutor

After goldfishing it seemed that this list has less turn 1 and 2 kills than classic-CRETbelcher but less turn 4,5,6 (and beyond) too. It strongly concentrates on a turn 3 win :wink:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Moczoc

I've lost too much games to that fucking Bayou so i finally decided to cut it. Then black mana got rare and Dark Ritual had to go too. There are no more good ritual spells out there so i had so smaller the whole deck (with the inclusion of Street Wraith).
I'm quiet statisfied with this list now:

Creatures
4 Tinder Wall
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Street Wraith
3 Wild Cantor <- could be Ornithopter too in most cases, but sometimes she ''combos'' with a land to get a turn 2 Belcher.

Spells
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Seething Song
4 Lotus Petal
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Chrome Mox
4 Land Grant
4 Rite of Flame
4 Desperate Ritual
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Burning Wish

Lands
2 Taiga

Sideboard
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Pyroclasm
1 Simplify
1 Cave-In
4 Shattering Spree
4 Xantid Swarm
1 Deconstruct
1 Diminishing Returns <- I'm not sure if it's worth playing, sometings the 7 cards were just crap.
1 Infernal Tutor

After goldfishing it seemed that this list has less turn 1 and 2 kills than classic-CRETbelcher but less turn 4,5,6 (and beyond) too. It strongly concentrates on a turn 3 win :wink:

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I'm sorry, what is a Street Wraith?

Street Wraith is a costly black creature with cycling for 2 live
(future sight)

I played this deck for a while and this was my decklist:

// Lands
1 [B] Bayou

// Creatures
4 [IA] Tinder Wall
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide

// Spells
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
3 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [MR] Seething Song
4 [US] Duress
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [MM] Land Grant
4 [MR] Goblin Charbelcher
4 [IN] Chromatic Sphere
4 [MM] Dark Ritual
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [FD] Plunge into Darkness
4 [MR] Spoils of the Vault

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [B] Taiga
SB: 4 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 4 [B] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 2 [NE] Reverent Silence

The sideboard was created for my meta so it should need some changes (for example Reverence Silence...). Originally i played Goblin Welder in the side but Legacy has too much 1/1 hate... Taiga in side is used when you side-in REB, Shattering or Empty.

Sorry for my bad english. Bye!

Look's like my oldest list :wink: I strongly recommend to play 4 Burning Wish and 3 Empty the Warrens in the Mainboard (and 1 SB). This is the only way the deck becomes competitive.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Moczoc

Look's like my oldest list :wink: I strongly recommend to play 4 Burning Wish and 3 Empty the Warrens in the Mainboard (and 1 SB). This is the only way the deck becomes competitive.

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We did a quick test over the weekend with the version that made top 2 at the GPT and it had a 50-60% first turn "going off" each time. This includes Playing a Belcher and activating it the next turn, and making 12 plus goblins. The speed of this deck is sick, but it loses straight up to FoW, ETW or not.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Happy Gilmore

We did a quick test over the weekend with the version that made top 2 at the GPT and it had a 50-60% first turn "going off" each time. This includes Playing a Belcher and activating it the next turn, and making 12 plus goblins. The speed of this deck is sick, but it loses straight up to FoW, ETW or not.

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Cut Dark Ritual and Wild Cantor and go with Xantid Swarm? It seems like most combo decks are 100% better with bees in it.

I'd rather play them SB to make my opponents board out their creature-removal after game 1.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Moczoc

Look's like my oldest list :wink: I strongly recommend to play 4 Burning Wish and 3 Empty the Warrens in the Mainboard (and 1 SB). This is the only way the deck becomes competitive.

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Yes, I imagine that my old list needs an "upgrade".

I see the built at page 15 but i have to test it to understand why Burning Wish is so important. Instead i agree with Empty maindeck.

IM looking at gatherer seeing if there is anything good from future sight for belcher..i'll edit this post when I finish looking..

At a quick glance:

Street Wraith - Every combo player seems to have a boner about this guy. I'm skeptical, because it makes mulligan decisions that much harder (as if they weren't already), but if there's a deck worth trying it out in, it's Belcher.

Summoner's Pact - ESG #8-12. Very real chances of replacing Wild Cantor.

Other Pacts - None interesting.

Magus of the Vineyard - Usually worse than Eladamri's Vineyard, and nobody plays that.

Edge of Autumn - Uncounterable Crop Rotation for zero mana, but fetches only basics and they CIP tapped. Unplayable.

Storm Entity - If there are more Pyroclasms than Swords to Plowshares in your meta, this is better than Empty the Warrens.

Glittering Wish - Good, but not for this deck.

Grinning Ignus - Almost strictly worse than Pentad Prism.

Cloud Key - In fast combo, just worse than Helm of Awakening.

Nihilith - If I wanted an alternate win condition like TES has, I'd do like TES and play Tomb of Urami.

Here's the list I've been playing

4 Belcher
4 ETW
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Spoils

4 Rit
4 Rite of Flame
4 Land Grant
1 Bayou
1 Taiga
2 Cabal Rit
6ish Spirit Guides
4 Walls
4 LED
4 CMox
4 Lotus Petal

3 Bees
3 Welders (counts as both protection and mana, seeing as how he says R, wait a turn, add 4 to your mana pool)


Seething Song is terrible in this deck. You don't want to pay 3 mana for +2 mana. You want to pay 1 for +1/+2, or 0 for +1/+3. Cabal Rit is the weakest card in the deck (you never hit Thresh), but it's good with the other Rits (Rit + Cabal Rit = Belcher, Rite of Flame + Cabal Rit + a black and red = Belcher, etc). Tendrils should never be played in Legacy Belcher. You never hit 10 storm. Burning/Living Wish can't grab Belcher, ditch them.

Your primary plan should always be to kill with Belcher when you have the correct amount of mana (what you grab with IT/Spoils) unless you had double Belcher in your hand or something and have to Spoils and respond with LED for some reason. Killing your opponent outright is plan A always. EtW is plan B, for Needle, when it's in your opening hand, and when your hand doesn't produce enough mana to activate Belcher (ie, you have to topdeck Ritual or LED or something like that to activate it the following turn). Welder + Xantid is the package to beat control with, 1cc "threats" are great even if they're creatures (Xantid being good for slow rolling it, Welder for working around countermagic and making 4 mana when you've got a Chrome Mox/Petal down in conjunction with LED). Spoils is entirely underrated. Oh no I can kill myself! Not a big deal, not a big risk, big reward. 16 kills + Tutors in the main is ridiculous.


SB can have Sprees in it, the missing Spirit guides (Simian + Spree sounds pretty good), REBs if you like them, the missing Welder and Swarm, Duress, etc.

You crush aggro. Goblins/Affinity scoops to you pre-board assuming you don't Spoils yourself out, post board they have Needle/Chalice (Affinity may have Chalice main, if it's something you expect to show up, you can have some Sprees main over the anti-control stuff, those slots are mallable).

You have outs against control/FoW including going for it on turn 1 under the assumption that you win 55% of those game (chance of a hand containing atleast 1 FoW is 39.96% or so, take off another 5% or something like that based on Spoiling yourself out, or making 12 EtW tokens and them having Pyroclasm).



This is about the most unfair deck I think I've played, and it requires little to no thinking (as far as planning and crunching probabilities, reading opponents is another story) whatsover.

I tryed the deck that made top 2 at the GPT and i have to say that it really works fine (even burning wish... i can't belive it!). It's really fast and it has the advantage that you never kill yourself (with spoils in example).

Great work!

Infernal Tutor is just a bad Burning Wish, 9 mana to find and activate Belcher is unreasonable in this deck, so it becomes an off color tutor for Empty the Warrens, and Spoils of the Vault is just giving the opponent free wins.

Black just isn't worth it.

Seething Song, however, is a great card, albeit difficult to cast, it almost gets to the 6 mana breaking point for Burning Wish for Empty the Warrens by itself.

Altho' this deck is very easy to play and very resilient, you still have to be certain your MD just doesn't unnecessarily suck, that's the hardest thing to get down with the deck.

Also, the other problem with the deck is that it doesn't allow the player to capitalize on his skill against an unskilled opponent, but on the flip side, it doesn't really allow the reverse either.

Pact of Negation may be a decent sideboard option for this deck to bring in as protection. It probably isn't as good as bees are, though.

0

Instant

Pact of Negation is blue.
Counter target spell.
At the beginning of your next upkeep, pay 3UU. If you don't, you lose the game.

Remember that you can activate Belcher in response to the game loss trigger.