[Deck] TES - The EPIC Storm

Is Vexing Shusher considered to be a better option than Xantid Swarm solely because of Counterbalance? Against regular countermagic, the two seem relatively equivalent (both will generally require you to untap with them in play, both will die to the same removal), while Shusher is clearly more effective against Counterbalance. This seems to be the primary reason for running Shusher, correct? On a related note, have you found that you have enough mana to support Shusher effectively against an active Counterbalance and Top?

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Originally Posted by b4r0n

Is Vexing Shusher considered to be a better option than Xantid Swarm solely because of Counterbalance? Against regular countermagic, the two seem relatively equivalent (both will generally require you to untap with them in play, both will die to the same removal), while Shusher is clearly more effective against Counterbalance. This seems to be the primary reason for running Shusher, correct? On a related note, have you found that you have enough mana to support Shusher effectively against an active Counterbalance and Top?

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Uhh it can't be countered. Dodges Chalice also. It is just better. Don't play suboptimal cards because of cost. More! Can be used when it came into play.

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Originally Posted by Jak.

Uhh it can't be countered. Dodges Chalice also. It is just better. Don't play suboptimal cards because of cost. More! Can be used when it came into play.

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Is the uncounterability worth the extra mana in his cost, as well as the need to invest an additional mana in his ability in order to deal with the counter that would have been spent on the Shusher? In other words, you're paying R/G R/G for Shusher, then R/G to deal with the counter in their hand when they use it, versus G for Xantid, which either strips the counter from their hand or nullifies it the next turn.

Regarding Chalice, I'm currently running 4 Shattering Sprees in my board, so those would come before Shusher would. I suppose I could see bringing in Shusher in addition, but generally I find the 3 Sprees + Wishing for the 4th to be enough hate. Speaking of sufficient hate, aren't Shushers + Chants + Blasts slightly excessive for beating blue? Do you find that this dilutes the deck too much?

I'm genuinely curious about this. I'm not that impressed by Shusher, and I'd like to understand why people have found him to be optimal.

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Originally Posted by b4r0n

Is the uncounterability worth the extra mana in his cost, as well as the need to invest an additional mana in his ability in order to deal with the counter that would have been spent on the Shusher? In other words, you're paying R/G R/G for Shusher, then R/G to deal with the counter in their hand when they use it, versus G for Xantid, which either strips the counter from their hand or nullifies it the next turn.

Regarding Chalice, I'm currently running 4 Shattering Sprees in my board, so those would come before Shusher would. I suppose I could see bringing in Shusher in addition, but generally I find the 3 Sprees + Wishing for the 4th to be enough hate. Speaking of sufficient hate, aren't Shushers + Chants + Blasts slightly excessive for beating blue? Do you find that this dilutes the deck too much?

I'm genuinely curious about this. I'm not that impressed by Shusher, and I'd like to understand why people have found him to be optimal.

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Counters are not that hard to deal with. Counterbalance and Counters is what is dificult. Shusher gives us the answer to it. It is uncounterable and they have to find their 4 Swords to kill it. All you need is RR or RW to win the game. He is that good. Guaranteeing a resolved Chant or the destruction of CB is what this deck needed.

Chalice was just an additional use it has. I run 1 SS, so I would leave it in the board and probably bring in Shusher. I doubt I will, but it has a lot of uses.

Shusher solves Chalice and Counterbalance problems all at once. I had trouble finding room for additional Shattering Sprees in the SB alongside REB's, but Shusher freed up lots of room.

Also, the additional mana you pay for Shusher is negligible, since you can generally wait a bit longer against decks which you're bringing it in.

Vexing Shusher is the nut high because it wins games that would other wise be lost. A Xantid Swarm draws out a Force of Will, but it leaves the Counterspell in hand, where Vexing Shusher just tells your opponent to completely piss off. With the exception of Stifle, Vexing Shusher feels like an uncounterable Mind Twist against blue that also gives you a fighting chance against your worst case scenarios of Counterbalance and Chalice of the Void.

Just being able to protect Burning Wish -> Hull Breach thru' Counterbalance has been priceless.

I've been raping the local metagame so hard with Vexing Shusher that our store has just sold out of Blue blasts, and that's no damn lie.

ANother thing about Shusher is that it's really annoying to kill with EE since it will also take out your Goyf/Cbalance/Confidant/etc.

Well, it also beats for 2, isn't it? :tongue:

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Originally Posted by GreenOne

Well, it also beats for 2, isn't it? :tongue:

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It's not an invalid point, I've won a couple games from SSG/Shusher beats, being able to drop the storm count by 1 is always useful.

I am in love with it. I finally feel comfortable playing Landstill and Thresh. Before, the deck really needed to win quicky before CB came online, but now I can sculp my hand with cantrips and then combo out with ease. It is awesome. Please run it over Swarm, his days are over with Shusher.

is shusher that strong, so it'll degenerate the meta ? like keeping the aggro decks out cause every ass will pick up combo, which only gets trouble from well tuned ***** versions with sideboards heavily dedicated to fighting combo with shusher (Blue Blasts, etc.).

i haven't played a game with shusher so far, but as you are praising it seems to be awesome :/ imo mainy players kept distance from combo bc they beat the shit out of aggro, but then get stopped by some ***** version, which tends to be in the higher brackets very often. i know some combo guys who would love to pick up combo but play pox or heavily disruptive suicide decks instead, cause they have a better game with it vs ***** and still a decent one vs aggro.

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Originally Posted by zefhek

is shusher that strong, so it'll degenerate the meta ? like keeping the aggro decks out cause every ass will pick up combo, which only gets trouble from well tuned ***** versions with sideboards heavily dedicated to fighting combo with shusher (Blue Blasts, etc.).

i haven't played a game with shusher so far, but as you are praising it seems to be awesome :/ imo mainy players kept distance from combo bc they beat the shit out of aggro, but then get stopped by some ***** version, which tends to be in the higher brackets very often. i know some combo guys who would love to pick up combo but play pox or heavily disruptive suicide decks instead, cause they have a better game with it vs ***** and still a decent one vs aggro.

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Shusher isn't degenerate, it just allows TES players to play around counterspells and counterbalance. Basically, it allows us to goldfish with an opponent across from us. Eventually Thresh players will adapt and play Blue Blasts down the line, yes, however, we've been playing Red Blast the entire time. We can just counter thier blue blast and make our Red Blast uncounterable.

What you're failing to realize is that combo is normally up at the higher brackets since it has a lot of good match-ups. Once it meets Threshold now, it doesn't have to be afraid because of Vexing Shusher. In the end, people will pick up TES because of Shusher or TES players will see the value of Shusher and start winning more tough match-ups. Hopefully both, but it doesn't really matter.

i realize that combo is always at the higher brackets, and that's the time when it starts passing games to *****, which it won't with shusher. at least not as often as before.

but i think there is also a big m´number who passed combo in favour of playing a deck with a good matchup vs ***** and those will now be coming back to combo (especially tes) cause it seems to me that it offers the most equitity atm vs a random meta. and more tes could mean less aggro. but then blasts could be enough to balance the whole thing :/

just waiting for a combo summer... :D

You'll see two things, the first thing you'll see is that Storm hate and Goblin hate will converge in most SBs, i.e Storm/Goblin hate will be Stifles to circumvent Vexing Shusher and Blue blasts to remove it. The second thing you'll see is that since Storm hate will be concentrated on dealing with Vexing Shusher, the control or aggro-control deck will be using more instant based hate than permanent based hate. This creates more virtual card advantage for Orim's Chant when it turns off Stifle and Blue blasts, and it reduces the amount of permanent hate Storm has to remove. Since Vexing Shusher is already an answer to Counterbalance and Chalice of the Void, Storm is gaining the upper hand in match ups that were once unfavorable.

It's not so much Vexing Shusher is an "Oops, I win" button for combo, it's that Counterbalance isn't a "Oops, I win" button for control any more.

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Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

You'll see two things, the first thing you'll see is that Storm hate and Goblin hate will converge in most SBs, i.e Storm/Goblin hate will be Stifles to circumvent Vexing Shusher and Blue blasts to remove it. The second thing you'll see is that since Storm hate will be concentrated on dealing with Vexing Shusher, the control or aggro-control deck will be using more instant based hate than permanent based hate. This creates more virtual card advantage for Orim's Chant when it turns off Stifle and Blue blasts, and it reduces the amount of permanent hate Storm has to remove. Since Vexing Shusher is already an answer to Counterbalance and Chalice of the Void, Storm is gaining the upper hand in match ups that were once unfavorable.

It's not so much Vexing Shusher is an "Oops, I win" button for combo, it's that Counterbalance isn't a "Oops, I win" button for control any more.

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Breathweapon, I regret saying this but... I've been liking you more and more every day. He's pretty much right.

EDIT: I updated the opening post with some new information.

So, have people tried replacing the Shattering Sprees with Serenitys, the non-wish target ones for SBing in? Picking off Chrome Moxes aside, having another set of outs against Arcane Laboratory, Rule of Law, In the Eye of Chaos, Pyrostatic Pillar, Runed Halo and Counterbalance has been useful in play testing. You don't get the uncounterable Chalice of the Void removal against Faerie Stompy or AfFOWnity, and you can't resolve it thru' Chalice of the Void @2 with out Vexing Shusher, but it deals with a ton of random Enchantment based combo hate that TES can struggle against. Rule of Law is especially annoying and easily SBable in Landstill for example.

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Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

So, have people tried replacing the Shattering Sprees with Serenitys, the non-wish target ones for SBing in? Picking off Chrome Moxes aside, having another set of outs against Arcane Laboratory, Rule of Law, In the Eye of Chaos, Pyrostatic Pillar, Runed Halo and Counterbalance has been useful in play testing. You don't get the uncounterable Chalice of the Void removal against Faerie Stompy or AfFOWnity, and you can't resolve it thru' Chalice of the Void @2 with out Vexing Shusher, but it deals with a ton of random Enchantment based combo hate that TES can struggle against. Rule of Law is especially annoying and easily SBable in Landstill for example.

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I would rather just run Tranquility and Shattering Spree. The ability to get them game one is why they will not get cut. I run, right now, Hull Breach, SS, and Tranquility just so I don't lose to random and DS. Maybe if those decks trouble you that much, but for me I am fine wit the set up.

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Originally Posted by Jak.

I would rather just run Tranquility and Shattering Spree. The ability to get them game one is why they will not get cut. I run, right now, Hull Breach, SS, and Tranquility just so I don't lose to random and DS. Maybe if those decks trouble you that much, but for me I am fine wit the set up.

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I didn't mean cut the wish targets for the Serenitys, I meant SB Serenity in addition to the wish targets:

SB

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Infernal Contract
1 Hull Breach
1 Pyroclasm
4 Serenity
4 Vexing Shusher

Non wish target outs to Enchantments seems good considering Counterbalance can't guarantee a 2cc card to counter it and Rule of Law is obnoxious.

I'm not getting enough mileage out of Pyroblast/Thoughtseize and Serenity has just been solid in the handful of matches I've boarded it in.

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Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

I didn't mean cut the wish targets for the Serenitys, I meant SB Serenity in addition to the wish targets:

SB

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Infernal Contract
1 Hull Breach
1 Pyroclasm
4 Serenity
4 Vexing Shusher

Non wish target outs to Enchantments seems good considering Counterbalance can't guarantee a 2cc card to counter it and Rule of Law is obnoxious.

I'm not getting enough mileage out of Pyroblast/Thoughtseize and Serenity has just been solid in the handful of matches I've boarded it in.

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I like your board. Serenity seems strong game 2 and 3, and Hull Breach should be fine for taking out Counterbalance as if Burning Wish goes through, it usually does also. Though I don't think that we're so worried about counterbalance anymore, so we may want to devote the rest of the SB to ways of removing 3Sphere and the like. In that case a 1 Spree/3 Serenity split could be strong.

I still like Pyroblast though to take out CB. I also like being able to remove multiple enchantments and artifacts game one.