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I imagine Penumbra Spider is in since it stops everything in Delver and requires a burn spell in addition (or double burnspell) to kill, and then does it again. Sigarda is similar but getting to 5 is a lot harder than 4 (and at that point Thrag is fine too). Scryb Ranger can be burnt out of the way (especially with Forked Bolt), and so can Matsu-Tribe sniper etc. Spider is reasonable to sac to therapy and goes off with Recurring Nightmare if you were to play it, too.
Here is the list (based on Arian's one and reworked to suit my style) I'll be playing this week end at my LGS:
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
3 Bayou
1 Badland
4 Verdant catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Savannah
1 Karakas
4 Deathrite shaman
2 Veteran explorer
1 Scavenging ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Eternal Witness
1 Spike Feeder
1 Selvala, Explorer returned
2 Siege rhino
2 Archangel of thune
1 Sigarda, host of herons
2 Sensei's divining top
1 Sylvan library
2 Pernicious deed
3 Abrupt decay
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun Zenith
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Thougthseize
1 Maelstrom pulse
Sideboard
1 Ethersworn canonist
1 Spirit of the labyrinth
2 Aven Mindcensor
1 Sorin, lord of Innistrad
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Choke
2 Surgical extraction
2 Golgari charm
1 Krosan grip
2 Thoughtseize
Feel free to add any constructive comments.
OK, I've done a little testing. I think I have a solid value list — no real tricks, a couple toolboxes. I have no byes for the GP so I will definitely be playing round 1. So I'm expecting to see burn, dredge, elves early.
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Siege Rhino
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Eternal Witness
1 Thragtusk
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Batterskull
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Sylvan Library
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Golgari Charm
1 Recurring Nightmare
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Marsh Flats
It is 61 cards. I could probably cut the Marsh Flats. Vault was the 61st card, but I really love it against the burn decks that I feel like will be endemic throughout the tournament. I actually thought about Diamond Valley, but it doesn't produce mana, and Miren requires you to have 3 mana + a creature on board which isn't all that different than Vault anyway. Plus, there's lots of neat tricks and you can gain a lot more life with Vault.
Where I'm stuck is the sideboard. These are the cards I want to have:
3 Thoughtseize
3 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Pithing Needle
It's worth respecting combo decks and graveyard decks. Needle is also a nice catch-all.
Then I'm wondering about these:
1-2 Gaddock Teeg (Obviously I want this in for trouble matchups. Not sure if I want to have the extra in my pocket though. Not coming in vs. Cruise at all)
0-1 additional removal (Abrupt Decay, Maelstrom Pulse or Council's Judgement. Or none.)
0-1 additional disenchant effects (Pridemage, Reclamation Sage, Krosan Grip. Batterskull is annoying...)
0-2 additional sweeper (Deluge, Deed, Charm. I would lean toward Deluge to hedge against opposing Pithing Needles.)
0-2 Planeswalkers (Probably Liliana of the Veil. Sorin, Lord of Innistrad is the only other one I would consider. Didn't like any of the Garruks vs. Miracles which is a key reason I want a PW. Lili clears their board but doesn't win the game. Sorin goes up in loyalty to make dudes then steals their Jace. Both -2 abilities are irrelevant.)
0-1 Scavenging Ooze (I had this in the main but went with a 4th DRS instead. While Scooze is more of a blowout against dredge it's luck or a GSZ turn which makes it pretty unreliable.)
0-2 Carpet of Flowers (I think a PW is better against miracles. I should be able to make land drops and with 4 DRS can still do t1 dork into t2 must-answer play)
I have decided that I don't really care about a resolved Treasure Cruise all that much. We are an x-for-1 deck so with patience, luck, and planning for how decks with Treasure Cruise use it, it should be largely irrelevant if they draw more cards. Nice Forked Bolt, I have a Siege Rhino, you know? I'd rather just go over the top than play cards that actively screw with our own game plan like Teeg in the main or that require a significant time and mana investment like Scooze just to keep them from drawing more cantrips eventually. Deathrite can control their GY a bit while clocking them or gaining life.
The only other thing I am trying to decide is 3rd Deed/2nd Charm/1st Deluge vs. 2nd Sylvan. Sylvan is so good, even if it's deeded away. Just drawing one extra card off of it can swing a game immensely. But I see most lists have 3 sweepers and 3 library manipulators. Charm is a meta call, it hits the YP and Elf armies for no life (and for 2 mana). I want to keep the curve somewhat low too and run 3 Decay, it's just a hammer. Not hitting TNN sucks, but it does deal with other annoyances like Goyf.
All of the various white decks that are not running Sigarda and/or X number of Baneslayers need to state their reasoning why. "Space" is not a valid argument.
So I've been working on a sideboard for ScapeWish to include the DCM + TF combo as well:
2x Pyroblast
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Carpet of Flower
1x Ruination
1x Massacre
1x Twinflame
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Slaughter Games
1x Thoughtseize
1x Pyroclasm
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Scapeshift
Other thoughts on Twinflame...it really is a great card in the deck and makes sense to use a SB slot for it. My thoughts are to cast a Thragtusk, then next turn Twinflame x2, gain 10 life, swing for 15, then at EoT get 2x 3/3s.
This SB is geared towards a New England / East Coast meta where all Delver variants, Elves, 12post, and Miracles runs rampant.
Let me know if anyone has any thoughts or suggestions.
I do <3 me some Sigarda, but I don't think she's well-positioned at the moment. I don't think Liliana is going to be very popular, there are few other sac effects to really worry about (you run into Pox, you're never getting a Sigarda down anyway). Flying, hexproof 5-drop is nice, but Rhino gives us the evasion and a CIP ability at 1 less CMC and doesn't just lead to untap, bolt bolt kill you. I think curve toppers need to gain life in this burn-heavy meta.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
Baneslayer, on the other hand, is intriguing. Trying to decide if she's better than Batterskull. She actually does something against Griselbrand, but Batterskull is a persistent threat, even if just on board in a top deck war (strap it to a late VetEx). I might do that. What would you cut?
Sigarda's still insane. The metric to judge her by is not how many Lilianas are in the field, but how many Council's Judgments. Low Judgments = Sigarda is insane. She's so natively strong that you don't compare her to things she's good vs, but those she's bad vs instead.Quote:
Originally Posted by maharis
Can you hold off until Mondayish? I can just do a full run-down and criticism if so -- if you have an event this weekend I can try to just bulletpoint some quick thoughts later tonight.
I have been relentlessly testing Abzan as well, and I have to say that Sigarda is a must. Even if your meta has Council's Judgment, there are going to be other things that they will need it for as well. I was playing against miracles last night, and Sigarda did a lot of work. He terminused her 2 times but GSZ just kept grabbing her. Eventually I ground him out of ways to deal with her thanks to keeping deed around for the angels. I think his library had 9 cards in it when I finally lethal swung.
Also, dont forget to leave karakas untapped when you play her, just in case they do have the judgment. Her being a legend is very important in that regard.
I'm on my way to Miami for a work trip so plenty of time, haha. Don't put yourself out! Appreciate the advice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
Lost to UR again with Abzan. They just gas you out and counter your most powerful early game spells like Deed, Thragtusk, or anything else for that matter. I am thinking about changing my sideboard Toxic Deluges for Golgari Charms or maybe a 1/1 split with Night of Souls Betrayal. Anyone else testing that matchup at all?
At SCG Minneapolis, I went 0-1-1 against UR Delver. Most games were pretty tight. My maindeck golgari charm was good in the matchup. Night seems good. Heck, even an Engineered plague on humans is good. Moat (if you can stick it) is pretty nasty. Most UR delver sideboards I've seen don't have any bounce.Quote:
Originally Posted by ironclad8690
Good points, they also have to deal with enchantments on the stack or bust. I forgot about good ol engineered plague. Embarassingly, I did once lose to UR with Punishing Jund after resolving a Plague on Humans. Dat 1/2 swiftspear...Quote:
Originally Posted by jbone2016
In other news, I lethalled a douchy Miracles player with Siege Rhino's ETB trigger before he rage-kicked me on cockatrice. There are few feelings better than that one.
Personally I think UR Delver and UR Burn are probably the easiest matchups for Abzan fit. It is comparable to RUG because they only have Delver to attack over Explorer, except that they don't even have Stifle to stop it this time. Any deck with SFM, Jitte, and Bskull for that matter has a fair chance against burn decks. Throw in a couple life gaining creatures like DRS, Ooze, Kruphix, etc. some basic land ramp, and make it all available via GSZ and you have a pretty strong deck against anything that intends to throw red cards at your face for damage.
I booked my hotel and got my byes for Jersey but I am still hesitating between Abzan Fit and my 5c Waterfalls deck I won my GPT with. I always promised myself I would pilot a Nic Fit deck to a major event because I helped pioneer and popularize it. Last GP in DC I didn't because I felt that a deck like Team America was a real contender at the time in the emerging TNN metagame (which it turned out to be). I had already tabled Nic Fit for a while because it simply wasn't good anymore since Sneak Show got Griselbrand, Miracle got more popular, and Delver decks stopped having to swing into Explorer to get damage through. I definitely feel like Junk is a contender now and that Nic Fit is the best shell for it. Going over the top with GSZ, basic lands, and having access to lots of life gain is a great way to answer the Delver-Burn-Cruise craze. I definitely prefer Junk to Waterfalls against red decks (Delver or not) and the better combo decks (Storm, SnT, Reanimator), but it is nowhere near as potent against Miracles and Elves which are extremely easy for Waterfalls. Maybe I'll just toss a coin in the end...
Here's where I'm at:
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Veteran Explorer
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
2 Sylvan Library
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains
//SB
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Pithing Needle
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Choke
Sadly, the time has come for Witness to make way for Kruphix. Witness is too slow and clunky and I have little incentives to play it without the twin towers. Kruphix is simply amazing, especially with Library. An easy swap in the end.
I'd like to squeeze in an Engineered Plague in the SB for Elves and a 2nd Choke against Miracles but it seems to be a little too much asked.
I've noticed that a lot of people are moving away from Deed and running Deluge instead, or forsaking sweepers entirely. Why is this? Do you guys think that Deed is too slow?
Deed is too slow. Deluge is easier to play around with in order to get a one-sided wrath. Deluge against a Delver and Nemesis board will cost 3 mana and 2 life and will leave your Batterskull token, Jitte, Ooze, and Kruphix alive while Deed will cost twice as much mana and wrath both sides. You can also easily use Deluge for 1 and sweep x/1 boards while keeping your Deathrites.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ironclad8690
I thought about Night of Souls Betrayal the other day. Trouble is no way to tutor for it other than Rector, which also has no way to tutor for it besides Pod, and I wonder if Doomwake Giant doesn't just do what we want Night to do while also attacking and netting us another enchantment or 5 drop. Night is definitely a good meta card without a home at the moment though, as a sideboard option I think E-Plague is better and it doesn't seem right in a maindeck outside Pox which will lose super hard to burn anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by jbone2016
Vs. UR delver, I had this weird feeling like the deck wasn't good enough in testing. I was losing, or winning close games. I decided the issue was not being able to gain life off of Knight. Most lifegain lands suck, but I tested Vault of the Archangel and it's insane. They already can't deal with a resolved Knight of any respectable size without 2-for-1ing themselves at best. Then you add gaining 5+ life a turn to that, and it's over.
Qweerios, I like your deck idea, it's sort of like Junk Midrange without Bobs or Wastelands and trying to go over the top with GSZ instead. Do you think running 4 Therapy is worth it still with only 1 VetEx?
Sweepers: I like Deluge a lot, and tested it MD, but it's too risky with the amount of burn out there at the moment. Deluge is great out of the SB to deal with needle effects on Deed though. To deal with Deed's speed issues, I'm running Charm to clear out the first wave of annoyances and reduce pressure on Deed to do it all.
I dropped a line two pages ago about doomwake in rector pod and no one bit. I like the concept but until my computer is up and running again I cant test anything. Abzan lists seem to be converging on the stoneforge rhino plan which tells me despite my inability to test im atleast theroy crafting in the right direction. Can't wait to have rhino and tusk altered into beebop and rocksteady...
In regard of Doomwake Giant and Enlightened Tutor plan along with Canonist, Aegis of the Gods, Spirit of the Labyrinth one might also consider running Agent of Erebos in Pod lists.
Siege Rhino is awesome, i tried a list with 0 Thragtusk and 1 Siege Rhino, but i ended up wanting both. Those cards complete each other. Siege Rhino can just snipe shot your opponent to death. I still believe that GBW NicFit is where you wan to be at with NicFit currently. SFM-Batterskull is just so good versus UR and GBW provides a toolbox versus nearly any deck in any meta. It's just that the deck is not easy to play correctly and often winning or not losing is done through very thight play. But it is highly rewarding if you win.
Also i am looking back at PFire NicFit and am thinking to play 2 Domri Rade and 1 Courser of Kruphix instead of 1 Liliana, 1 Garruk Relentless and 1 Eternall Witness. Also i think i will drop Thrun, the Last Troll and Kessig Wolf Run and go for the Two Towers along with 2 Huntmasters of the Fells (i am really starting to love this fellow). I really like being able to have explosive starts with Phyrexian Tower/VetEx or go grindy with Stronghold shenanigans.
@Ralp + all, apologies was working all weekend, I'll post sideboard notes today or tomorrow hopefully, time permitting (I feel it's an aspect that isn't being discussed too much here, and it be good to get the ball rolling!)
Regarding your food for thought (thanks by the way)
1) & 4) One of your Gsun slots needs to be allocated to some sort of aerial domination in my opinion, because of the delver menace, creature in D&T, and other random stuff. Originally it was Sigarda, however as mentioned by Navsi, it was often too expensive at 6 mana. It would also mean playing the second plains in the mana base (likely the worst card in the deck!). It was both a successful and failed experiment. Against delver the card is hilariously efficient, and is also a reader, which is a bonus :P but it was extremely inefficient against the majority of the rest of the field and was often sided out. As such, I'm removing it, but I wanted to post it in the original list to make sure you guys are aware of the card, it certainly isn't a bad one :) Since I'm always committing one Gsun slot to some form of aerial domination (the other suggestions that were named were poor because of their low toughness as pointed out again by Navsi) I'll be adding Sigarda back in (I do love that artwork)
2) Phyrexian Towers: our mana base is good enough to support a number of utility lands and I also want a threshold of sacrifice outlets for the potential 6 vet exps. So 6 sac outlets seemed apporpriate (I'm new to the nic fit shell) the opportunity cost is so low but yet the card leads to our most explosive starts, 2 seemed like a no-brainer to me. More on this later though.
3) 4 toxic deluge! Yes the card is amazing, however, it may be a bit overkill. When I begin testing ideas I usually max on them to see how they feel. Having 4 to start has allowed me to confirm that the main idea (stop using deed as the sweeper of choice (enabling the addition of low CMC powerful cards) and lowering the curve of the deck while using mana variable cards to instead abuse the amount of mana you can get) is definitely worth perusing. While testing I found that main deck I had no answers to huge creatures and the number of removal spells was a bit over the top.
As such I want to try cutting one deluge, moving another to the side (in exchange for 1 of the deeds) and adding an Abzan charm to the main. It elimanates the large creatures and isn't irrelevant against the non creature decks.
5) I've found myself often with a greensun zenith in my and and 3 mana in play. It's possible that you should always go for an explorer with that so you can get more mana. But against some decks they don't care (Miracles, combo, D&T etc) and at this stage scooze is too slow (his secretly a 3-4 mana creature). I've also found myself not being able to clock certain decks quick enough. As such I want to try adding a goyf (which acts similar to a removal spell for the other deluge I cut) and a KotR (another card I miss), along with the addition of Sigarda and the already present siege rhino, that creates a chain of potentially efficient beat sticks all the way along the mana curve.
The addition of knight would also lend support to your idea of cutting one of the towers for Karakas, but with Sigarda we'd probably want the 2nd plains, and with a karakas we'd have 3 mono white sources, which is the splash colour for our deck and could lead to many abysmal draws :( perhaps I just don't add the 2nd plains?
This leads the deck to this next iteration, (I love building decks, so thanks for the input) 61 cards is fine.
4 Verd Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh flats
2 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Plains
2 Bayou
2 Savanah
1 Scrubland
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volraths Stronghold
22
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Greensun's Zenith
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Veteran Explorer
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Scooze
1 Teeg
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Eternal Witness
1 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda
1 Thragtusk
4 SFM
1 Jitte
1 Sword of F&I
1 Batterskull
4 Cabal therapy
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Abzan Charm
2 Sylvan Library
I'll discuss the sideboard in a seperate post and then talk about sideboard plans.
Though I will say now that my deck wasn't at all tuned for local meta, but for a meta described by MTGO and the CFB article regarding the post cruise events :)
For people testing it, how has Abzan Charm been? My removal at the moment is 4 decay, 2 STP and 2 Liliana...I might cut a decay to try the charm out.