[Deck] It's the Fear - Control in the new Era

This is a deck you have to play the shit out of. It has weaknesses like any other deck, but the cards by themselves are some of the most powerful in the game.

I feel like deeding when I have a counterbalance out is a waste of a counterbalance but I think you are looking at the card all wrong.

If you are winning then who cares?

If you are stalemated then it is you in control...when you are sitting on a sweeper the worst it can always get is a stalemate. They have to make a move that pushes you to deed. I.e. if you are playing against landstill and you have a deed on the table it is going to take forever for them to put something relevant on the board and when it does you can get into a counter battle. Remeber that playing a goyf is going to make an opponent committ more resources to nuking him or to the board so they don't die in short order.

When you are losing: we all agree deed is normally very good here.

@Deep6er: I am interested to see you suggest sometimes going for the "turbo pile", i.e. explosive, explosive, ruins or deed, deed, deed instead of explosive, ruins, loam, or something that allows for a little recursion...I do understand that we always don't have the luxury of an extra turn, and that there is 3 more intuitions in the deck.

What do you guys think about the witness slot. I hardly ever intuition for her and When she's in my hand I either am winning/Do not have anything fun in my grave or Do not have the GG to cast her. Most of the time I dont even think "wish I had a witness right now".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Waikiki

What do you guys think about the witness slot. I hardly ever intuition for her and When she's in my hand I either am winning/Do not have anything fun in my grave or Do not have the GG to cast her. Most of the time I dont even think "wish I had a witness right now".

---

This is exactly why I cut witness from my list. I've mentioned this before and Gearhart really likes the card so I doubt further discussion will help.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Waikiki

What do you guys think about the witness slot. I hardly ever intuition for her and When she's in my hand I either am winning/Do not have anything fun in my grave or Do not have the GG to cast her. Most of the time I dont even think "wish I had a witness right now".

---

Judging from my personal experience, Witness is never a dead card to say the least. It serves CA and is the perfect choice for slot #3 in Intuition piles if you cannot assemble the perfect 3.

I also find myself Stronghold-returning Witness just as frequently as Goyfs in mid-late game situations, since it gives you all the answers you need, while chump blocking their biggest dude/attacking for 2/turn.

Why doens't this deck run Gigapede again? Just the mana cost? It seems amazing in any game that goes long. Although it might not be as good with Intuition as it was with Gifts Ungiven, since it guarantees you won't get the other two cards. Still, it's often a bomb by itself.

Also, I'm going to back Dave on Extirpate sucking. It's card disadvantage in 9 out of 10 cases and not worth running maindeck, and less potent than a host of other graveyard hate post-board. I know it seems like it must be efficient because it's a one mana instant with split second, and it fools you into thinking it's a 4-for-1, but those 4 don't count unless they were in hand. You'd be better off just running Haunting Echoes. It costs more mana, but it actually wins the game. Either way you have to sit around and wait for them to get shit into their yard anyway.

I agree with IBA, a Gigapede or two would help solve the win conditions issue. Also, if there is such massive opposition to running 'Pede or something, how about 2-3x living wish?

Extirpate is great gy hate for some strategies, bad gy hate for others. For example, there is NOTHING that deals with LftL quite like Extirpate does. My personal theory is that Extirpate was specifically printed to deal with Loam, which is why it has Split Second, so you can't cycle a land to dredge loam in response like you can do with crypt or macabre.

Extirpate can also be good if you're playing against a deck with limited win conditions as a way to make it impossible for them to win the game, which makes it much more likely that you will win. 'Pating a 'Goyf from ITF right now is pretty much a guaranteed win. You can blather all you want about a single shackles being a win, but ITS NOT. Yeah, they'll lose more dudes powering through one of their own creatures, but they'll still get through.

Dude, it doesn't matter if you don't believe it, but I've done it. Quite a few times at that. Sometimes my Tarmogoyfs get Swords'ed. Other times I just don't draw them. Witness, Shackles, and Etched Oracle get in there just fine. Gigapede costs a lot of mana and cards for a very small body that doesn't always beat Tarmogoyf. Especially considering the fact that It's the Fear can put all the usually played card types into the graveyard.

Extirpate doesn't really deal with Life from the Loam because of Burning Wish. Most lists that run Life from the Loam run Burning Wish.

Also Living Wish wouldn't be a very good choice here. The sideboard is precisely done to make sure that the bad matchups are correctly boarded for.

Also, have you ever played Shackles? A constant two for one will wipe out an opposing team's army. Plus, you still have Swords and Explosives/Deed.

Yes, I've played Shackles, I actually played it waaaaay back in mir std before people figured out it was good, when it was still selling for $1-$3. And you CANNOT beat good players with good decks with a single Shackles as your win condition.

Why are you so opposed to adding win cons anyway? Stoic Angel would be solid for you, its in your colors and we already know about it. Gigapede is also a very, very good win con that is hard to deal with, and about 90% of the time it trades with goyf, but unlike goyf, it recurs itself. I'd even be happy with a Decree or Worm Harvest here. Call the Skybreaker is another option you could use for a resilient win con. Nantuko Monastery is a pretty solid, resilient beater and you've already got recursion for it with LftL.

Throughout this whole thread, almost everyone who's tested your deck has said "Needs more/diversified win conditions, weak manabase" and you basically respond with "You're wrong, no one plays those strategies/cards, ITF is ublar". See, the thing is, your opponent wants to win too. Its not like people AREN'T packing hate for your strategies. No one is arguing that this is a bad deck or general design shell. We're saying these are weaknesses we've noticed and maybe you should think about ways to address them.

With your current sideboard, for example, you could cut a Crypt for a Macabre, two K. Grip for Wickerbaugh Elder and Tabernacle, and a Disk for Dust Bowl. Still the same level of hate for just about everything you had before, but now you've got additional swarm defense, recurrable gy hate game 1, an additional "can't play CB or LS with this on the board card", and a way to achieve Wastelock without casting loam every single turn.

Also, you should really add a few more basics. -1 sea, +1 swamp. If you had a way to get Forest besides intution, i'd recommend one of those as a basic as well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by morgan_coke

Yes, I've played Shackles, I actually played it waaaaay back in mir std before people figured out it was good, when it was still selling for $1-$3. And you CANNOT beat good players with good decks with a single Shackles as your win condition.

Why are you so opposed to adding win cons anyway? Stoic Angel would be solid for you, its in your colors and we already know about it. Gigapede is also a very, very good win con that is hard to deal with, and about 90% of the time it trades with goyf, but unlike goyf, it recurs itself. I'd even be happy with a Decree or Worm Harvest here. Call the Skybreaker is another option you could use for a resilient win con. Nantuko Monastery is a pretty solid, resilient beater and you've already got recursion for it with LftL.

Throughout this whole thread, almost everyone who's tested your deck has said "Needs more/diversified win conditions, weak manabase" and you basically respond with "You're wrong, no one plays those strategies/cards, ITF is ublar". See, the thing is, your opponent wants to win too. Its not like people AREN'T packing hate for your strategies. No one is arguing that this is a bad deck or general design shell. We're saying these are weaknesses we've noticed and maybe you should think about ways to address them.

With your current sideboard, for example, you could cut a Crypt for a Macabre, two K. Grip for Wickerbaugh Elder and Tabernacle, and a Disk for Dust Bowl. Still the same level of hate for just about everything you had before, but now you've got additional swarm defense, recurrable gy hate game 1, an additional "can't play CB or LS with this on the board card", and a way to achieve Wastelock without casting loam every single turn.

Also, you should really add a few more basics. -1 sea, +1 swamp. If you had a way to get Forest besides intution, i'd recommend one of those as a basic as well.

---

There is a reason people used to say solidarity was an awful deck unless piloted by gearhart, it's as much pilot skill as the deck.
This deck is very skill intensive and involves a lot of choices, so if you don't play it well it can look a mess.
Dave has clearly done his testing and optimised his list to his piloting skill, so without being all fanboy , He knows what he is talking about (same as bryant with TES or Di with survival).
I'm not saying that innovation shouldn't occur but he's explained his reasonings 3 times, and if you want to add more wincons because you can't get it to work then go for it but give up trying to change his mind as his tourny results clearly show he's not doing badly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Belgareth

There is a reason people used to say solidarity was an awful deck unless piloted by gearhart, it's as much pilot skill as the deck.
This deck is very skill intensive and involves a lot of choices, so if you don't play it well it can look a mess.
Dave has clearly done his testing and optimized his list to his piloting skill, so without being all fanboy , He knows what he is talking about (same as bryant with TES or Di with survival).
I'm not saying that innovation shouldn't occur but he's explained his reasonings 3 times, and if you want to add more wincons because you can't get it to work then go for it but give up trying to change his mind as his tourny results clearly show he's not doing badly.

---

Gearhart, sounds like you have a stalker on your hands...........

Anyways back to the rest of the people, right now I am trying the etched oracle in place of the togs(which I still think is the best option) just so I have viable proof that it is bad, but when it comes down to it, goyf by itself is not enough win conditions but adding etched oracle is literally, and I mean just enough to make the win conditions get around extirpate and swords and still bash in for the win, how do you guys think landstill wins, their creatures get swords and extirpated just like ours, they just learn to protect them better. Which is one of the things that like Gearhart, we have both learned to protect our creatures, I have many of times played against person using their whole hand with extirpates to get rid of my goyfs, just for me to get countertop stable and drop a witness for a counterspell and beat in for the win.

And no your right shackles by themselves usually wont get a win against a great player, but it also wont lose either. I have won many matches on playing 1 shackles and a witness.


Now Morgan, Your quote that went somethings like this.....

Throughout this whole thread, almost everyone who's tested your deck has said "Needs more/diversified win conditions, weak manabase" and you basically respond with "You're wrong, no one plays those strategies/cards, ITF is ublar". See, the thing is, your opponent wants to win too. Its not like people AREN'T packing hate for your strategies. No one is arguing that this is a bad deck or general design shell. We're saying these are weaknesses we've noticed and maybe you should think about ways to address them.

Not to be a Gearhart fan (Because I am not, I don't like the man and feel I can play the deck better than him:tongue: ) he has addressed the ideas of many people and are just trying to keep the deck a control deck and not letting many of the people on this thread bastardize it. Truly I have stuck with his first list with togs(withs a couple of manabase and countertop numbers changed) and have brought my self up to 3rdish( I think I dropped down to 5th after having to drop a tourny because of medical reasons) in rankings of all of the Ohio and I think top 20 in the U.S. with that old list, it is still one of the better builds and only runs 4 goyfs 2 togs and 1 witness. maybe some of the people that are making suggestions are right, but the word of 50 people who don't make top 8 ever at there local tourny are probably not smarter than 2 people who have won more tournies than they can count with it.(meaning me and Gearhart)(This is not saying that everyone posting is bad at magic, a bunch of the posters here have done very well in GPs and such. but the source is a very very very very big community, especially have seeing the results of the Source tourny, congrats Klaus!!!! I have been following the source for a long time and haven't seen many of you posting on here before, so its hard to see any true credit in your ability.)


Oh and keep witness

I have never had any problem with win conditions. What I do have had problems with is experience with the deck. I wanted to take this deck to a tournament this weekend but I think I will take a different deck. I've lost alot of games that I could have just won if I didn't make a small play mistake.

Like I had a situation vs Aggro loam last day.

My hand contained A witness + sea.

I had 3 lands in play and CB+Top active with one mana open.
My top3 starting at the top was: CB,Fow,Brainstorm. I pass the turn. I knew He had a devastating dreams in his hand.

His turn he plays a Terravore! damn if I had kept the Bstorm on top I could have had a CC of 1 2 and 3 on the top but now I just lost because I couldn't find a stp in time anymore.

@ landstill101: You should really read over what you write because a lot of people would take it as offensive. However, giving you the benefit of the doubt I'll assume you haven't intended it.

@Everyone saying change this/that: You know what I think you should change it for your deck. I can tell you that this deck is one of the deceptively hardest decks to play where a single mistake will cost you the game.

I have played the shit out of Deep6er's latest list (about 400 matches or so) in tournaments, against randoms and good players on MWS. This deck is as elegant and complicated as it gets, short of doomsday combo.

You know, when I started playing this I scratched my head and said to myself...wow that manabase is shit. Well guess what, the 2 islands do get you the blue up that you need and the green (and lesser extent black) are really only needed as a 1 time use. I.e. fetch Tropical cast Tarmogoyf, that's nice that you wastelanded my Tropical meet Tarmogoyf.

Strangely, white is more necessary to have on standby than you would ever think (at least more so than black). Swords is uber important and may be required to be brought online early as a reactive measure. The basic plains gives you that, as a non wasteable mana source so you can develop your manabase. The Tropical, and Sea are proactive and you can just blow a fetch when you need it, cast your deed, or goyf and they can do what they want to your mana base.

I would happily take this manabase and deck over a 3 or 4 color lanstill with a lot of land hate.

I've been on Deep6er's side of this argument before. You create a new deck. You know it exceptionally well. It wins for you. You play it flawlessly. You share it. People criticize it. They keep saying the same things. You keep refuting their arguments. They have trouble with the deck. You don't. I get where he's coming from. I also realized, eventually, that the deck could be better. So I started testing all these ideas that I didn't like, and 98%(ish) of the time, I was right, but every so often, I wasn't. It's the same here.

That's why I made the comment about being invested in/objective about it. Deep6er may very well be able to get the deck to perform for him with it's current setup forever. The vast majority of other people won't. That's why I'm arguing so hard for the inclusion of more win conditions and a less vulnerable manabase.

On another topic entirely, has anyone experimented with Faerie Macabre in place of Tormod's Crypt in the board? This is a quick comparison of their strong and weak points (crypt, macabre)

Costs Zero Mana
Costs Zero Mana

Works at instant speed
Works at instant speed after being cast

Recurs with Volrath's Stronghold
Recurs with Academy Ruins

Countered by Stifle
Countered by Stifle

Immune to counterspells, chalice, 3sphere, etc.
Not immune to countering

Works on your turn zero/opponents turn one
Doesn't work until your turn one

Eliminates two cards
Eliminates the entire graveyard

Costs three for Counterbalance
Costs zero for Counterbalance

Can be a surprise
Is never a surprise

One other point in Macabre's favor is that it shuts down an IGG chain even better than FoW does. I'm not sure Macabre is a better card, but I think it does deserve to be tested. (vs. Ichy, the correct play is to zap their DR target and a Bridge or two bridges if that will be enough. Hitting Narcomoeba's with their triggers on the stack is also strong.

Interesting post above.

You know, I never would have believed that recursion kills standstills i.e. if you keep recurring your preferred artifact or creature unless the opponent has a decent clock they eventually run out of answers no matter how many cards they draw.

I can't stress it enough for all those that play this deck and want to add kill conditions keep playing it... I would argue that the better you become with it the less you will need...UNLESS you have an overly aggressive meta where you may need another dude or way to end the game before they end you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by morgan_coke

Costs three for Counterbalance
Costs zero for Counterbalance

---

If you're talking about strictly the removing cards from the graveyard, Faerie Macabre doesn't even trigger Counterbalance since it's not a spell (I know you know this from other points, but I think you may have missed this one).

also,

Can be a beater/chumper
Cannot be a beater/chumper

I think he is talking about it being a three for your own Counterbalance. You probably wouldn't want graveyard removal against decks with Counterbalance anyway (except maybe the mirror).

Let me address some of these points, because I think some of them are misleading.

1) Yes, Faerie Macabre can work before you get a turn. But there are some things that make this misleading.

1a) You won game one, or are going into game three. The former is HIGHLY unlikely, while the latter is possible.

1b) What makes it misleading is the fact that most Ichorid players board out the combo in sideboarded games. You don't have to worry about a turn one kill because it CAN'T HAPPEN.

2) Countered by Stifle? What decks pack cards that you want to hit in the graveyard while simultaneously playing Stifle?

3) The fact that Faerie Macabre costs three is only relevant in the Aggro Loam match. However, Crypt is better in that match because of it's ability to shrink Terravore.

4) Surprise value is not as powerful as you make it out to be. Not when the comparison is to sheer power. Faerie Macabre does not have the same amount of power that Tormod's Crypt does, and that's important. In a match where you're down so far, you need the most powerful card (that also works synergistically with the deck) you can get.

I prefer Tormod's Crypt over Faerie Macabre because of how much more powerful Crypt is.

There is one more thing that is occasionally relevant. Tormod's crypt sits on the board safe from thoughseize but open to artifact removal where as the faerie does not in either case.

While a dropped Tormod's Crypt changes the whole playstyle of an Ichorid player which a macabre couldn't.

Fred,

That's kind of the point I was making about surprise. A crypt on the field lets them know its there. They change playstyle to adapt.

Macabre's mere presence in the deck forces them to decide whether or not to play around it as long as you have unknown cards in hand. If they ignore the possibility and you have it, they have a high probability of losing. If not, they played slow/around it for nothing.

I honestly don't know which is better. I just thought it would be a good discussion to have.

Deep,

Countered by Stifle should have read "countered by Stifle/Needle". Lots of Ichy decks do run Needles.