That is a really cool program, make sure you test out this list http://www.planetmtg.de/articles/artikel.html?id=3408
Also, does the program factor in mulligans, and then it draws 6 then 5 or anything like that?
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That is a really cool program, make sure you test out this list http://www.planetmtg.de/articles/artikel.html?id=3408
Also, does the program factor in mulligans, and then it draws 6 then 5 or anything like that?
...Even computer Knows that Wraiths suck balls.Quote:
Originally Posted by ACME_Myst
Anyways, nice Idea. As a disruption piece, perhaps you should consider 8 blasts and 4 Swarms. And can you find out the number of spare BWishes that can answer random things and how much mana you have then?
EDIT: Also, it seems the program does not count belcher numbers. This may matter if you are running bayous in the list. How do you intend to solve this problem?
Hey, just a few random ideas I am going to throw out about this deck, I have been having problems with B/W Confidant/Deadguy Ale type decks and the occasional Pox deck. And the matches get exceedingly worse when Engineered Plague comes in. What do you guys think about Wheel of Fate as a 1x of wish target? It seems like it would be good against heavy discard and generally they dont put you on that fast of a clock in Legacy terms. I am going to try it out this week and see if it works, probably to slow, but might be very good.
Also, in a format with a lot of Chalices and 3Spheres and the random affinity deck, given the proper meta, does anyone think Seeds of Innocence would be a good 1x of wish target? I love Shattering Spree but I have seen double 3Sphere and it is sick. Anyway, I know these are sub-optimal wish targets but I am just curious if anyone has tried them out and how it worked.
Ok, here's an update on the program:
The current version can be found here:
http://www.savefile.com/files/1378005
It's full of bugs (like not discarding eot), but it works most of the time. I will, however, not continue work on this project. Why not?
Another member from these boards (SnakeEater) contacted me, and we have both agreed to completely rewrite the code. The endresult will hopefully be a computer program that's not only able to pilot Belcher, but any combodeck we throw at it. So TES, SI, Iggy etc might all be possible, in time. When I said the Belcher program would be able to calculate the fastest list possible, I won't have to tell you the possibilities that this new program might create.
For those interested in this project, any updates will probably be given their own thread somewhere on these boards.
acme can u post the txt file with it so we may change the decklist around thx
18 person tournament Bethlehem PA
Finished 5th 3-1 (did not advance due to pairings)
Round 1 Vial Goblins 2-1
G-1 Belch turn 2
G-2 keep a hand with Belcher, and not enough to use it. Piledriver death
G-3 round 2 ETW for 14 tokens, Traded guys and round 7-8 for another 8 tokens.
Round 2- Faerie Stompy. 1-2 (record 1-1)
G-1 Chalice for 1 and counter magic keep me off my game.
G-2 12 Goblin tokens turn 2 protected by a pyroblast for good luck.
G-3 Chalice for 0 and 1 turn 1 makes it ugly for me.
Round 3- Burn 2-0(Record 2-1)
G-1 Belch for 20 round 1
G-2 14 tokens round 2
Round 4- TES 2-1 (record 3-1)
G-1 Belch turn 1 for the win
G-2 TES tendrils turn 2 for the win (Im one turn slow)
G-3 opponent and I mull, Turn 2 12 Goblin tokens by me for the win.
Out of it by pairings.
Name Qty Sideboard
Taiga 2
Elvish Spirit Guide 4
Simian Spirit Guide 4
Tinder Wall 4
Blood Moon 2 1
Wild Cantor 2
Goblin Charbelcher 4
Burning Wish 4
Empty the Warrens 3 1
Rite of Flame 3 1
Land Grant 4
Seething Song 4
Lotus Petal 4
Lion's Eye Diamond 4
Chrome Mox 4
Desperate Ritual 4
Pyroblast 2
Red Elemental Blast 2 1
Infernal Tutor 0 1
Shattering Spree 0 4
Simplify 0 1
Cave-In 0 1
Pyroclasm 0 1
Deconstruct 0 1
Ignite Memories 0 1
Goblin War Strike 0 1
A few points I'd like to share:Quote:
Originally Posted by C.P.
First: Do not run blue in Belcher. It's terrible. There's only one blue card worth considering and that's Diminishing Returns in the board as a wish target. Blue has no valuable acceleration in a deck aimed to win on the first turn. Pact of Negation is another wasted slot. Every single card in your opening draw is of value, especially acceleration, and you should not waste it on something reactive until post-board (where Blasts come in).
Second: Street Wraith is a fine selection, even though I don't play it. It far from sucks balls. Playing what is essentially a fifty-six card deck is good for what you need - to increase your chances starting or drawing into a win condition. Although some people don't like it, and I can see why.
I'm working on a list right now I plan on playing in Virginia and Massachusetts in the coming month. I'll post it soon.
this is the Belcher list I want to build in the next month:
4 Charbelcher
4 Burning Wish
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Land Grant
1 Taiga
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Rites of Flame
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song
4 Tinder Wall
4 Wild Cantor
4 Pyroblast
Sideboard
4 Shattering Spree
4 Xantid Swarm
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Goblin War Strike
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Simplify
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Cave-In or 1 Pyroclasm
Looks pretty standart, like a build for a blind meta,
In my experience, the fastest R/g list possible is Serum Powder + Leyline of the Meek, finding Belcher more often or Time Walking Goblins leads to the quickest possible kills. Living Wish and Storm Entity is the only other configuration that probably competes for speed, since Wish + LED into a Draw 7 usually takes a turn off the clock.Quote:
Originally Posted by ACME_Myst
A few points:Quote:
Originally Posted by BreathWeapon
Serum Powder is essentially useless - it provides nothing proactive for you to win the game. You just might continue opening your hand with one and all you're doing is resetting a hand that could do the exact same thing if you open with a win condition or mulligan the proper way. Either way you cut it, a Force of Will is a Force of Will and a Thoughtseize is a Thoughtseize. Serum Powder might give you outs, but it is essentially a dead draw when you attempt to combo.
Leyline of the Meek is again - another non-proactive card. It's not business. You'll open hand it, drop it, and then what? It's like mulliganing to six and hoping for a turn one EtW. What if you open with Belcher? Imagine drawing into this. It's terrible. You need business spells - maintain the balance of acceleration the way it is.
Living Wish is another bad choice. All you need is Burning Wish. That card nets you so many outs (whether it be an Empty the Warrens or Diminishing Returns), it is vital in trying to win the game. Living Wish is slow, so I have no idea where you conceived "speed" from it in a deck that doesn't need to cast a creature that can be: Swords to Plowshared, Shriekmawed, or chumped until they find an answer. It's not a bad choice, but I'd rather have 12 or 14 1/1 tokens out than one 8/8 or 10/10. More people play Plowshares than Stifle.
Infernal Tutor and Tendrils in the board...but you have no Bayou and are only able to cast them off of Cantors, LEDs, and Petals. How has that been working for you? I'd imagine that having that Bayou would help.Quote:
Originally Posted by n00per
1) Serum Powder is a free 6 card mulligan, if you can resolve a win condition in the first 6 card hand, you can keep it, if you can't resolve a win condition in the first 6 card hand, you can "mulligan" it for a 7 card hand. Either way, Serum Powder is virtual card advantage in a deck that mulligans aggressively, if you find it "essentially useless," you haven't played with it enough to know the difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by A Legend
2) If you draw Leyline of the Meek and Goblin Charbelcher, then you ask yourself whether or not you can resolve Goblin Charbelcher. If the answer is yes, then you keep the hand, and if the answer is no, then you mulligan the hand. Either way, you don't really care whether or not you draw Leyline of the Meek, because there was no other card that would have resolved the Goblin Charbelcher in the first place other than Street Wraith, which isn't a mutually exclusive card. On the other side, Leyline of the Meek is either a free Time Walk for Empty the Warrens or a virtual storm generator, which lets you race Pyroclasm and Engineered Explosives on the play and Engineered Plague and Pernicious Deed on the draw, or it lets you keep 7, 6 and 5 card hand you wouldn't other wise be able to win with by making your Goblins lethal.
3) Living Wish increases the speed of the deck by A) reducing mulligans, since Living Wish plus Lion's Eye Diamond/Wild Cantor into Slithermuse lets you keep a hand only on Living Wish B) resolving Slithermuse and drawing a new hand lets you float mana and build storm, the storm alone usually Time Walks Empty the Warrens into a one turn win or a Storm Entity into a turn two win.
Living Wish is also a pseudo win condition, Living Wish->Magus of the Moon can lock an opponent out of the game before he drops a land. I've seen the Europeans MD Blood Moons and Magus of the Moon in the open slots just to eliminate the opponent's mana base, at which point the Europeans rebuild thru' top decking while their opponent's are TKOed for the rest of the match. Short of that, I used to win via Minion of the Wastes or Rorix Bladewing, but even a Storm Elemental can get in for lethal sometimes. Combined with Living Wishes utility, it's enough to justify playing Living Wish over the other non-existent business options.
Whether or not those cards are optimal is irrelevant, he asked for the cards that increase the speed of R/g Belcher, and free 6 card hands and Time Walks are the answer. Ideally, you'd like to fill those 8 slots with Blasts, but practically,the deck can't support Blasts with 7 card draws on average. Whatever you choose, it's going to be sub-optimal in some form.
Don't challenge my expertise on the subject with a cheap shot like that. You're lucky you haven't received a warning for starting a flame war. Be mindful and respectful of your peers because we're all in this together.Quote:
Originally Posted by BreathWeapon
Back on topic:
I have played every version folks have posted in this forum and I find that the optimum build to be the original Ewokslayer list (with minor sideboard tweaking). I know he's had much success with that build so I'm following suit. I really believe that list to be the best and most of the other builds are trying to do things they don't have to do. You're using a logic that is completely ridiculous: Trying to open the game with six cards (potentially five) and banking on your opponent opening with a Force of Will. That's sub-optimal. I've won/Top 4'ed the local tournament in Syracuse the last four weeks in a row through about 40 Force of Wills. You need to understand that you shouldn't be playing around your opponent's hand - they should be playing around yours - that's why they mulligan if they don't open with a Force, because they're afraid you'll win. All you're doing is wasting precious mana acceleration with cards that ultimately serve no purpose.
Mulliganing aggressively is critical, yes. But resetting your hand into a bunch of reactive cards is not what you want to do with a combo deck.
You'd, um, kind of lose the game by then - there'd be no race. And, Leyline gives your 1/1's +1/+1...that doesn't get around Pyroclasm, so I don't understand that logic. If they're going to kill your creatures, then they'll do it regardless of Leyline. Ultimately it won't be lethal. If you're speaking of swinging in before they Pyroclasm, that won't matter because - again - storm won't be lethal with cards like Pyroblast, more Leylines, and more Serum Powders in your main build. The bottom line is, you're going to have to pick a hand to open with. And you might end up finding yourself with a set of cards sans Serum Powder with the other cards that will give you an auto loss. You have to consider opening a hand with those cards and not being able to do anything. Plus, if your opponent drops E.E. , you're more than likely already screwed because the basis of the debate is based on you "racing" those cards. If that hits the table, your only out is Belcher or Shattering Spree.Quote:
Originally Posted by BreathWeapon
I looked back at the original list and I am wondering why would you ever want to play black for just 4x Dark Ritual and 1x Duress/Thoughtseize and 1x Infernal in the side. From my experience playing the deck the inconsistencies from adding in 4x dark ritual just arent even worth it. My question is why would you ever play black in belcher without Spoils of the Vault or Plunge into Darkness in the main?
I didn't start a flame war, the question was "which cards increase the speed of the deck," and I assumed that it meant which cards resulted in the fastest GGs based on the turn the opponent's life reaches 0 in RG Belcher. Your assuming that A) you're an expert on the issue and I'm not B) your opinion is sufficient to dismiss my analysis with out any definitive factual or argumentative basis and C) we're discussing RGB Belcher instead of RG Belcher.Quote:
Originally Posted by A Legend
The simple fact of the matter is that RG Belcher is a 52 card deck, it could function with 8 Kobolds for the soul purposes of generating storm for Empty the Warrens and imprinting red mana on Chrome Mox. What you do with those last 8 cards is a marginal decision. RGB Belcher was dismissed because Dark Ritual was an inconsistent mana source, Wild Cantor was unnecessary with out Dark Ritual and the second land resulted in misfires. Other people found that the deck was more consistent with out black and a Bayou, and RG Belcher became the standard. If you want to play RGB Belcher, that's fine, but this argument doesn't pertain to you, because you've already made up your mind on what to do with the remaining slots.
Your reasoning against Leyline of the Meek is misinformed, R/g Belcher generates at least 5 storm if it can resolve Burning Wish -> Empty the Warrens, and 5 storm is the average storm count from a 7 card hand. Considering 5 storm from 6 card hands isn't uncommon, and Leyline of the Meek is essentially -1 storm (comparing it to Wild Cantor) for a Crusade, you always net a positive gain. Even if that positive gain isn't enough to race Engineered Explosives or Pernicious Deed, it still races Wrath of God or Damnation while surviving Empty the Warrens specific removal.
Note: I think the definition of race was clear in this instance, and if it wasn't, then you've already figured it out for yourself.
I've tested both cards extensively, and they're perfectly functional even if they aren't necessarily optimal. Regardless of their playability, if you put RG Belcher + 4 Serum Powder and +4 Leyline of the Meek into the program, I'm certain they'll produce the fastest wins.
I apologize if my post confused you, but I think I laid out my argument and its parameters concisely. Personally, I couldn't figure out what you were talking about until I re-read your post and came across "wasting precious mana acceleration" before I realized you were playing RGB or "CRET" Belcher, which is really its own deck, because you can't possibly argue cutting the 9 to 5 cards that differentiate it from RG Belcher.
I really think decks need to meet 3 criteria to benefit from Serum Powder:
1) they need to have a powerful, focused game plan - check.
2) they need to consist mostly of 3-ofs and 4-ofs - check.
3) they need to actually be able to use it in the actual game - nope.
Yes, you can still win with some hands containing a blank and the option to take free mulligans sounds nice... but it is perfectly pointless. 'Take this 7-card hand or a random six-card hand' becomes 'take this 6-card hand or a random 7-card hand' which isn't necessarily better. What's worse, if you have 2 Powders in your opening grip, it becomes 'take this 5-card hand or a random 7-card hand' which is worse; to say nothing of the annoyance of topdecking one.
I will gladly use the card in mono-Silver Stax but not in a deck that will wish to use its mana distributed over 2 turns at most.
Hey guys,
It's been a while. I ended up selling a lot of my cards after a crushing defeat at a large Legacy tournament back in December. I simply lost interest in the game. However, I, for whatever reason, could not bring myself to part with Belcher. The deck is simple enough for me to pick up any time and try my luck in a tournament and what do you know? Big tournament coming up again...this time I won't make the same mistakes.
Few questions I'd like addressed.
-Since my absence, it seems like Goblins has returned to the forefront. There is also a large showing of Monowhite Stax, Faerie Stompy, and Dragon Stompy decks -- how have you faired against these archetypes?
-I've been looking up recent high-placing belcher lists...all of them seem to be running black. The version I had used before deciding to quit was a pure R/G 1-land deck w/ Magus of the Moons. I suppose Magus didn't prevail and will still be a heavy metagame call. Is black w/ Spoils of the Vault and whatnot the way to go now?
-In my testing, two lands was always a hinderance. In my testing, two lands with one BAYOU, was an even greater hinderance. Thus, I've never advocated the use of black in the deck. Is it really worth the risk?
I'd like to see some optimal and/or successful decklists!
In my opinion black MUST be in the deck. The acceleration gained from Dark Ritual and the searching powers of Spoils or Plunge into Darkness as well as Thoughtseize/Duress in the SB help the deck a lot. Now, I am an advocate of Spoils of the Vault. It really just makes the deck INSANELY explosive and generally when cast allows the deck to combo out that turn as opposed to Plunge into Darkness which you will generally be able to go off the turn after it is cast. True to the nature of the card you will kill yourself with Spoils. It happens. But the tradeoff between comboing off turn 1 over turn 2 is IMOP worth the risk. I rarely play Belcher anymore, all things aside I play Spanish Inquisition, the 2 land version because it is simply a better, more explosive, and more resiliant deck (from my experience and testing). But the list I ran for Belcher is:
4x Goblin Charbelcher
4x Burning Wish
3x Empty the Warrens
3x Spoils of the Vault
4x Seething Song
4x Dark Ritual
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Rite of Flame
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Tinder Wall
4x Chrome Mox
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal
4x Land Grant
1x Taiga
1x Bayou
SB
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Hull Breach
1x Pyroclasm
1x Cave-In
1x Reverent Silence
1x Metagame Slot (I like Seeds of Innocence here)
3x Shattering Spree
3x Thoughtseize
3x Duress (could be 3x Pyroblast)
If you want a very controlled version of Belcher play with Plunge into Darkness, but the Spoils version is a LOT faster and a little more consistent. Personally I have never been a fan of the 1x land versions or any of the R/G versions but again, when it comes to pure speed no version of Belcher is faster than the Spoils version from what I have seen or tested.
EDIT: Of the 3x times I brought Belcher to my weekly Legacy tournament with a turnout of 15-25 people I made the top 8 once, the top 4 once, and split in the finals once. That speaks strongly of the decks consistency.
Thanks for the thorough answer.
I'll definitely test the black version with Spoils now (I am DEFINITELY a fan of the card). Also, what do you board out for hand disruption? (I'm guessing Seething Songs then 1-ofs of other cards?)