I have not yet tried Shard Phoenix, but is it better than just running extra Siege-Gang Commanders? That creature is also really unfair when you drop your second one (the first one murders their board, the second one just murders them).
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I have not yet tried Shard Phoenix, but is it better than just running extra Siege-Gang Commanders? That creature is also really unfair when you drop your second one (the first one murders their board, the second one just murders them).
What's so much better about Phoenix that Pyromancer can't do?
-Slay
Chill on its own, no. Engineered Plague? Hell yes. Even a cursory glance at tournament results in the last few months shows that Goblins is overwhelmingly the most popular deck being played and making Top 8 at tournaments. It is a given that people are going to start packing whatever hate they can for it. In a field as wide open as GP: Philly, you can absolutely expect black decks with 3-4 E. Plague in the side, because they are an excellent metagame call against the masses of goblins players that will most assuredly be there.Quote:
Originally Posted by strathe
Engineered Plague hurts Vial Goblins more than any single other card. After several hours worth of playtesting, it is exceedingly clear to me that Goblin King isn't enough to consistently play around it. Neither is 3 Kings. Nor 4. The deck needs answers to it, and REB, Pithing Needle, and Anarchy don't do the job. Disenchant, on the other hand, does the jobs of all those cards in many cases.
If you're careful about how and when you play your Plateaus, it's really not difficult to minimize liability caused by a splash.
Buy itself back for RRR.Quote:
What's so much better about Phoenix that Pyromancer can't do?
Phoenix doesnt care about Sharpshooter being in play, and a cycled Incinerator doesnt stop it from killing their team. Yes, its good with Vial, but after you wrath them, youll probably have a turn to buy it back if you need to.
If Engineered Plague is the only reason to splash white has anybody thought about playing that terrible Darksteel card Echoing Calm. It will deal with multiple plagues so that you can better recover if the second one gets played.
The whole point about running disenchant is that it gives you flexiblitity, not simply because it provides an answer to engineered plague. While the majority of threats you'll be using it againts are indeed enchantments, there are some artifacts that can't simply be ignored.Quote:
If Engineered Plague is the only reason to splash white has anybody thought about playing that terrible Darksteel card Echoing Calm. It will deal with multiple plagues so that you can better recover if the second one gets played.
Okay, so assuming you're going to be faced with a wide variety of archetypes (at least in the first few rounds), I would still argue that pithing needle/anarchy is superior to disenchant. My reasoning is that pithing needle and anarchy provide an answer to pretty much any permanent goblin hate card you can reasonably expect to see, with the exception of chill and engineered plague. Chill is stopped by REB, which is in the sb anyway for solidarity, so that leaves engineered plague.Quote:
In a field as wide open as GP: Philly, you can absolutely expect black decks with 3-4 E. Plague in the side, because they are an excellent metagame call against the masses of goblins players that will most assuredly be there.
Now I ask you: how often are you going to see a competetive deck with access to black mana? The only ones I can think of are Reanimator, RecSur, The Rock, Nausea, and Pox (though It's possible The Game and Suicide Black could make appearances). I think it's safe to assume you won't be hitting too many of these decks, and you almost definitely won't see any after round 2 or 3. I'm confident, however, that belcher and survival-based decks will show up in much larger numbers. If nothing more, Pithing needle gives you an answer to belcher, a matchup that that disenchant actually makes very little impact in. Without pithing needle or null rod, belcher will crush you unless they get unlucky with a spoils. Also, while you technically have the advantage against ATS and R/G survival, it would make things a lot easier if you dropped a pithing needle on the table and sealed the win.
Hey guys, outside of some of the more volitile arguments on this thread, I would like to say I appreciate everyone's opinions here so far. I recently put together my first goblin deck and have started playing. My build is very near that optimal mono-red build posted here FYI. So here's what I'm here to say and ask.
First of all I have to say I'm really impressed with all of you and your ability to T4 consistenly with this deck. When I first looked at goblins I thought, this will be easy to build and win with. This is simply not true, goblins takes a lot more skill that I could have imagined. This brings me to my question, what are some of the more common play and combinations that I need to be working for in the different match ups. Fortunately for me right now my local meta isn't representive of Tier decks though there is a lot of rogue aggro there. What I'm wanting to know is what I need to be doing to set up the board for the win in control, aggro/control, and aggro matchups?
My common plays are usually:
Kiki + Ringleader = buttloads of gobbos
Matron for: Ringleader, Sharpshooter, warchief, or if i want to be ballsy kiki
it all really depends on how much mana you have at that time, what you have in your hand and what you can grab with Matron that will give you an advantage. Usual Matron Grabs include: Ringleader, Kiki, SGC, Sharpshooter, Warchief, hell ive even grabbed gempalm to cycle that turn only to kill a blocking/next turn attacking threat. But thats me, people here will probably disagree with me but meh *shrugs* whatever.
Out of curiosity, what does splashing green bring goblins. I was thinking about this and I think is some respects green would be more favorable than white given gobbos aggressiveness. I've been looking around through what green has to offer and I'll definitely post some ideas once I get them all written down, but I would also like to see what everone else thinks even if it means that I get flamed.:)
The green splash is for naturalize, is some/all metas you need to be able to deal with enginered plauge. this is mainly if you meta sees alot of goblins being played, otherwise mos people dont sideboard plague. If you were to splash green it's basicly because more people own a set of Tiagas vs. a set of plateaus. The white splash being better because u can sideboard swords. Black is splached mainly for cabal therapy and secondarly for stuff like duress, chains of mest. and patriarchs bidding. Overall the best splash in most players view is white. That is if you intend to spash at all. Mono red has the advantage of a more stable mana base and the ability to run more non red producing lands such as wasteland and port. Port useful in mana denial so you can buy the time you need to win the game. Also mono red sideboards anarchy to deal with COP:Red and humity/reverance.Quote:
Originally Posted by MoxSlaver
Mono red also has the downside of getting reamed by Sphere of Law and Engineered Plague. Usually the only splash card is the Disenchant effect because the main problem cards you run into are enchantments. There are some black versions with hand disruption and recursion, however.
Also, it is entirely possible to splash a color and still run Waste and Port.
I would like to further discuss the possibility of a green splash. Green was initially dismissed becuase STP was also under consideration, but with STP out of the picture (it seems) why would Naturalize not work as well as Disenchant? We also have the advantage of running in color fetches that, if merited, can fetch a lone Forest in the deck (or stick to Taigas - it would depend on the level of fear-of-Wasteland). R/g also offers Artifact Mutation, which in conjunction with the Naturalizes & the 8 Blast Plan would round out a sideboard nicely. In a tourney like Philly, there will be a metric ton of relevant artifacts played. The ability to run a '7 Blast Plan' for artifacts like Belcher, Time Vault, Nevy's Disk, Crucible, Masticore, O-Stone, Jitte, SoFi, Aether Vial etc etc from decks ranging from the mirror & Landstill to RGSA & Jack Black/MBC & Angel Stompy & Fish to Belcher & FlameVault to unexpected decks like Ravager (it WILL show up, and is an easy port from both Type 2 and Extended) makes green a legitimate option, imo.
Okay, here's a short list from green that makes me wonder if it's worth splashing green for any other reason other than Naturalize.
Instansts (1 and 2 cc): Berserk, Bind, Blossoming Wreath, Crop Rotation, Echoing Courage, Howling Gale, Magnify, Natural Selection, Naturalize, Oxidize, Reclaim, Repopulate, Sandstorm, Seedtime, Serene Heart, Skyshroud Blessing, Tangle, Tel-Jilad Justice, Tranquil Domain, Tribal Unity, Undergrowth, Vitilize, Avoid Fate, and Rust.
Enchantments ( 1 to 3 cc): Burgeoning, Compost, Concordant Crossroads, Crosswinds, Dense Foliage, Exploration, Familiar Ground, Fecundity, Manabond, Mirri's Guile, Multani's Preserve, Overwhelming Instinct, Primal Rage, Root Maze, Steely Resolve.
These are just suggestions of cards to look into and see what needs to be tested. Some of these cards look really interesting to me and look as is they would work really nicely with Goblins. For ex; Tribal Unity (X2G) Creatures of a type get +X/+X until end of turn. With 6 or more Goblins on the board mid game this card looks like it would definitely be worth tapping out for. Other instants that looked really good to me were Undergrowth and Seedtime, the later especially in the sideboard. For the most part, the enchantments are cheap, have affects that cover the board and lend themselves to Goblins game plan to one degree or another.
I'm not advocating the auto inclusion of any of these cards, I was just look in through what Green had to offer if someone wanted to splash green as green gives Goblins Naturalize if needed like white has Disenchant. Green looks to me like it offers more cards that play into it's aggressiveness. Add to that by using Wooded Foothills a player could run 2 Tiaga's and 1 Forest without unbalancing Goblins consistent mana base.
These are suggestions and ideas that I think that cannot be overlooked or left untested. Look into the list, see what everone thinks and lets discuss this and play with some of these cards and see if they lend themselves to Goblins gameplan without messing up it's redundancy and consistency.
The thing that sucks about running things that arent goblins is that they either tend to suck with ringleader and get owned away or if theyre in your opening hand when you dont want them, or when youre in topdeck mode and you need a goblin for the win and you grab one of those cards you decided to splash for which made you end up losing
This sentence wasn't overly coherent. Please make an effort to develop your posts more thoroughly so that they benefit the conversation. - Zilla
Here’s the deal:
Carvern Ninja basically believes that NQG/Super-Gro has a good Goblins match.
I and a couple other people disagree. In that particular match, I have never won playing GRO, and have never lost playing Goblins. Well, maybe a game, but never a match.
Have you, the goblin players, experienced similar results?
NQG or Super Gro are good match-ups for you. Vial is a bomb. You can just overwhelm them, and with 4 Ports 4 Wasteland, it really keeps them off the good mana. They can't support Tividar's Crusade against us, even though people seem to be playing it. Sphere of Law is expensive for a 18 land deck, especially against mana denial and a super fast clock. In my experience it is a very good match-up. But maybe that's just me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Squares
I was wondering why no one plays lightning bolts. I understand the negative interaction with Ringleaders, but a bit more creature removal is nice and I like being able to deal that last 3 to the dome.
I run the same list as Scarface on the bottom on page 17 except -1 Incinerator, -1 Pyromancer, -1 Land, +3 Lightning Bolt, -4 Wasteland, +4 Mountain.
The other thing I was wondering about was how important the Wastelands were. When I play Vial Goblins it seems like a somewhat mana-hungry deck, and so I generally don't like saccing my land. I'd probably still have enough red sources if I swapped 4 Mountains for 4 Wasteland, but what I really hate is when my land gets Wastelanded.
First off, welcome to The Source! I'm so glad more people are posting here lately.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mogg
Secondly, Wasteland is ESSENTIAL. In the Landstill match-up, Wasteing a White source keeps them off Wrath for at least a turn, usually more. With a Port out, I've shut them off it completly.
Thirdsly, I don't advocate Lightning Bolt at times, and sometimes I'm going to. For the GPT's, I wouldn't recommend it. Why? At least where I am, you run into alot more competive decks like Landstill, and more evenly played between tier 1 decks (Last top 8 feature 2 Landstill, 2 Solidarity, and 2 Goblins). At GP Philly, if you don't have a 3rd round bye, I would play Bolts to fend off all the random aggro you will undoubtable face moreso early. But if you win byes, I would advocate not using them, as more Solidarity/Landstill will pop-up, and Goblins. Bolts are good in the mirror, but only best when your on the play with a Lackey. That start is also great, but is stoped by a Fanatic or a Bolt of theres, and you can just use your own Fantastic or a Gempalm to blast away any blockers in site.
Goblins can be mana hungry, but Vial and Lackey really help. I don't know how many times Wastes and Ports have locked my opponent down for 2-3 turns, while my Lackey and/or Vial does all the dirty work.
I would have to agree with 'Etak' about the Wastelands. Although my meta doesn't see a lot of tier decks, I do see a whole lot of aggro using non-basic lands. Popping an opponents 1 turn artifact land is huge, and in my case sealed the game before it ever really got going. Against Mono-Colored decks having 1 or 2 colorless mana hasn't been a draw back, nor has it really slowed down what I'm doing all that much, though I have found that I have to think through what order I'm going to play things sometimes.
As to 'Bolts', I'm not sure about that yet. Thus far when I'm playing Goblins, I find that anything that's not a goblin needs to go. From the stand point of synergy and out right speed, having a pre-board MD that's solid goblins is working out a lot better for me than one that has any number of non-goblins in it.