[Deck] Grixis Tempo

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Originally Posted by eyeownyu

Just curious but why are people cutting down to 3 young peezys? It seems like threat density is a problem in general with delver decks.

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Threat densety isn't that much of a problem since we play 14 creatures instead of the 12 RUG Delver e.g. plays. That said since RUG plays a shroud creature in Mongoose though and we play 12 creatures that die to Bolt and especially Punishing Fire I find that 14 is the number to go, especially since Angler is really good against BUG and Jund.

As for why the YP: Especially post-sideboard you can get 2-for-1-ed when playing 2 Pyros or you have one Pyro and play an unflipped Delver and your opponent plays Forked Bolt or Golgari Charm (or zealous persecution though that's less common). That's why I generall only play 1 Pyromancer at a time (even though I play the full 4).
I also developed the habit of attacking aggressively into DRS postboard and offer trades for my YP, especially when I don't have much action in hand or already have 2-3 tokens that can bash in the following turns when my opponent decides to block the YP. It's just way better that way in regards of being aggressiveas well as denying them mana.

I also don't like playing less than 4 YP since then your postboard plan of 4YP 4 Probes 4 Therapies against combo doesn't work that well.

Edit: Looking at the Decklists of SCG Philly I saw that the 4th Pyro just gor replaced by Clique. That seems nice since the look-ability is just nice with Cabal Therapy, too.
That actually solves some of the problems of having double-Pyro in your hand while at the same time having a good "replacement-synergy" with Therapy.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=99290

The thing that kinda bugs me about Noah Walker's "value" transition is that it's really susceptible to Golgari Charm (Grim Lavamancer, Strix, YP/Clique). I like the painful truths though, I guess at least some of the Probes come out due to the lifeloss there. If anybody sees a tournament report could you post it in this thread?

Hi, I went 5-3-1 at SCG Philly with Grixis Delver, but I was 5-1 at one point before kind of choking and going draw-loss-loss down the stretch. So here's a quick report so you can learn from my errors.

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Young Pyromancer
2 Gurmag Angler

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
4 Daze
2 Gitaxian Probe
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Far // Away
1 Fire // Ice
1 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
1 Darkblast

4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island

2 Surgical Extraction
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Flusterstorm
1 Dismember
1 Null Rod
1 Smash to Smithereens
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Dread of Night
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pyroblast
1 Vendilion Clique

Couple notes on the list: I prefer the Therapy to Stifle plan but also wanted to have extra blue cards, counters and removal given the meta I expected (Miracles, Eldrazi, and Lands), so I trimmed down from 4 Probe 3 Therapy to 3 and 2, and added the Far // Away (force-pitchable removal, answers Marit Lage, Emrakul, and TNN) and Spell Pierce. Then as they were about to collect decklists I suddenly felt that I didn't have enough artifact removal and decided to add Smash to Smithereens and move either Darkblast or Dismember to the maindeck. If I had it to do over again, I would move Dismember, but it didn't really matter in the actual tournament.

Rd. 1: Sneak & Show. Not much to say here, we have a fast clock and lots of disruption, as long as we're not ambushed by Blood Moon this is pretty easy. I mulled to six in all three games and had t1 Delver with disruption back up each time. In game 2 I had three turns to look for far/away when he had Griz on the field, no S&T's in his deck (Surgical) and only two lands (so no way to sneak), but I never found it. The only blemish on a pretty fast match. 1-0

Rd. 2: Maverick. A little scary, but he keeps a marginal hand game 1 and I have delver and wasteland and bolt and stuff. Game 2 more of the same. 2-0

Rd. 3: Lands. My sixth straight turn 1 delver carries me through game 1, but I get Marit Laged on like turn 4 of game 2. Game three was the highlight of the tournament. I probe him to find Exploration, Loam, Krosan Grip, Port, Tabernacle, and two other lands and my hand is Pithing Needle, Delver, two wastes and two fetches. Sigh. But I rip DRS and am able to keep my head above water by using DRS to pay for itself and still be able to cast spells and stuff. Loam gets surgicaled, but he has so many cards in his hand, there is a point where he wastes my Usea and Decays my DRS and passes to me and I have no permanents in play.

But I have trop-DRS, which I deploy and pass back. We play draw-go for a while and I eventually get out an Angler. Eventually my board is DRS-Angler-Trop-Wasteland and his is like 7 lands including Thespians Stage. He taps a lot of his lands for something... I think to copy a basic forest with his stage, then casts Gamble with his last land. I daze it. He is shocked but I simply ran out of stuff to board out and I thought Daze might be good against Primeval Titan. Back to me, I attack and pass back. My hand is two bolts and brainstorm.

On his turn, he uses stage to copy my wasteland, I response by wasting back so he can't kill Trop. but he drops another, and dark depths, makes marit lage, and passes back to me. I bolt EOT, dropping him to 6, and go to my turn with Trop, DRS, and Angler in play and Bolt-Brainstorm in hand. I have to brainstorm and find a land and Far/Away, then bounce Marit Lage. But instead I find Volcanic Island and bolt #3. DRS exiles a land and Bolts him, then I drop Volc and Bolt him for the win. So lucky. 3-0

Rd. 4: Deathblade. Game 1 I see wasteland and two Useas, little else, and a probe reveals Jace, Liliana, Spell Pierce and TNN. In between I draw and deploy a bunch of creatures and overwhelm him. I assume this is some BUG thing and board accordingly. But in game 2 he has turn 2 SFM, which I kill, but he also has turn 3 SFM. Though I am able to therapy away Batterskull and EE away Jitte. But he refills with Painful Truths and I don't have an answer to TNN. Game 3 I have artifact removal. Still goes like game 2 but he straps Batterskull to TNN for extra pain. 3-1

Rd. 5: Omnitell. See Sneak & Show but he never resolves S&T. 4-1

Rd. 6: UR delver. He mulls to 4 game 1 and my deck has better cards than his thanks to the presence of black. 5-1

Rd. 7: Bant Deathblade. After round 6 my friend tells me about this wacky brew he played against that had Titania, Priestess of Argoth. Tells me all about what's in the deck. Then I get paired against the same guy. So he loses the rogue factor. Game 1 I have a lot of good cards and he gets a little flooded. Game 2 is very long. I make a critical error: I know he has Zealous Persecution from a Probe or something, but I play double Delver into it despite the fact that I'm holding Spell Snare. Just a brain freeze. This game goes a long time. At the end I try to swing out ftw but am 1 damage short. I actually had a better line at the end too: bolt titania and ride my 3 DRS to victory. Just got anxious and screwed up. With only about 5 minutes on the clock we draw. 5-1-1

Rd. 8: Miracles. Of course, because I got a draw. I'm pretty down because of making such a stupid error, and I don't play my best here. I think the matchup is about 50/50, but this player made top 32 while I played double Delver into Zealous Persecution. 5-2-1

Rd. 9: Maverick: Welcome to the prayer bracket, I tell my opponent. OUr only chance is that 64th place is 6-2-1. (It was 6-1-2). Didn't matter as my deck doesn't really cooperate game 1 and I flood out unable to interact with his value plan, and in game 2 I get viciously Choked. 5-3-1

All in all, deck felt really good. I felt I had a chance in every match. Honestly other than game 2 of round 7 and round 8 I played pretty well. Would definitely play this deck again in a high-stakes tournament with the caveat of just having to test some against Eldrazi. I really liked Noah Walker's Baleful Strix in the board for this matchup.

One card I am interested in testing without is actually Young Pyromancer. I didn't even attempt to play one for the first two rounds and it wasn't till the Bant matchup that it did much of anything. I am thinking about playing Hymn to Tourach and adding a Tombstalker, which is 11 creatures. Would love to find a nice 12-13, will have to hunt on magiccards.info for ideas tonight. Hymn/Tombstalker probably means running 4 usea, 2 volc, 1 badlands and going up to 19 lands as well, maybe even putting Trop in the board. So it's not a perfect idea but a big flying dude would shore up a lot of issues I had, I think.

Hehe, I thought the Darkblast in the mainboard was weird when I went through the list at first. Also didn't you have an Ancient Grudge for the SB?

I must admit that the 2 Therapies in the maindeck seem pretty weak, especially with only 2 Probes and 3 YP. Didn't you just too often have to name random cards blind without having the ability to flash it back because of the lack of tokens? It's not like you can just name Counters like in storm. If you don't like the 4th YP you could try a Clique to get more looks on the opponent's hand like Noah Walker did.
If you don't like them at all and want to dive more into black I guess 2 TNN alongside 2 Angler could be nice. I still think Angler is better than Tomb Stalker in Legacy since 2 mana as well as double black can be an issue, even if you go for something like 3 u-seas 2 volcs 1 trop.
On the other side if you don't want to play YP why not just switch for BUG? I don't think you want the shaky 4th color just for Bolts, you can play 4 decay and either disfigure, dismember or murderous cut and a far better mana base.

Anyways, nice tournament report! Always glad to read those. :smile:

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Originally Posted by Agrippa91

Edit: Looking at the Decklists of SCG Philly I saw that the 4th Pyro just gor replaced by Clique. That seems nice since the look-ability is just nice with Cabal Therapy, too.
That actually solves some of the problems of having double-Pyro in your hand while at the same time having a good "replacement-synergy" with Therapy.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=99290

The thing that kinda bugs me about Noah Walker's "value" transition is that it's really susceptible to Golgari Charm (Grim Lavamancer, Strix, YP/Clique). I like the painful truths though, I guess at least some of the Probes come out due to the lifeloss there. If anybody sees a tournament report could you post it in this thread?

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the strix in the sideboard looks interesting to me. did u see when he boarded same? is for marrit mage, since we can't block flying creatures?
I play one tnn instead of the clique because I love that guy. he can block everything without dying and swings in for three if possible.

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Originally Posted by cherson

the strix in the sideboard looks interesting to me. did u see when he boarded same? is for marrit mage, since we can't block flying creatures?
I play one tnn instead of the clique because I love that guy. he can block everything without dying and swings in for three if possible.

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Since Merit Lage is indestructible and they propably have Punishing Fire anyways at that time Strix wouldn't do any good against lands I think.
He said in the interview that the 2 Strix and 2 Truths were for the fair matchups. On camera you can see the Strix doing work against the Eldrazi.
I'd recommend Clique if you want to go for the Therapies in the mainboard, otherwise TNN could be fine too, of course.

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Originally Posted by Agrippa91

Hehe, I thought the Darkblast in the mainboard was weird when I went through the list at first. Also didn't you have an Ancient Grudge for the SB?

I must admit that the 2 Therapies in the maindeck seem pretty weak, especially with only 2 Probes and 3 YP. Didn't you just too often have to name random cards blind without having the ability to flash it back because of the lack of tokens? It's not like you can just name Counters like in storm. If you don't like the 4th YP you could try a Clique to get more looks on the opponent's hand like Noah Walker did.
If you don't like them at all and want to dive more into black I guess 2 TNN alongside 2 Angler could be nice. I still think Angler is better than Tomb Stalker in Legacy since 2 mana as well as double black can be an issue, even if you go for something like 3 u-seas 2 volcs 1 trop.
On the other side if you don't want to play YP why not just switch for BUG? I don't think you want the shaky 4th color just for Bolts, you can play 4 decay and either disfigure, dismember or murderous cut and a far better mana base.

Anyways, nice tournament report! Always glad to read those. :smile:

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Thank you -- I love writing those, I know Legacy players are starved for good strategic content so I live to please!

Ancient Grudge -- I felt that the accelerated clock would be more relevant than the two-for-one in matchups where I wanted the artifact destruction. Plus there are a lot of decks where you want the artifact destruction where you can't necessarily stick a green mana anyway. I don't bring in Decay for anything besides Miracles, for example.

Therapy -- I gathered that Probe/YP/Therapy wasn't as strong as it had been in the past, but I have played lots of Bx midrange in my time and I'm simply more comfortable playing with Cabal Therapy than Stifle. So I trimmed the entire package down. Therapy and Pyromancer are great in the right situation, but too often they are clunky, hence my idea to try some sort of Hymn plan.

Grixis vs. BUG -- besides not owning my own Goyfs, I simply believe Bolt to be a more important card in most matchups for the tempo/delver deck than Decay. See lands matchup. I have played BUG delver before (with borrowed goyfs, so a real deck) and felt that unless I just had insane draws all the time my opponent would just stabilize and I would lose. I like this deck's ability to rebound a little more and Bolt is a good card for that.

Overall, I think the strength of this deck is the ability to have 8 insane 1-drops. Either of them into a Hymn can be backbreaking and the presence of the delve (mechanic) creatures gives you more options than just Goyf. With DRS and 4 Useas getting to double black shouldn't be all that hard and cards like Hymn and Tombstalker with Bolt and Delver seem really good. The deck will end up being a little bit more like RUG with only the 4 red spells + board cards, I think.

But that's not to say YP is dead. Card is super fun to play with.

Just bough a Vendilion Clique (30€, magiccardmarket.eu is awesome!) because it was always a card I wanted to own and it just seems really good as a replacement for the 4th Young Pyro. I thought long about testing it and here are the top reasons I think it might be good ordered from strongest to weakest:

1. We all know that multiple YPs in hand are less than ideal, but I really want to keep the 4-4-4 package of YP-Probe-Therapy because the chances to hit get significantly worse when you cut down this synergy (can you e.g. imagine Sneak&Show cutting down on creatures because more than 1 is often times bad?). Clique actually fills a YP-spot here post-board because it gives you a free look at the opponent's hand. The fact that it only works "ok" with Probe is fine I think, you can still check before if it's worth or when exactly to play your clique.

2. It can be really good against cards our deck is weak against, e.g. Jitte (when searched with Stoneforge), Loam (get'em on the draw step), Punishing Fire (if they e.g. get it back at the end step without enough mana up to cast it).

3. Sometimes with 14 creatures I have the feeling that we get draws that are too "fair", e.g. just a bunch of creatures that don't interact well with Combo or Control (YP with just a bunch of creatures in hand is horrible). Clique hopefully solves this problem by interacting with the opponent's hand as well as by sometimes filtering our triple-DRS or double-YP-draw (or other awkward stuff)

4. It's a good replacement against Miracles for my fourth cut stifle (Miracle Trigger and top shenanigans). They can bounce it with Karakas of course, so I might reconsider cutting all Wastelands against Miracles. Does anybody have experience how good Clique is if they can still bounce it the whole time? I still imagine it's pretty decent. That said I'm really not that concerned about Miracles with my list.

Edit: To the BUG vs Grixis: I also really like Bolt over Decay. As I said, when you try a list like 3 u-seas 2 volcs 1 trop with 4 drs 4 delver 2 angler 2 tnn it should be super fine, I imagine the 12 creatures are more than enough because your opponents often times simply can't deal with your creatures.

I'm debating on keeping at least a few wastelands vs the legendary version of miracles. Maybe only 2?

That seems like a good idea. Lightning Bolt just isn't as good since while it can be decent against Venser it's bad when they play Clique with Karakas up.

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Originally Posted by Agrippa91

Just bough a Vendilion Clique (30€, magiccardmarket.eu is awesome!) because it was always a card I wanted to own and it just seems really good as a replacement for the 4th Young Pyro. I thought long about testing it and here are the top reasons I think it might be good ordered from strongest to weakest:

1. We all know that multiple YPs in hand are less than ideal, but I really want to keep the 4-4-4 package of YP-Probe-Therapy because the chances to hit get significantly worse when you cut down this synergy (can you e.g. imagine Sneak&Show cutting down on creatures because more than 1 is often times bad?). Clique actually fills a YP-spot here post-board because it gives you a free look at the opponent's hand. The fact that it only works "ok" with Probe is fine I think, you can still check before if it's worth or when exactly to play your clique.

2. It can be really good against cards our deck is weak against, e.g. Jitte (when searched with Stoneforge), Loam (get'em on the draw step), Punishing Fire (if they e.g. get it back at the end step without enough mana up to cast it).

3. Sometimes with 14 creatures I have the feeling that we get draws that are too "fair", e.g. just a bunch of creatures that don't interact well with Combo or Control (YP with just a bunch of creatures in hand is horrible). Clique hopefully solves this problem by interacting with the opponent's hand as well as by sometimes filtering our triple-DRS or double-YP-draw (or other awkward stuff)

4. It's a good replacement against Miracles for my fourth cut stifle (Miracle Trigger and top shenanigans). They can bounce it with Karakas of course, so I might reconsider cutting all Wastelands against Miracles. Does anybody have experience how good Clique is if they can still bounce it the whole time? I still imagine it's pretty decent. That said I'm really not that concerned about Miracles with my list.

Edit: To the BUG vs Grixis: I also really like Bolt over Decay. As I said, when you try a list like 3 u-seas 2 volcs 1 trop with 4 drs 4 delver 2 angler 2 tnn it should be super fine, I imagine the 12 creatures are more than enough because your opponents often times simply can't deal with your creatures.

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Why would you cut Wastelands against Miracles? Land hate is one of the paths to victory against that deck (or it might just be me). Being able to cut down their UU or WW is huge. Besides that your Daze and Pierce will get infinite more value with a few Wastelands.


@Maharis
It's possible to cast Tombstalkers with 3 Sea 2 Volcanic and 1 Badlands. I used to play this before Anglers were printed and it was really stable on the mana. So you could move the 1 Trop to the side for Shaman and perhaps some green cards. Your match pre board will be worse becouse of this though, like Dredge and Reanimate. But then again, who still plays those decks? Meta dependend.

Far // Away is pritty instresting. Not sure if it's worth running main deck though. Think I rather try 4 Bolt and 1 Dismember (replacement of Forked Bolt becouse of the Eldraze rise) as removal. How did you like the card?

Anyway, nice report. Always nice to read those.

@eyeownyu
Cutting pyromancers is I think mainly becouse having multiple is not that great. Besides that it's a weaker topdeck later on in the game since it needs spells to fuel it.
The main reason why I cut them is becouse I ended up playing alot of spells before I dropped the Pyromancers on the field instead of dropping the Pyromancer and then play out everything. In my case more Anglers work better becouse of this.

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Originally Posted by Draggo

Why would you cut Wastelands against Miracles? Land hate is one of the paths to victory against that deck (or it might just be me). Being able to cut down their UU or WW is huge. Besides that your Daze and Pierce will get infinite more value with a few Wastelands.

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I board out the Dazes and I play no Spell Pierces. My 3 Stifles I leave in for the Miracle triggers. Against the Miracle list without cavern of souls and Karakas I have the experience they just fetch all their basics, so your Wasteland is dead most of the time, even though they might eventually play a random land you can waste.
Since my plan is to rip their hands to shred with Therapy and have high impact spells like Abrupt Decay and Virtue's Ruin I just play a more midrange-goodstuff approach against them.
But it entirely depends on your card choices, in a deck with Spell Pierce and Stifle cutting them off mana is a good path, too (though that can be accomplished with Stifle).

agrippa, what's your sb plan against nic fit? I'm playing the non stifle version of grixis, but would like to hear your thoughts.

I ran into it in a weekly this week and it felt really awkward. On one hand I want to keep forces to stop veterans. On the other hand I want to keep some form of burn to kill resolved DRS, but that's really all it hits.

Went 1-1-1 at a weekly today.

List:

4x DRS
4x Delver
3x Young P
1x Clique
2x Gurmag

4x BS
4x Ponder
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Probe
4x FoW
4x Daze
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Forked Bolt
1x Spell Pierce

3x Volc
2x Sea
2x Trop
4x WL
7x Fetches

SB:
1x Dread of Night
1x Grim Lavamancer
2x Pyroblast
1x Darkblast
1x Ancient Grudge
1x Null Rod
1x Pithing Needle
2x Cabal
1x Surgical
1x Winter Orb
1x K-Command
1x Fire Covenant
1x Grafdigger cage

R1 vs Funky UR Painter list- Win the Die Roll
G1- I get him down via DRS and some Zombie fish slams. He has 1 turn left and has a Grindstone on board. He plays painter, I force, he brainstorms and forces back. I Daze, but in paying for the daze, he can no longer activate Grindstone. I win next turn with Young P, Fish, and friend beats

Dropped Dazes, kept forces, and brought in all my artifact hate

G2- Only play that stood out for me here is him having a painter on board (naming blue). I try to play a brainstorm, he in response fetches, I respond to the fetch by bolting his painter and he contemplates forcing, but doesn't. I had a cabal sitting in my hand, I think him fetching in response to my BS should have screamed pyroblast, but I was too hesitant to fire it off. I end up winning, but I think playing that cabal naming pyroblast (which he ended up having two of) was the play. I think I was too scared to whiff on Cabal w.o having Young P for value.

1-0

R2 Mirror vs my best friend- Win the Die Roll
G1- Opening hand was disgusting. I have a DRS, WL, Land, Daze, Force, Delver, Brainstorm. Game doesn't go very long. Land DRS, daze his T1 play. WL his land and play Delver. He plays a DRS I think, and I flip my delver off a bolt, use it to pop his DRS. Pretty much all she wrote.

Dropped Daze and 4x Forces, brought in fire covenant, dark blast, pyroblast, cabals, grim lavamancer, k-command - I wanted Surgical too, but not sure what to take out for it, maybe a single probe?

G2- He has a stacked hand this time. I probe him after he mulls to 6 and I see: Fire Covenant, BS, Bolt, Surgical, fetch, Sea. I have 2x DRS a Young P, 2x WL, Fetch, BS. I draw go for a bit looking for some form of protection for my threats. He sticks a threat first (Young P) I misplay as I normally don't play with Abrupt Decay (Forgot about the cannot be countered clause) and I play around a Daze (lol) and he gets some tokens off a Young P I could've killed earlier.Not sure if this would've changed the outcome of the game because he had a second Young P. He surgicals my BS. I flip a delver off a ponder, and he cliques the ponder away.

G3- Draw, we maybe got 1 or 2 turns before hitting time.

1-0-1

R3 vs Nic Fit- Lose the Die Roll
G1- 2 Siege Rhinos > Me. I scoop early

+Surgical +2 Cabals + Null Rod +Ancient Grudge + Needle +Winter Orb +K-Command +Cage
-4x Daze -Forked Bolt -3 Lightning Bolts -1 Probe

G2- I Cabal naming Vet Explorer T1, and whiff. I write down his cards but I think am just tired from a long day of work because I hit him with a second cabal a few turns later, taking a deed when he had 2 windsweapt heaths in hand still (I assumed he had played them earlier). I land a Zombie Fish and 2x DRS fairly early and close out the game quickly.

+2 Daze -2 Decay

G3- Super grindy game. He's on the play again, T1 Vet explorer. I force it. Start my turn off by Surgical-ing his Vets. I play DRS. He's left with a hand of Deed, Zenith, Plains, Rhino, DRS. He decays my DRS after I use it to pump out a YoungP. He stumbles on lands (I WL a few) but he gets deed out before I can find more countermagic. I play a few cantrips and he pops Deed when I bolt his DRS. At one point in the game I could've played a Zombie Fish earlier, but for some reason held it a turn. He's able to get a Rhino swing in as a result of me waiting a turn. I stabilize on 1 with finding a DRS to protect me from his DRS as he has been failing to find black to drain me out and we end in rounds. I concede to him so he can get some store credit. He was at 22 and I was at 1. I maybe could have clawed my way back into the game with my DRS given infinite time, but I just gave it to him. No sense in us both being losers lol.

All in all, still very rusty from taking ~3 months off of magic. :( Feelsbadman. Also fairly unsure on how to board vs Nic Fit... Bolts really only hit DRS, but it feels bad if it's all I can hit. Abrupt Decays also don't hit much outside of DRS. Maybe worth it to keep in just for that purpose? Maybe keep bolts but drops decays?

Going to tweak the SB a bit to this: dread, grim, pyroblast x2, darkblast, ancient grudge, null rod, pithing needle, cabal x2, surgical x2, winter orb, k-command, EE

MB Tweaks: Spell pierce feels very useless in my local meta (very creature heavy). I took it out for another Forked Bolt.

For those of you newer to the deck, and interested in an overview of Delver decks.

New episode of Legacy's Allure now available! Featured guest Dylan Donegan discusses Delver of Secrets and tempo decks.

YouTube: https://youtu.be/HkQi2NrkY-E
Podcast Archive: https://archive.org/details/LegacysA...thDylanDonegan

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Originally Posted by Draggo

@Maharis
It's possible to cast Tombstalkers with 3 Sea 2 Volcanic and 1 Badlands. I used to play this before Anglers were printed and it was really stable on the mana. So you could move the 1 Trop to the side for Shaman and perhaps some green cards. Your match pre board will be worse becouse of this though, like Dredge and Reanimate. But then again, who still plays those decks? Meta dependend.

Far // Away is pritty instresting. Not sure if it's worth running main deck though. Think I rather try 4 Bolt and 1 Dismember (replacement of Forked Bolt becouse of the Eldraze rise) as removal. How did you like the card?

Anyway, nice report. Always nice to read those.

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Thank you.

I only cast Far/Away once in the tournament, and it was to kill a Stormchaser Mage, but I wanted it many other times, like when I was facing down TNN with Batterskull on it or Griselbrand after I extracted all S&Ts. I am a fan of modal spells though so I am somewhat biased. Bouncing my own YP in response to removal never happened, unfortunately.

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Originally Posted by Jaytron

what's your sb plan against nic fit? I'm playing the non stifle version of grixis, but would like to hear your thoughts.

I ran into it in a weekly this week and it felt really awkward. On one hand I want to keep forces to stop veterans. On the other hand I want to keep some form of burn to kill resolved DRS, but that's really all it hits.

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When talking about Nic-Fit it doesn't necessarily specify what list your opponent runs, there's almost as many versions as there's of Delver: Junk-Nic-Fit (Knight of the Reliquary, Siege Rhino), Jund Nic-Fit (Grove+Punishing Fire, Primeval Titan, Kessig Wolf Run), classic Nic-Fit (Hymn to Tourach, Liliana), BUG-Nic-Fit (Birthing Pod, Strix, Shardless Agent) or 4-color-Nic-Fit with Knight and Grove.
Also some people run Sylvan Library with Toxic Deluge, others run Sensei's Divining Top with Pernicious Deed (so you don't hit you card fliter).

It seems that your opponent played Knight and Pernicous Deed, but no Grove.
With my deck (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post931068) I'd sideboard:
-4 Wasteland (he plays a lot of basics, I want to keep him off explorer with Stifle)
-4 Daze (getting bad reeeally quickly).
-2 Lightning Bolt (as you said: not that great, I'd rather throw in my YPs aggressively once I've generated 2-3 tokens so I can attack with those later)
-1 Forked Bolt (he hardly has creatures with 1 power, I'd rather kill a Siege Rhino with 2 Tokens blocking, a Titania, Thragtusk or a small KotR)
+1x Pithing Needle (good against Knight, Pernicious Deed, Top)
+1x Invasive Surgery (Toxic Deluge [propably doesn't have any though], Green Sun's Zenith is his best spell)
+4x Cabal Therapy (Get him! Name the cards you're afraid of and can't deal with your current hand. Good targets are 4-ofs like Veteran Explorer, Green Sun's Zenith or KotR)
+3x Abrupt Decay (good against Knight)
+1x Virtue's Ruin (good against Knight, Sigarda, Siege Rhino)
+1x Tropical Island (KotR-versions sometimes run wastelands so they can waste out their opponent)

Note that I'm actually leaving in the Force of Wills. Sometimes they run 1xCavern of Soul, sure, but their creature types are very diverse. Killing especially their sweepers can prevent them from 2-for-1-ing you, so it's not even like you'd have better card advantage without FoW. You lacking need of lands makes up for the disadvantage.

Also while Krosan Grip can be good against Top and Pernicous Deed it just has too few targets. Since they play no card selection it could very well be that they just don't draw a card I want to target the entire game.

Taking a look at your list and sb I'd suggest the following:
-1 Spell Pierce (can catch him off surprise, but once he knows you play it he can play around it rather easily)
-3 Wasteland (see above, I'd leave 1 in against unexpected stuff and because your curve goes up a bit)
-4 Daze (dead too early, they can play around it when they know you have it because of Therapy)
+1x Grim Lavamancer (careful with your x-1s, they propably have Golgari Charm in the board)
+1x Pithing Needle (KotR, Scavenging Ooze, Top, Deed)
+2x Cabal
+1x Winter Orb (their spells cost a lot of mana, should be fine)
+1x K-Command (2-for-1s are great in this matchup)
+1x Fire Covenant (x-for-1s are even greater)
+1x Grafdigger cage (stops Green Sun's Zenith and Cabal Therapy flashback. Why do you run this card when you play Therapy yourself?)

This matchup is all about high impact spells. Soft-counters are often dead because your opponent can play around them, so you want to trade with him and get card advantage, the fact that you can filter through your deck better with cantrips should give you a good chance in the long term.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Agrippa91

When talking about Nic-Fit it doesn't necessarily specify what list your opponent runs, there's almost as many versions as there's of Delver: Junk-Nic-Fit (Knight of the Reliquary, Siege Rhino), Jund Nic-Fit (Grove+Punishing Fire, Primeval Titan, Kessig Wolf Run), classic Nic-Fit (Hymn to Tourach, Liliana), BUG-Nic-Fit (Birthing Pod, Strix, Shardless Agent) or 4-color-Nic-Fit with Knight and Grove.
Also some people run Sylvan Library with Toxic Deluge, others run Sensei's Divining Top with Pernicious Deed (so you don't hit you card fliter).

It seems that your opponent played Knight and Pernicous Deed, but no Grove.
With my deck (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post931068) I'd sideboard:
-4 Wasteland (he plays a lot of basics, I want to keep him off explorer with Stifle)
-4 Daze (getting bad reeeally quickly).
-2 Lightning Bolt (as you said: not that great, I'd rather throw in my YPs aggressively once I've generated 2-3 tokens so I can attack with those later)
-1 Forked Bolt (he hardly has creatures with 1 power, I'd rather kill a Siege Rhino with 2 Tokens blocking, a Titania, Thragtusk or a small KotR)
+1x Pithing Needle (good against Knight, Pernicious Deed, Top)
+1x Invasive Surgery (Toxic Deluge [propably doesn't have any though], Green Sun's Zenith is his best spell)
+4x Cabal Therapy (Get him! Name the cards you're afraid of and can't deal with your current hand. Good targets are 4-ofs like Veteran Explorer, Green Sun's Zenith or KotR)
+3x Abrupt Decay (good against Knight)
+1x Virtue's Ruin (good against Knight, Sigarda, Siege Rhino)
+1x Tropical Island (KotR-versions sometimes run wastelands so they can waste out their opponent)

Note that I'm actually leaving in the Force of Wills. Sometimes they run 1xCavern of Soul, sure, but their creature types are very diverse. Killing especially their sweepers can prevent them from 2-for-1-ing you, so it's not even like you'd have better card advantage without FoW. You lacking need of lands makes up for the disadvantage.

Also while Krosan Grip can be good against Top and Pernicous Deed it just has too few targets. Since they play no card selection it could very well be that they just don't draw a card I want to target the entire game.

Taking a look at your list and sb I'd suggest the following:
-1 Spell Pierce (can catch him off surprise, but once he knows you play it he can play around it rather easily)
-3 Wasteland (see above, I'd leave 1 in against unexpected stuff and because your curve goes up a bit)
-4 Daze (dead too early, they can play around it when they know you have it because of Therapy)
+1x Grim Lavamancer (careful with your x-1s, they propably have Golgari Charm in the board)
+1x Pithing Needle (KotR, Scavenging Ooze, Top, Deed)
+2x Cabal
+1x Winter Orb (their spells cost a lot of mana, should be fine)
+1x K-Command (2-for-1s are great in this matchup)
+1x Fire Covenant (x-for-1s are even greater)
+1x Grafdigger cage (stops Green Sun's Zenith and Cabal Therapy flashback. Why do you run this card when you play Therapy yourself?)

This matchup is all about high impact spells. Soft-counters are often dead because your opponent can play around them, so you want to trade with him and get card advantage, the fact that you can filter through your deck better with cantrips should give you a good chance in the long term.

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I didn't see a knight in all our 3 games, I think he was playing "Rhino-Fit"

I also liked leaving in Force, because you absolutely have to stop a veteran explorer.

Yeah I'm honestly not sure how I feel about cage when I play cabals. However I only play 2, so maybe the chance of non-bo isn't too bad.

Thanks a bunch for your feedback!

@Agrippa: As a Junk/Rhino Fit pilot I can tell you KotR is not a card the deck runs, at all. We just jam Rhino (or Sigarda) and smash face, all else is fodder. This mostly b/c having 3/4 Abrupt Decay is considered a removal suite in Legacy. That's what makes your own Gurmag Anglers so good - hardly anyone plays answers to it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Echelon

@Agrippa: As a Junk/Rhino Fit pilot I can tell you KotR is not a card the deck runs, at all. We just jam Rhino (or Sigarda) and smash face, all else is fodder. This mostly b/c having 3/4 Abrupt Decay is considered a removal suite in Legacy. That's what makes your own Gurmag Anglers so good - hardly anyone plays answers to it.

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Yeah, Zombie Fish was my lord and savior those games.

Multiple Rhinos are super hard to deal with though. It felt like an uphill battle, all of the games.

Ah, sorry, I had a more midrangey version of Nic-Fit in mind that doesn't depend on Veteran Explorer like this one:

http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=8795&d=250209&f=LE

I also had a local in mind that ran KotR to get Grove for Punishing Fire (he was running 4 colors).
Well, given the insight that others prefer to go bigger it would propably be better to leave in the Wastelands to stop him from landing the big spells, unless Daze you're guaranteed that you get something out of it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Agrippa91

Ah, sorry, I had a more midrangey version of Nic-Fit in mind that doesn't depend on Veteran Explorer like this one:

http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=8795&d=250209&f=LE

I also had a local in mind that ran KotR to get Grove for Punishing Fire (he was running 4 colors).
Well, given the insight that others prefer to go bigger it would propably be better to leave in the Wastelands to stop him from landing the big spells, unless Daze you're guaranteed that you get something out of it.

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I think this is similar to the deck I played against. It seems that some number of WLs are still valuable here?