Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kuma
What does Weathered Wayfarer do except slow you down? You need to have less land than your opponent to use it's ability, which is contrary to where aggro decks want to be. You'll also draw toolbox lands when you don't want them leading to more mulligans, wasted turns, and moon/Wasteland vulnerability. On top of that, a 1/1 for W isn't an inspiring beater and can't really be counted as a threat.
It can win the landstill MU on its own, which by itself should already be a good reason to play it. But as udjur said, it allows a nifty land toolbox which adds lots of flexbility and versatility to the deck, especially since it can function on low mana (with vial and such). Drawing toolbox lands (ie karakas, wasteland and flagstones, possibly maze and a man-land) isn't a problem since you already should be running most of these without wayfarer, and by reducing the number of karakas to 3 and of flagstones to 1, you actually DECREASE the inconsistencies in the deck by reducing the chances to be stuck with two. You could also mention the synergy with jotun grunt (which can be upped to 3 MD assuming you don't run SotPC since you play wasteland) which allows the lands in your GY to be fetched again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kuma
Have you ever played with Flickerwisp? Being a 3/1 flier is kind of a big deal, and the useful non-combat ability puts it over the top.
Why is it that when you say you don't like a certain card in a deck people supporting it will either claim you didn't test it (or enough), or don't know how to play it? As I said, I have tested it and don't like it. I'm not saying it's useless, simply that I'd rather have something else in that spot. All the cases you have explained in which flickerwisp's ability is good (without vial) are either situational, or have a marginal impact on the game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kuma
Mana Tithe?! Are you kidding me? Here's a piece of advice: PUNT THE STORM COMBO MATCHUP. Nobody plays Belcher, TES, SI, Fetchland Tendrils, and Solidarity anymore, and they're always going to be bad for us no matter what we run. Mana Tithe isn't even a good card against any of those decks. Death and Taxes is aggro/board control, and the last thing an aggro deck wants to do is pass the turn to maybe counter a spell.
Except the card isn't usefull only in those MU, but basically against any deck likely to win in the first 4 turns, and will still be usefull in the early-game in any case. Admittedly, it's not a GREAT card and it gets sided out quite often, but it's still a stonger MD option than flickerwisp imho. Oh and by the way, D&T has always been an aggro-control deck, don't start playing on words. Maybe what you meant is that you don't want to keep a land open for tithe during the opponent's turn, but between vial, wayfarer, stp and Lin (yes, I still run her), in my build you do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
urdjur
*Nomad Stadium is there because it sacrifices for a useful effect in the end game, allowing me to fetch another land (wasteland most likely) if I'm tied for # of lands. Against burn, you need an early Jitte or Auriok Champion from the board and/or delaying them with taxing effects.
My criteria for running lands in the mini-toolobox has always been not to be burdened by them if I draw one at random. And actually, I think that's the case of nomad stadium. Overall, it's effect is just too marginal to justify the lifeloss and the vulnerability to non-basic hate. If you reach threshold against burn for example, I think you've already won (and in other case, the lifeloss can really harm you).
I'm still not sold on outpost / mishra, but what's for sure is that the former (if played) is SB material, while the former could be maindecked.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
urdjur
The above aren't so much "creatures" as they are vialable disruption..
I see your point, and this is indeed the thinking behind D&T as a whole. But it makes you even more vulnerable to DD/EE/deed, and you'll still often be stopped on ground by a single goyf (assuming you run out of removal), unless you're really capable of overruning him (but you're not goblins either).
Quote:
Originally Posted by
urdjur
Why do people insist on believing that True Believer helps any combo match-up at all? Or that he helps against any deck at all except anecdotal crap like "this one time at band camp, my opponent had a scepter-chant lock and I managed to vial in True Believer while he was unlucky enough to not draw any removal at all, so that's why you should run true believer."
Notice that I haven't been advocating for running TB. Imho, it's SB material at best. And yes, it CAN help against combo, although sometimes only a little, and sometimes not at all. But this and the fact that it's usefull in other cases (burn and discard mainly) makes it a possible SB option, depending on your metagame.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
urdjur
On a side note, I think 4 is the correct number for Wayfarer, as landstill tends to force him as expediently as a turn 1 Vial if they can, or StP him immediately if they have any experience with the little bugger. Certain thresh builds hate him too. I also like having 7 possibilities to get Karakas running in the deck for the mid game (moar consistansy = bettar).
We're really nitpicking here, and it might just be a matter of personal preferences, but I have been stucked with a second (useless) wayfarer often enough for not wanting to run 4.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Ima say something here about Flickerwisp - if I have a vial out set to three I would rather rip a Flickerwisp off the top of the deck than any other card. It is incredibly versatile when it comes in off the vial. Without a vial, it is not stupid good, but so what? It's an aggressive, cheap threat with a CIP effect that occasionally is quite good. I can't remember who said what here, but lemme just say that the person who says he does not like it after trying it out did not give it its due. I have been following Finn with this deck since pretty close to the beginning and I can tell you that this guy is the best advancement since Mangara.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
nomad stadium. Overall, it's effect is just too marginal to justify the lifeloss and the vulnerability to non-basic hate. If you reach threshold against burn for example, I think you've already won (and in other case, the lifeloss can really harm you).
I'm still not sold on outpost / mishra, but what's for sure is that the former (if played) is SB material, while the former could be maindecked.
[...]
We're really nitpicking here, and it might just be a matter of personal preferences, but I have been stucked with a second (useless) wayfarer often enough for not wanting to run 4.
You might be right. Again, I'm not counting Stadium as a useful card against burn at all, I run it because I can use it to keep my land count low in the mid game and get some life to boot (so I can get wayfarer activations). Still, the life loss CAN hurt, and it's non basic.
I'm gonna try:
-1 Wayfarer (+1 to the SB for the landstill/loam MU)
-1 Nomad Stadium (no SB either)
+1 Plains
+1 Mishra's Factory
and remove outpost from the SB.
The mentioned synergy with Grunt is nice, but how often do you need to pull more than 4 wastelands from your deck, really? I'm thinking "never", if you can disrupt THEIR recursion with SotPC instead. Overall, I find SotPC has more synergy with the deck than Grunt, since there are so many RFG effects and permanents, so not many things go the graveyard even if you don't run SotPC. The samurai makes sure wasted lands and jitte kills go the same way as mangarad permanents, stp:d and ORing:d targets (plus creature trades).
Quote:
I see your point, and this is indeed the thinking behind D&T as a whole. But it makes you even more vulnerable to DD/EE/deed, and you'll still often be stopped on ground by a single goyf (assuming you run out of removal), unless you're really capable of overruning him (but you're not goblins either).
Glowrider + recurring wastelands makes me LESS susceptible to deed and friends than typical D&T. And if a goyf player is holding it back as a blocker, you're doing something right. I can race most aggro decks with that list, plus 8 fliers (not to mention the removal) means that ground fat won't bog me down.
Hmm... I might even consider running a Blinkmoth Nexus over mishra in the main to get a fetchable flier just to carry a jitte to the dome. It's not like 1 power difference on a single dude will matter. But flying might.
Quote:
Flickerwisp
[...]
I can tell you that this guy is the best advancement since Mangara.
Yup, I'd agree. It's even a more significant addition than ORing IMO.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Maëlig
It can win the landstill MU on its own, which by itself should already be a good reason to play it. But as udjur said, it allows a nifty land toolbox which adds lots of flexbility and versatility to the deck, especially since it can function on low mana (with vial and such). Drawing toolbox lands (ie karakas, wasteland and flagstones, possibly maze and a man-land) isn't a problem since you already should be running most of these without wayfarer, and by reducing the number of karakas to 3 and of flagstones to 1, you actually DECREASE the inconsistencies in the deck by reducing the chances to be stuck with two. You could also mention the synergy with jotun grunt (which can be upped to 3 MD assuming you don't run SotPC since you play wasteland) which allows the lands in your GY to be fetched again.
The problem with Wayfarer is that it's slow and conditional. It is ineffective when you're on the play and when you have sufficient mana. It does nothing the turn you play it, and it's incredibly fragile. Before you tell me "so is Mangara", Mangara is one of the weakest slots in the deck, but his upside of remove a permanent each turn is much better than maybe find a land each turn. I would never run less of my important lands because of Wayfarer, because like I said earlier, he's too conditional to rely on to find land. "Nifty land toolbox" sounds like danger of cool things. What does Maze of Ith do that StP, Mangara, and O-Ring don't do better?
Do you frequently have low mana problems? I rarely do because D&T runs 20-22 lands plus four Aether Vial. Wayfarer seems like overkill.
You know what really has synergy with Jotun Grunt? Flickerwisp. You don't even need an Aether Vial.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Maëlig
Why is it that when you say you don't like a certain card in a deck people supporting it will either claim you didn't test it (or enough), or don't know how to play it? As I said, I have tested it and don't like it. I'm not saying it's useless, simply that I'd rather have something else in that spot. All the cases you have explained in which flickerwisp's ability is good (without vial) are either situational, or have a marginal impact on the game.
Because I don't see how you can dislike a three power flier with a useful non-combat ability. The number one reason Flickerwisp is awesome is that it ends games quickly if unanswered. I've won more games due to it's evasive beatdown abilities than because of it's flicker ability. Of course the flicker ability is situational, but it's not the best thing about the card and there are lots of situations for it. At worst, you can leave one mana open and bluff StP. Every time. At worst.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Maëlig
Except the card isn't usefull only in those MU, but basically against any deck likely to win in the first 4 turns, and will still be usefull in the early-game in any case. Admittedly, it's not a GREAT card and it gets sided out quite often, but it's still a stonger MD option than flickerwisp imho. Oh and by the way, D&T has always been an aggro-control deck, don't start playing on words. Maybe what you meant is that you don't want to keep a land open for tithe during the opponent's turn, but between vial, wayfarer, stp and Lin (yes, I still run her), in my build you do.
How does delaying your gameplan one turn to maybe delay your opponent one turn help you win? Maybe you'll hit a key Lackey or Vial and screw the goblin player, but that matchup is already incredible. Combo is also a terrible matchup that isn't helped much by Mana Tithe. What other significant decks in the format plan on winning in the first four turns. Ichorid? You have a very narrow window in which to use Mana Tithe, and there's far better cards you could run vs. them anyway. I want cards that do something every time I draw them.
Control = reactive answers to opponent's cards, i.e. countermagic, StP.
Board Control = a strategy that create large amounts of card advantage by pro-actively destroying multiple cards with individual cards, i.e. Cataclysm, Pernicious Deed, Mangara Combo.
Fair enough, I did play on words, but I think D&T is closer in spirit to Rock, Landstill, etc. than Threshold in it's controlling elements.
I'd like to see your build, because I doubt you have enough threats to have a legitimate aggro plan. Trying to be reactive goes against the main gameplan of D&T which is beatdown.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Just to address to the Mana Tithe issue. You can always play one Mana Tithe in your sideboard, and 'accidentally' show it to your opponent at the start of a match. You'll get the same effect as playing 4 main deck. Not that I condone this sort of thing, but I just want to say, once the surprise is gone, Mana Tithe is not that effective. So you could win one game on its back, then lose the other two because you relied on it too much. I am even contemplating just giving up on the combo matchup all together and remove the Orim's Chant. But I am too much of a wussy to do so...
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
I'm probably going to cut Chant for Runed Halo. It's still good against combo plus a lot of other decks.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
urdjur
The mentioned synergy with Grunt is nice, but how often do you need to pull more than 4 wastelands from your deck, really? I'm thinking "never", if you can disrupt THEIR recursion with SotPC instead. Overall, I find SotPC has more synergy with the deck than Grunt
It does happen once in a while, actually. And you can also recur a needed factory or maze if it has been wasted or discarded. Also, grunt is much better than SotPC overall imho, if only for the fact that it eats goyfs all day long. SotPC is often only good to stop recursion effects, and therefore pretty situational (in run it in the SB).
Quote:
Originally Posted by
urdjur
Glowrider + recurring wastelands makes me LESS susceptible to deed and friends than typical D&T.
You really shouldn't count on your disruption to prevent your opponent from playing 3cc spells. It might be the case once in a while, but you should be concerned about the case in which it doesn't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
urdjur
Hmm... I might even consider running a Blinkmoth Nexus over mishra in the main to get a fetchable flier just to carry a jitte to the dome. It's not like 1 power difference on a single dude will matter. But flying might.
That's a nice idea, I will definitely test it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kuma
Mangara is one of the weakest slots in the deck
What does Maze of Ith do that StP, Mangara, and O-Ring don't do better?
Are you serious? You realize the main advatange D&T has over classic WW is actually Mangara?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kuma
What does Maze of Ith do that StP, Mangara, and O-Ring don't do better?
If I could play an additional fetchable stp/mangara/o.ring, I would certainly do so. Having alot of spot-removal is the way to go in the current format imho. Also, maze is great against any deck playing equipments (such as FS), in particular SoLS.
To finish on wayfarer, it's true that it's not a great card in the combo and the aggro MU. In almost every other case, I prefer it to isamaru as a 1cc creature.
About flickerwisp, I never said it was a bad card in general. I just think there are better things to do than making your curve substantively higher for a three power flyer with a situational ability, that's all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kuma
I'd like to see your build, because I doubt you have enough threats to have a legitimate aggro plan. Trying to be reactive goes against the main gameplan of D&T which is beatdown.
I posted my list a while ago, it hasn't changed very much since then.
// Lands
12 [IN] Plains (3)
3 [LG] Karakas
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
1 [4E] Mishra's Factory
1 [DK] Maze of Ith
// Creatures
4 [TSP] Serra Avenger
3 [TSP] Mangara of Corondor
3 [ON] Weathered Wayfarer
4 [TSP] Knight of the Holy Nimbus
3 [NE] Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero
1 [TSP] Children of Korlis
3 [CS] Jotun Grunt
// Spells
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
4 [DS] AEther Vial
3 [PLC] Mana Tithe
3 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
SB: 4 [CHK] Samurai of the Pale Curtain
SB: 3 [ON] True Believer
SB: 4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst (this is mainly to replace chant for budget reasons)
SB: 3 [EX] Cataclysm
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Maëlig
Are you serious? You realize the main advatange D&T has over classic WW is actually Mangara?
I disagree. The main advantages we have over classic WW are versatility and the ability to play control/board control. Mangara is a part of this, but the real advantage we have is the ability to answer more problems. Between cards like Glowrider, Stonecloaker, Cataclysm, Tivadar of Thorn, Rishadan Port, Flickerwisp, and Mangara we have the ability to answer strategies like Loam, Ichorid, Thresh, Dreadstill, Combo, and Goblins much better than traditional WW.
For all the talk of using Mangara over and over to great advantage, I've only done it in one or two games in the dozen-plus tournaments I've played D&T. Most of the time my Mangaras are one and done or killed before I can use them. He's fragile, and you can respond to a Karakas activation by killing him, or you can just counter/kill him while he's sick. He's also not a combat threat, which is why I consider him one of the worst slots in the deck.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Maëlig
If I could play an additional fetchable stp/mangara/o.ring, I would certainly do so. Having alot of spot-removal is the way to go in the current format imho. Also, maze is great against any deck playing equipments (such as FS), in particular SoLS.
To finish on wayfarer, it's true that it's not a great card in the combo and the aggro MU. In almost every other case, I prefer it to isamaru as a 1cc creature.
So would I, but the problem is you have to run a subpar card to do the fetching. I agree with you on spot removal, but Maze of Ith is not spot removal. What you're saying is that Wayfarer is good against Landstill/Rock/MUC etc.? Could be, of those I'm only experienced vs Rock. Still, it would have to be amazing there, because it seems very subpar everywhere else.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Maëlig
About flickerwisp, I never said it was a bad card in general. I just think there are better things to do than making your curve substantively higher for a three power flyer with a situational ability, that's all.
I don't know what your definition of "substansively" is, but I cut Cataclysms for Flickerwisps. Most people probably cut a two-coster for Flickerwisp, and that's not substansive in my book. Besides, having three-costers helps you play around Counterbalance, especially when said three-coster can remove it for a turn.
You're saying "three power flyer" like it's a bad thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Maëlig
list
Wow, you run even less threats than I thought you would. If we define threat as a creature with two power and a useful combat ability (for the sake of arguing, we'll call creatures with more than two power threats even if they don't have combat abilities) you're running 12 threats, and three of them (Jotun Grunt) are only going to be threats some of the time (when graveyards are full enough to keep him around). I'd count Lin Sivvi as half a threat because she can search up other threats even though she only has one power. How do you kill people? Spot removal will buy your opponent turns and turns. For comparison, my list runs 22 threats, three of which are conditional (seven if you count Isamaru as conditional on account of his legendary status). Your list seems slow and underwhelming in the late game -- a bad combination.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Ethersworn Canonist seems like an ideal card for this deck. For reference:
1W
Artifact Creature
Players can't play more than one non-artifact spell per turn.
2/2
It's the right color, the right casting cost, and this deck doesn't play lots of spells in one turn unless you count vialing stuff into play. Also severely hampers Storm Combo. Seems like it completely takes over the True Believer slot in the maindeck (if you were still running him that is).
Works with equipment, Vial @2, and more. Just seems like exactly the sort of card D&T was looking for to shore up some of its weaker matchups. The 1W cc is also much, much more friendly to Port and Wasteland than all the WW cc's in the deck.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
smoky squirrel
Just to address to the Mana Tithe issue. You can always play one Mana Tithe in your sideboard, and 'accidentally' show it to your opponent at the start of a match.
That's actually a very nice idea, I like those kinds of jedi mind tricks. If I wasn't already playing mana tithe MD, I would probably do that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kuma
I'm probably going to cut Chant for Runed Halo. It's still good against combo plus a lot of other decks.
Combo cares very little about runed halo. It's comparable to TB in this MU, except TB has the advantage of surprise by being vialed in response to the kill.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kuma
I disagree. The main advantages we have over classic WW are versatility and the ability to play control/board control. Mangara is a part of this, but the real advantage we have is the ability to answer more problems. Between cards like Glowrider, Stonecloaker, Cataclysm, Tivadar of Thorn, Rishadan Port, Flickerwisp, and Mangara we have the ability to answer strategies like Loam, Ichorid, Thresh, Dreadstill, Combo, and Goblins much better than traditional WW.
The updated versions of WW already run glowrider/thorn (in the SB), stonecloaker, cataclysm or armageddon and port/wasteland. Really, the one card (but certainly not the only one) that makes the biggest difference between WW and D&T is Mangara for sure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kuma
If we define threat as a creature with two power and a useful combat ability (for the sake of arguing, we'll call creatures with more than two power threats even if they don't have combat abilities) you're running 12 threats, and three of them (Jotun Grunt) are only going to be threats some of the time (when graveyards are full enough to keep him around).
It seems that our definition of "threat" is not the same. For instance, isamaru, SotPC and silver knight (basing myself on the last list you posted) might be threats stricto sensu, but what do they do in front of an opposing goyf / terravore / stalker / random critter? In the current format, your creatures either need evasion or a useful ability (or be of comparable size to a goyf, but that's not an option in white) to be relevant on the field. Besides, what good is it to have alot of threats if you are to concede to a single board-sweeper? Especially since you will HAVE to over-extend to get past opposing goyfs...
Lin can be protected with karakas (possibly fetched with wayfarer) and has to be answered rapidly otherwise she overwhelmes the field with critters protected from the most common mass removal in the format (deed, EE, DD). The CoK soft-lock is better than the spore-frog + genesis one in many cases (can be played as an instant and relevant against burn, although vulnerable to spot-removal), and can transform itself into a hard-lock against ichorid (removing bridges every turn) and tendrils-based combo if you manage to slow them down for a few turns.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
morgan_coke
Ethersworn Canonist seems like an ideal card for this deck. For reference:
1W
Artifact Creature
Players can't play more than one non-artifact spell per turn.
2/2
It's the right color, the right casting cost, and this deck doesn't play lots of spells in one turn unless you count vialing stuff into play. Also severely hampers Storm Combo. Seems like it completely takes over the True Believer slot in the maindeck (if you were still running him that is).
Works with equipment, Vial @2, and more. Just seems like exactly the sort of card D&T was looking for to shore up some of its weaker matchups. The 1W cc is also much, much more friendly to Port and Wasteland than all the WW cc's in the deck.
That does indeed look interesting. Invaluably better than TB against storm-combo, at least (although more restricted in its appliations). Probably not MD material, but I will certainly be testing it in the SB replacing TB.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Maëlig
Combo cares very little about runed halo. It's comparable to TB in this MU, except TB has the advantage of surprise by being vialed in response to the kill.
Why are you so pre-occupied with the combo matchup? Runed Halo may not win it on its own, but it has numerous applications beyond the combo matchup. I'll bet you'd resolve a Runed Halo vs. combo way more often than you'd vial in a True Believer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Maëlig
The updated versions of WW already run glowrider/thorn (in the SB), stonecloaker, cataclysm or armageddon and port/wasteland. Really, the one card (but certainly not the only one) that makes the biggest difference between WW and D&T is Mangara for sure.
Some lists probably run those cards. The WW lists I've seen and played against run Armageddon and maybe Wasteland out of the cards I listed. Do you often abuse Mangara to great advantage?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Maëlig
It seems that our definition of "threat" is not the same. For instance, isamaru, SotPC and silver knight (basing myself on the last list you posted) might be threats stricto sensu, but what do they do in front of an opposing goyf / terravore / stalker / random critter? In the current format, your creatures either need evasion or a useful ability (or be of comparable size to a goyf, but that's not an option in white) to be relevant on the field.
So a creature has to be able to deal with goyf/Terravore/Tombstalker to be a threat? Isamaru can chump a goyf all day with Karakas out, SotPC makes goyfs and Terravores smaller, and Tombstalker harder to cast. Silver Knight doesn't do much to those creatures, but is great vs Goblins, Burn, Aggro Loam, and Red Thresh.
As for evasion or a useful ability, I think every creature in my list has one or the other. I don't get what you're saying.
By your definition of "threat" Goblins doesn't run any threats. Yet it is a DtB, and a fast and powerful deck. When you run numerous threats backed with disruption, you often win games before your opponent can stabilize their board. Death and Taxes does that well, while maintaining a good mid and late game plan on the backs of Mangara, Stonecloaker, Jotun Grunt, and Cataclysm.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Maëlig
Besides, what good is it to have alot of threats if you are to concede to a single board-sweeper? Especially since you will HAVE to over-extend to get past opposing goyfs...
Lin can be protected with karakas (possibly fetched with wayfarer) and has to be answered rapidly otherwise she overwhelmes the field with critters protected from the most common mass removal in the format (deed, EE, DD). The CoK soft-lock is better than the spore-frog + genesis one in many cases (can be played as an instant and relevant against burn, although vulnerable to spot-removal), and can transform itself into a hard-lock against ichorid (removing bridges every turn) and tendrils-based combo if you manage to slow them down for a few turns.
Running lots of creatures also helps you recover from board sweepers. Decks with board sweepers tend to run few creatures, allowing you to pressure them with only two or three creatures. You don't overextend. This is basic magic strategy.
You don't have to overextend to get around goyfs. You can remove them with StP, O-Ring, and Mangara, shrink them with Stonecloakers and Grunts, fly over them, or use Jitte to be bigger.
Your list is better than mine against board sweepers, I'll give you that. But I think you're worse just about everywhere else. While we're on the subject, Flickerwisp is also great vs. EE.
Stonecloaker, SotPC, and Jotun Grunt are already awesome vs. Ichorid. Besides, establishing CoK lock seems too slow to hurt Ichorid most of the time.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Playing carefully against board sweepers also helps against them. Since the introduction of Flickerwisp, this is actually easier, since two fliers are usually a decent clock against decks that resort to sweepers. You don't need to cast more creatures.
I also have to agree with Kuma on just giving up the dedicated combo matchup. For now I will indeed switch out the Chants for Runed Halo (very good card). And maybe after shards, that new anti combo creature sounds great, in its place.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
OK, this is getting nowhere. I think we'll never fully understand each other's point of view, because we have a different vision of D&T as a whole. I see it more as an aggro-control deck, while you see it as an aggro with disruption and board control kind of deck. Is that right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kuma
Why are you so pre-occupied with the combo matchup? Runed Halo may not win it on its own, but it has numerous applications beyond the combo matchup.
I never said I was, simply that the saying "halo is about as good against combo as chant is" isn't true.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kuma
I'll bet you'd resolve a Runed Halo vs. combo way more often than you'd vial in a True Believer.
You know you can also PLAY TB? The vialing in and the body (to increase the clock) is only a bonus over runed halo in the combo MU.
But you're right that halo has generally more applications and overall isn't a bad SB card. Only it does very little in the combo MU.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kuma
So a creature has to be able to deal with goyf/Terravore/Tombstalker to be a threat?
In aggro-control, I'd tend to say yes (or have evasion or a relevant ability, again).
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kuma
SotPC makes goyfs smaller
That's a legend. SotPC does practicaly nothing against goyf, contrarily to grunt. The only thing SotPC is good against is recursion in the form of a waste-lock, ichorids or whatever.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kuma
By your definition of "threat" Goblins doesn't run any threats. Yet it is a DtB, and a fast and powerful deck.
Except goblins is pure aggro (with mana-denial and resiliency), and can easily overwhelm the board while recovering quite fast from a board sweeper. I don't think D&T can do this, at least not as good as goblins, while still getting all the hate if you go for a more aggro-ish build.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kuma
Stonecloaker, SotPC, and Jotun Grunt are already awesome vs. Ichorid. Besides, establishing CoK lock seems too slow to hurt Ichorid most of the time.
Stonecloaker is almost useless against ichorid (removing 1 card a turn for three mana, yepee), and grunt is usually too slow. SotPC is the main hoser in this MU. Without it, it's almost unwinnable. But it's not a piece of cake even with it (hello firestorm).
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Maëlig
OK, this is getting nowhere. I think we'll never fully understand each other's point of view, because we have a different vision of D&T as a whole. I see it more as an aggro-control deck, while you see it as an aggro with disruption and board control kind of deck. Is that right?
Pretty much.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Maëlig
You know you can also PLAY TB? The vialing in and the body (to increase the clock) is only a bonus over runed halo in the combo MU.
But you're right that halo has generally more applications and overall isn't a bad SB card. Only it does very little in the combo MU.
Of course you can also cast True Beleiver. Casting True Believer vs combo is as "useless" as casting Runed Halo. My point is that Runed Halo's application in other matchups far outweighs being able to vial in True Believer vs. combo once in a blue moon. It sounds like you agree with me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Maëlig
That's a legend. SotPC does practicaly nothing against goyf, contrarily to grunt. The only thing SotPC is good against is recursion in the form of a waste-lock, ichorids or whatever.
He helps keep Artifact, Enchantment, Creature, and Land out of the yard, but in general, you're right. However, I have had games where he kept goyf manageable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Maëlig
Except goblins is pure aggro (with mana-denial and resiliency), and can easily overwhelm the board while recovering quite fast from a board sweeper. I don't think D&T can do this, at least not as good as goblins, while still getting all the hate if you go for a more aggro-ish build.
D&T is slower than Goblins, but more versatile. That's how I see it, and D&T tends to outperform Goblins in my meta.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Maëlig
Stonecloaker is almost useless against ichorid (removing 1 card a turn for three mana, yepee), and grunt is usually too slow. SotPC is the main hoser in this MU. Without it, it's almost unwinnable. But it's not a piece of cake even with it (hello firestorm).
Stonecloaker isn't the greatest card vs Ichorid, but it can help. I used to think Jotun Grunt was bad vs. Ichorid, but he becomes a lot better when you realize you can choose not to pay his cumulative upkeep to remove bridges.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
He helps keep Artifact, Enchantment, Creature, and Land out of the yard
I think the odds of your opponent not having fetched by the time you land Samurai are quite small. Besides, your own Vial/Jitte and o. rings can be discarded / countered, so it doesn't even guarantee to keep those 2 types out of the yard. I get what you mean, it may happen once in a while, but you can't rely on it and REALLY can't bring it up as an arguement for SotPC.
Anyway, I think he belongs in the sideboard, honestly, since he doesn't do much against most decks.
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Stonecloaker isn't the greatest card vs Ichorid, but it can help. I used to think Jotun Grunt was bad vs. Ichorid, but he becomes a lot better when you realize you can choose not to pay his cumulative upkeep to remove bridges.
I don't understand how you came to the conclusion that the 'normal' use of Grunt was bad against Ichorid (you seem to imply it's too slow, right?), but that Stonecloaker 'can help'. Grunt removes 2 cards by turn 3, and then 2 more each time while Stonecloaker nails one/turn starting turn 3.
Besides, the way I see it, sac'ing him to remove Bridges doesn't seem like a great tech: if you're still alive by turn 3 they're probably slow playing (subpar hand), in which case removing 2+X cards/turn to lock them out of the game seems fine (starting with 2 Bridges if you're afraid of tokens; again, if you're still alive by turn3 it implies a rather slow start, so more than 2 Bridges is unlikely), or have already flashbacked Therapy for lots of tokens. Either way, it doesn't seem great.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
It's the right color, the right casting cost, and this deck doesn't play lots of spells in one turn unless you count vialing stuff into play. Also severely hampers Storm Combo. Seems like it completely takes over the True Believer slot in the maindeck (if you were still running him that is).
I think the guy takes the Glowrider slots as well and makes more space in the side. What do you think?
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
loop
I don't understand how you came to the conclusion that the 'normal' use of Grunt was bad against Ichorid (you seem to imply it's too slow, right?), but that Stonecloaker 'can help'. Grunt removes 2 cards by turn 3, and then 2 more each time while Stonecloaker nails one/turn starting turn 3. Besides, the way I see it, sac'ing him to remove Bridges doesn't seem like a great tech: if you're still alive by turn 3 they're probably slow playing (subpar hand), in which case removing 2+X cards/turn to lock them out of the game seems fine (starting with 2 Bridges if you're afraid of tokens; again, if you're still alive by turn3 it implies a rather slow start, so more than 2 Bridges is unlikely), or have already flashbacked Therapy for lots of tokens. Either way, it doesn't seem great.
What I meant was that Grunt's upkeep can be good vs Ichorid, but against faster starts, you're usually better off just letting him die to zap Bridges.
Ichorid, on average, kills turn 3.something if left unmolested, so you'll likely still be alive by turn three, even if you didn't do anything to them early. For all the talk of turn one kills, it doesn't happen often, especially as the deck adapts to deal with hate.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
I'm going to be the random guy that generally reads without saying anything, but I have to cast in my vote on Samurai being far better than grunt in the dredge match. The reason being that samurai outright solves a situation unconditionally unless he is killed, period. Grunt will penalize a slow hand and have the conditional use of removing a bridge and the cost of saccing...Perhaps I missed something, but I fail to see why the merits of either card are being argued because Maëlig runs both.
The only card I see as suspect to any sort of debate is stonecloaker, which performs the a similar function as grunt in the dredge match(aka: penalizing a slow start). As far as overall utility is concerned grunt will empty a graveyard faster and allows you to do the really rare wayfarer+wasteland recycling thing if things actually move in that direction...which they do pretty rarely in my realm of experience.
Stonecloaker could fit in some metagames, I suppose, but they seem strictly inferior to other options for a build that intends to go against a largely undefined metagame.
That's just what I think though.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Ichorid, on average, kills turn 3.something if left unmolested, so you'll likely still be alive by turn three
Arguing over the average kill turn is pointless. What I meant was that if there's actually a threatening number of Bridges in their 'yard, the damage is probably done already, since you can't remove them at instant speed, so they can just flashback Therapies to produce tokens during their turn, and pass. You'll remove Bridges but that won't save you from the tokens.
My point being: Grunt is probably at its best to fight off slow hands from Ichorid, and seal the deal; removing dredgers/ichorids, and preventing them from getting their engine going. It's NOT an answer to Bridges, it's too slow/not instant speed.
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I have to cast in my vote on Samurai being far better than grunt in the dredge match.
I'm sorry, but has ANYONE said otherwise? It's obvious that Samurai is king against Ichorid, it's in this MU that it shines most.
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I fail to see why the merits of either card are being argued because Maëlig runs both.
Maybe you should read the thread before replying. Kuma argued that SotPC, Grunt and Stonecloaker were good against Ichorid and Maelig answered that Stonecloaker was meh at best in this MU. Kuma replied that Stonecloaker was a bit useful but that he thought Grunts didn't help much except to remove Bridges, and I found that weird. Hence the discussion.
The fact that Maelig runs Samurai too doesn't mean we shouldn't try to evaluate the other creatures' value in this match up, does it?
Quote:
Stonecloaker could fit in some metagames, I suppose, but they seem strictly inferior to other options for a build that intends to go against a largely undefined metagame.
Stonecloaker isn't in the deck to fight Ichorid or Breakfast. And it's not competing with Grunt or Samurai for the slot, what are you on about? It's a good all around utility creature, period. (Mangara bounce, combat tricks, save a creature from removal, etc.)
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
I tried Eijango Castle from Kamigawa vs the burn matchup, can potentially force them to overextend vs isamaru and mangara. Mostly Isamaru, since they woudl at that point need to fireblast him.
