[OLD] UGw Threshold

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Originally Posted by Happy Gilmore

Its amazing just how bad it gets post board...Like I said we should really focus on that for sure. Also I wonder what you guys think about this board.

2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
3 Naturalize
3 Crusade
3 Stifle
1 Mystic Enforcer

with 1 Sensei's Divining top in the main over a Portent. The idea is to board in the two tops and 3 counterbalances vs. combo, and the mirror. I havn't done the testing yet but it seems like it would nutz if it resolves. Chalice for 1 and 2 that is one sided seems prity good to me. :tongue:

(The idea is not really mine. This is something all the thresh players in my meta have been thinking about.)

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That's a pretty cool idea to tell the truth. I should give it a try, as siding in those cards can make it very one-sided against Hanni Fish, Threshold mirror, and most Combo decks. Counterbalance/Top can hit so much right now, it's just crazy, even with Top.


@Bardo: What card do you think is the most important card in the Threshold mirror? I've noticed that Meddling Mage in the early game can disrupt everything, and Mystic Enforcer in the mid-late game can do a ton of damage.

I noticed this because every game I won, I won because my opponent's Mage didnt resolve early enough to matter, and by the time it resolved, I had more creatures out than my opponent does or I won the stalemate with Enforcer. At the Monster Den tournament, I forgot to mention that his Meddling Mages didnt resolve early game because I was more worried it might disrupt my game plan. By the time he played another Mage, I was in a better position, like I had more creatures out or Enforcer was casted right after that. That night, I playtested with my teammate right after the tournament whom was playing Thresh (Your build, card for card), and I let Mage resolve. Guess who won that one? He did. He chanted Portent with the first Mage and he dismantled my card quality, and due to the lack of card quality, he casted a 2nd one on Enforcer. I realized this that night.

Did some testing against Goblins. I really like Crusades right now, but you obviously have to protect it with Stifles and Needles or else Goblins can wreck your mana base. Mystic Enforcers are getting better actually for me. I board them in when I'm on the play since I'm the first to get land drops out. I'm pretty sure I'm going to run 4 Crusades. 3 Never seemed to be too much from my testing, as I alwasy wanted more so I can keep my opponent in check.

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Originally Posted by Anti~American4621

Did some testing against Goblins. I really like Crusades right now, but you obviously have to protect it with Stifles and Needles or else Goblins can wreck your mana base. Mystic Enforcers are getting better actually for me. I board them in when I'm on the play since I'm the first to get land drops out. I'm pretty sure I'm going to run 4 Crusades. 3 Never seemed to be too much from my testing, as I alwasy wanted more so I can keep my opponent in check.

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Why not play something like Dueling Grounds in the place of Tivadar's Crusades (teh Tech from the Bardo against Machinus, UGW Grow against Mono R Vial Goblins article on Starcity)... so long they are working fine for me...

I'll briefly put up some pros and cons:

+ Doesn't require any double colored mana costs
+ Permanent Solution for attacking Hordes
+ More versatile (board them in Vs Swarm Aggro too [Elgin Zoo anyone?])
+ Frees up one sideboard slot as you don't want more than 1 (so you SB 3)
+ Even an untreshed Enforcer is now HUGE
+ Hard to remove if unexpected (and if the gobs player sides in disenchant effects you're happy too)

- Not so good when loosing ******** (still decent though)
- No answer to SGC

I think this sideboard would be pretty good at beating Gobs while still not being too narrow:

2x Blue Elemetal Blast ->in
2x Hydroblast ->in
3x Dueling Grounds ->in

3x Jotun Grunt (hot or not to side in?) ->in
2x Tormod's Crypt / Loaming Shaman ->in (the shaman, not the crypt)

2x Ravages of War
1x Armageddon

That would be a total of 12 cards to side in... I am not playing a conventional ***** list but I think that a combination of Forces, Dazes and Predicts alongside the Meddling Mages would be decent to side out.

C'mon, give the crapy rare a try :wink:

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@Bardo: What card do you think is the most important card in the Threshold mirror? I've noticed that Meddling Mage in the early game can disrupt everything, and Mystic Enforcer in the mid-late game can do a ton of damage.

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Sorry for the delay in answer this. I saw it and then forgot about it.

Most important cards in the mirror:

Mystic Enforcer
Tormod's Crypt / Loaming Shaman / etc.
Engineered Explosives

(in no particular order)

Mage is hot and cold. It's conditionally very strong, but the best cards are unconditionally good.

Re: Dueling Grounds. I really like the idea, but I haven't actually tested it yet. Seems sweet, if you can around SGC and Incinerator for your Enforcer.

I see Dueling Grounds quite promising. All you need to do is answer SCG and Incenerator, which can easily be done. The colors for it is also rather easier to get hold of as well.

@Bardo: I can see why cards like Loaming Shaman and Enforcer would dominate the mirror. I had to watch an entire game where people had to fight over the resolution of Loaming Shamans and Mystic Enforcers just to get an edge. People are also starting to run Grunt alongside with Shaman just to get around Graveyard hate. Thanks for answering.

I'd like to post the list I've been running and testing with for a while now. It lacks mental note, which I've tried and found to be a liability mid to late-game, and has maindeck stifle instead of pithing needle. Feel free to pick this list apart, but it's been working very well for me.

Creatures: 10
4 Nimble mongoose
4 Werebear
2 Mystic enforcer

Counters: 13
4 Force of will
3 Daze
3 Counterspell
3 Stifle

Removal: 6
4 Swords to plowshares
2 Piracy charm

Cantrips: 14
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum visions
3 Portent
3 Predict

Lands: 17
3 Tropical island
3 Tundra
3 Flooded strand
2 Polluted delta
2 Windswept heath
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Nantuko monastery


Board:
2 Jotun grunt
2 Tormod's crypt
3 Krosan grip
4 Meddling mage
4 Hydroblast


Recently tested matchups:

Boros aggro: 6-2 preboard, 5-0 postboard
-seems kinda rediculous looking back on it, though in more than one of the preboard games I won, I was down to 3 or less life and he attempted to topdeck burn for the win.
-The postboard games he didn't have any crypts and I had hydroblast, so it was kind of unfair. Even so, I never went below 10 life.

Rockin' funkbrew: 5-1 preboard
-These were the most hilarious games I've ever played with thresh. There were games where I needed to topdeck an enforcer FTW and did. There were games where he needed to topdeck a deed FTW and did. I got hymned twice and duressed 3 times in a game and won. Fun stuff.
-I know this isn't a well-established deck, but I wanted one that seemed to have a good thresh matchup (deed+discard+pro-green+islandwalk seemed strong). Turns out thresh stepped up to the challenge.

BW aggro-control (build of my own): 6-2 preboard
-I would have lost a number of these if it wasn't for piracy charm ripping into confidant, spectral lynx, and mother of runes.


There were many other matches I played, but only once or twice per deck. Overall this version has outperformed, at least preboard, any other version I've tried. Maybe it's just playstyle, I don't know.

As a disclaimer, I realize I haven't extensively tested any of the matchups listed above, and in two I haven't tried postboard yet (where their grave hate will get me). Still, what I'm trying to get across is that this list has been kind to me. What do you guys think?

Oh, and I had a quick 6-person tournament at my college and wrote up a quick report on it. The decklist is, mostly, the same. You can find it here:

http://com5.runboard.com/bthelegacyharbor.f6.t56

I'd really only like to comment on the land count, as I think the deck needs 18 lands to function fully and consistenly. I also tried a MD monestary, and it could be good, but it usually had a big old waste target painted on its face. Also, it made colorless mana, which was a pain to find a use for.

I'd comment on Piracy Charm, but my sentiments would be less than supportive of it.

Feel free to comment on piracy charm, but I've found it quite good. I've always thought this deck needed extra removal to combat aggro decks (since they usually are pretty tough matchups), but I always wanted removal that wasn't dead against combo.

In the report I have linked above, I ran 2 condemn and they were superb. However, against creature-light decks (or decks where the creatures do more than swing) the condemns have little function beyond gaining me life on occasion.

When I saw piracy charm I realized I had a new candidate. It's problem, as you may see, is that while it does a lot of things for the deck it doesn't do any of them terribly well. In the end, the versatility just proved too good to pass up.

The most common use for it, of course, is to kill random confidants, lackeys, and mana elves/birds. However, it can also act as a pseudo burn spell by giving one of my creatures +2 power, hopefully for the win. It can make one of my creatures unblockable too, if they happen to have islands.

Finally, it becomes useful against control or combo by forcing the discard of a card. While I spend a card and mana to force them to discard their worst card, it can often pay off. Firstly, if they are in topdeck mode I can force them to discard a card before they can play it. Secondly, dropping us both down a card can be beneficial by slowing my opponent down. The extra time (plus an extra card in the grave) can actually make beatdown-mode easier for the deck.

Really what I'm saying is, test the card before you dismiss it. If you test and don't like it, then so be it.

As for nantuko monastery, I've seriously considered cutting him. He can be great in certain cases, but in others he's downright terrible. I had to mull one of my games against Funkbrew because I had one land and it produced colorless mana...sigh. But still, monastery quickens the clock once you stabilize and can act as an additonal blocker if you need it. Plus, I have dreams of casting piracy charm on monastery and shredding a mystic enforcer (go random scenario that will never ever happen!).

Edit: Right, the land count. With monastery I think you may be right in that I need 18 lands. However, the times when I feel starved for land are very few and far between. Remember, portent is a lot better than mental note in finding land when you need it. Oh, and by the way, them targetting monastery with wasteland is great for me, since I then get to keep my colored mana. And yeah, stifle saves the day as well.

I've played everywhere from 17 to 19 lands, depending on Cantrip config, and while 17 was awesome for speed, I always felt like a single Wasteland would wreck my day. Consider Monestary -> Fetchland, and you'd be much better off. Of course, I've never run more than 2x Counterspell, either, so that could be a good slot for the 18th land.

Really? I've always found the counterspells to be stellar with this cantrip configuration. This build tends to make it to the late-game more often than MN versions, so having a hard counter for only UU (instead of 3UU) is really needed. That said, 4 was a liability as well.

I just played some more games today, and I think I'm going to do the monastery->fetch switch you guys are suggesting. I realize it doesn't matter too much, but would you recommend another blue fetch or my third heath?

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Originally Posted by Solpugid

Really? I've always found the counterspells to be stellar with this cantrip configuration. This build tends to make it to the late-game more often than MN versions, so having a hard counter for only UU (instead of 3UU) is really needed. That said, 4 was a liability as well.

I just played some more games today, and I think I'm going to do the monastery->fetch switch you guys are suggesting. I realize it doesn't matter too much, but would you recommend another blue fetch or my third heath?

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heath..gives you 4 ways to find your basic forest.

Monestary as one of your 17 lands is extremely balzy. I run them in the board as a two of for the mirror and against dystopia and random agro. But I would never replace a colored source in the main for one.

Why the fuck would anyone in their right mind ever run a basic Forest? I've heard the argument that all your Trops could be Wasted somehow because they resolved a Crucible or something and you don't run counters or Pithing Needles or anything, but that argument was conceived of and promoted by retards. Maybe I'm just inordinately lucky, but everytime I borrow someone's Gro deck to playtest I get the most amazing hands of;


Daze
Force of Will
Swords to Plowshares
Brainstorm
Serum Visions
Predict
FOREST! LAWLZ!


And I have to muck what would've been a hand of classical gas if that had been a land you could actually, you know, use.


I assume the Hatfields do it because they've got some basic forest art they really, really like, but what's everyone else's excuse?

Well I was watching a guy play against Allan (scrumdogg) with no basic forests and heres the play eot mental note. Drop trop in gy. then Allan Extirpated the tropical.

Then the correct play is not to run terrible cards like Mental Note.

i dont know about that. I don't think the 17 land build can have a basic forest in it. If a player played 18-19 lands, they probably should run a basic forest.

While I agree that the 15-blue source build I was running was balzy (read: pretty much retarded) I rarely had any trouble with it. Assuming I switch out monastery for a heath, I will have even fewer troubles.

The reason the forest is in there is so I can have some permanent way of dropping creatures in the face of wasteland, though I suppose outside a lock it shouldn't be necassary. The other reason is that its an unhinged forest, which is just plain hot.

Now that you mention it, I suppose it doesn't need to be there. Maybe I'll stick the fourth trop in there tomorrow. If I do, I may decide to keep monastery...it really has been awesome for me.

And while I wouldn't go so far as to say mental note sucks, I will say I think the deck is better off without it. Portent is the greatest trash card ever.

This deck only needs 16 Blue Sources to function well. Adding the extra Forest is just there to fight Wasteland, incase if they'd rather play that Needle on Vial rather than Wasteland/Ports.

This deck however is fine with 16 Lands at least. 18 is just there usually when you play less cantrips and need a land in the opening hand to function through. 17 is just there because you probably 12 Cantrips, so digging for lands and opening hands would be much easier to play. IMO, think somewhere between 16-18 is the right number.

Forest can force a mulligan if it's your only land, even with the card draw. Mental note is perfect in red thresh, but not meant for the more controlling white build since you drop most of your guys late game anyway.

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Originally Posted by Awesomator

Forest can force a mulligan if it's your only land, even with the card draw. Mental note is perfect in red thresh, but not meant for the more controlling white build since you drop most of your guys late game anyway.

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Red Thresh isnt really more aggressive by nature. Some Red Thresh decks plays the Control Role the best, but only in terms of Board Control. Burn can be used as reach, but is just really crappy against the mirror in general. If you look at all the Red Thresh builds that have become successful, only Pat McGregor's (SARCASTO) build has done well being the aggressor. The builds that did better than that build such as Wastedlife's (11 Burn Cards), and the Hatfield (4 Burn Cards) version love to play Control. Of course, Wastedlife's build is somewhat aggressive, but it's an aggressive deck that hardly runs out of fuel, and still maintains a better mana base than the generic Red Thresh because of it's high cantrip count. Mental Note is what makes Threshold aggressive generally. Mental Note Thresh is still a good deck. Ask Dan Spero (Bardo), he'll even say his deck embraces the more aggressive side of Threshold, and still maintain good control over the game. Running Mental Note alongside with Threshold creatures and a high density of control, is basically like the 12 LD Cards in old Extended Red Deck Wins. It bashes the opponent's face while using all of it's control to exhaust the opponent.

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Originally Posted by Anti~American4621

This deck only needs 16 Blue Sources to function well. Adding the extra Forest is just there to fight Wasteland, incase if they'd rather play that Needle on Vial rather than Wasteland/Ports.

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We just went over this. Why is this more relevant than having to mulligan because you open a hand with Forest as your only land? I'd rather run a goddamned Breeding Pool.