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I thought that land, Ritual, is just a bit more common than Land, a combination of 3-4 cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
And, FYI, I was referring to turn 1-2 (check posts above). Even Land, Petal go. can enable a turn 2 Necro.
But maybe in the magical world where you play Mtg, turn 1 land,triple ritual, Bargain and/or combinations of 3-4 cards involving white creatures (!), and Cabal Therapy(!) in non-Dredge combo decks (all in turn 1-2) are more common.
Rick already addressed this. There's lots of redundant ways to get a turn 2 Yawgmoth's Bargain with Academy Rector or Show and Tell. This is because it's a lot easier to generate one colored mana and 2 or 3 mana of any color than triple black.Quote:
Originally Posted by kiblast
There's no debate that it's easier to get Necro into play on turn 1 / 2. Bargain is by far the better card drawing engine as it wins now compared to next turn. A turn 2 Necro is still not as good as a turn 3 Bargain, both of which are equally as easy to manage casting in those respective turns.Quote:
Originally Posted by kiblast
It is, it's a small online niche format, but back then during Necro era the pool was close to legacy as were the decks being played. Bargain sees play in storm decks, but it was released like last month(UD as a set).Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
Somebody brought this up in the Mental Misstep thread - it's probably better discussed here. With that card permeating the meta and driving combo strategies underground, would a Mystical Tutor unban be warranted?
It was also mentioned that ReAnimator with MM + MT would be ridiculous. This is true to some degree, although it would probably still lose to MM-powered Merfolk and Team America.
My thought on the matter is that while MT-powered ANT was kind of ridiculous, combo decks most likely need the added consistency to have a shot in a meta dominated by blue aggro-control and control decks with 16+ counterspells. Not to mention that you can always just MM the Tutor, lol. I'm interested to see if the current meta degenerates into board control vs. aggro, if that is the case, this might be the right move on WOTC's part, I don't know. Anyways, discuss.
We actually semi-proved this when we did the CYOS tournament last year. I played Necropotence Rock and having to adjust my manabase to facilitate Necro ended up with me going like 1-2 or something like that because I found myself getting manascrewed a lot.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
Although I lose to unlucky draws with decks that tend to not get unlucky draws.
I've had to mull to 3 with Elves before because I drew 2 hands with no lands, one hand with all lands, and another with no lands.
I once ran only 2 Mutavaults in Merfolk. Somehow I'd still manage hands like
Wasteland-Mutavault-LoA-Sovereign-Cursecatcher-Daze-Wasteland
on a regular basis.
I think Wizards should make an effort to mitigate my bad luck.
EDIT: By the way, IBA; do you have Shawn's list from the CYOS tourney? I remember having some of the most intense games of magic in my life against that deck and I don't even remember what it was.
Why are we even entertaining the idea that Necro can come off of the list? It can't. And Wizard's will never take off Bargain, so don't worry about it.
Dragon can easily come off, same with about 15 other cards.
Earthcraft seems like an easy one, Recruiter, Mystical, Land Tax, Hermit Druid, I wouldn't mind Frantic being taken off, but that could be dangerous, and, Mind's Desire is the same. Windfall might also be able to be taken off, Legacy players unload their hands quickly these days.
If Windfall becomes overly dominant, just play decks with LED. Vengevines.dec and Storm.dec will make Windfall look awkward :P
I think Windfall is quite fair these days. Its comparable card is Diminishing Returns, although being 1 mana less and no exiling 10 cards could be an easy argument that it's still a tad bit powerful compared to DR. However, something like Doomsday (castable off BBB from drit) or Show and Tell seems to be able to win games much better than cycling through a fresh hand that is dependent on an opponent's hand size.
Windfall deck can play LED as easily as the deck that supposedly "counter" it and benefit a lot from it. Also, i'm honestly sick of storm combo, we can unban other combo pieces like Dragon and Earthcraft first, so mb to open to more form of hate cards to be relevant. I'd even like to see bargain unbanned before it just because it isn't blue (and because i want to play Runeflare trap).Quote:
Originally Posted by Metalwalker
To be honest, I can't see Earthcraft being dominant in Legacy. The only deck that can play it is Elves, but a 2 mana investment to trigger a potential chain of combo on turn 2 is still fundamentally dependent on a secondary card: Glimpse of Nature. Earthcraft could be the Candelabra for Elves in Spiral Tide, but we already have Heritage Druid, and even then the problem with Elf combo has always been resolving Glimpse and chaining draws into a combo. The only benefit Elf combo has over something like Spanish Inquisition (similar style in chaining draws into a combo) is that Elves actually get some good aggro backup plan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gheizen64
I hope that Earthcraft and Land Tax will come off. I don't see them warping any metagames at all, definitely not at the level of how Knight of the Reliquary, Noble Hierarch, MM and a whole ton of recently printed cards has had an effect on Legacy.
Y, i'm pretty sure Earthcraft wouldn't be T1, but at least it would be a different kind of a combo deck if it were.Quote:
Originally Posted by Metalwalker
Earthcraft could potentially find its way into Enchantress, but the card still wouldn't be any more broken than combo options already available in Legacy.
I just really don't want to see Squirrel Craft again. It was a pain in the ass the first time around in Vintage. It was a terrible deck, but it really stifled your deck building since you had to keep it in mind that someone could make a million stupid squirrels on turn 2 if you weren't ready for it.
Land Tax, i am convinced they just are laughing it up over that one.
And why would it be different from elves combo, TES, AnT, Belcher or something? The combo is countered by so many things (revoker, needle, enchantment destruction, discard, counters, flying creatures, caltrops, Deed, etc...) compared to storm it isn't really constricting at all. This isn't counting the fact enlightned tutor is also countered by i-run-4-in-every-deck MM.Quote:
Originally Posted by dahcmai
The MM being the next best thing in Legacy, would it be safe to allow Land Tax?
I have this Parfait deck sleeved up and always ready to be deployed in case WotC changes their mind.
Tax would be fine even in standard probably, the thing must be an inside joke of WotC.Quote:
Originally Posted by (nameless one)
It wouldn't be fine in Standard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gheizen64
Do you really want to see more Caw-whatever decks in Standard?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HyperboleQuote:
Originally Posted by (nameless one)
I get the feeling Vial wouldn't be necessary. I'm pretty sure Recruiter > 4 Ringleader (or something similar) is more or less unbeatable by control.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
Or you can do it like the old Gob-vantage deck lists, which are closer to Sligh Goblin.Quote:
Originally Posted by Amon Amarth
what really needs to come off is mind twist.
Unbanning Recruiter would be scary, yet it'd make Goblins a deck again. Recruiter is just made of frightening. I'm not sure if Food Chain would even be the direction the deck would take anymore, given how Recruiter would allow Goblins to play disruption while solving the "Oh no Ringleader's worse" dilemma. I'd play the thing, in any case, but don't hold your breath here. I'd play the deck again if Recruiter could happen.
My gut feeling is that the next B/R session will have absolutely no changes, due to the fact that they only like to change the list when the format gets stale. With Mental Misstep in existence, the format is anything but stale right now, but I expect there to be some changes two updates from now. Don't be surprised if Goblin Recruiter joins Land Tax in that unbanning spree.
EDIT: Also, I've reversed my stance on Mind Twist coming off. It shouldn't. Far too many semi-colorless ramp decks are capable of producing obscene mana on turn two, and the prospect of 5-6 card Mind Twists hitting before you get enough time to drop a Teeg or do much else is horrifying.
Semi-Colorless decks that are able to produce obscene amount of mana by turn 2 are MUD, MUD and MUD, and MUD wouldn't play twist.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
I'm not sure why FCG would want to play disruption if you can just kill people. I assume you are talking for the combo match, which is what your SB is for. Speaking of which, Thorn of Amethyst is le funny here.
Those same decks that can ramp out super fast Mind Twists are also the ones that can dump things like Sundering Titan into play, probably more often since Titan is colorless. The artifact ramp decks aren't short of ways to blow you out of the game. Their Achilles Heel is consistency. Black doesn't give you anything else, short of Mind Twist, so it's a bad splash too.
I tend to agree. Most likely, there will be no changes. I cannot imagine anything getting banned right now. Pehaps if a card seems really nuts at GP Providence, something could happen, but I doubt it. Because Mental Misstep is already one of the best cards in the format, the best unbanning candidates are one-drops. They might unban a couple one-drops, but I don't see why they would do it so soon. It would make more sense to wait a few months when they are able to better gage the full impact of Mental Misstep.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
Goblins had enough trouble with Tarmogoyf and Jitte, then Wild Nacatl and friends joined the party and more recently, Stoneforge Mystic. Now Mental Misstep counters the 2 key cards of the deck (Aether Vial and Goblin Lackey). Goblins is totally unplayable right now. Unban Goblin Recruiter already!
EDIT: And while you're at it, print a Goblin Qasali Pridemage because Tin Street Hooligan sucks.
They see me trollin'.... They hatin'....Quote:
Originally Posted by SurFitOfTheVine
So, Mental Misstep...about time to get the banhammer out and ban...Brainstorm!
Okay, just hear me out, I know y'all love our own Ancestral Recall. But the format just went up from 1 to 2 free counters on the draw, and from 2 to 3 (incl. Daze) on the play. So first turn window for Vial/Welder/Thoughtseize etc. just shunk from 54% to 7% on the play (not counting mulligans, blue card and whatnot). While, on the play, the blue mage was already holding, statistically speaking, 1,05 FoW/Daze, going up to 1,6 when MM is added to the mix. Speaking of adding to the mix, there's also that Island, free to use for Spell Pierce, Stifle, and you guessed it Brainstorm. While the Brainstorm is only going to be there half of the time, other half Preordain/Ponder, it does increase the average free counter count to a whopping 2,2.
I'm somewhat fine with blue "reliably" having 1 free counter on the draw and 2 on the play, well, not really, but I'm not here to bitch about that. I do have a problem with instant speed though. As dominating as blue is in the forthcoming MM-era, I really think blue reliability should come at sorcery speed. Forcing the blue mages to commit to card quality, and strategic decisions on their own turn. (leave Island open for Stifle?, fetch basic or dual? what to keep in hand and what on top? etc...)
In adition a rehash of the old arguments: protects you from Seize/Duress/IoK, whoa fetches! and yadiyadiyaa.../end rant
In conclusion, winning the die roll doesn't mean shit anymore unless you're playing blue or not playing against blue, and Brainstorm only makes this worse, time for it to go.
I think it's early to talk about banning anything.
MUD decks can get an active Mox Diamond + Sol Land (Grim Monolith) by turn one with ease. I wouldn't mind testing that in MUD if they ever allowed Mind Twist.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gheizen64
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
Basically this. Nothing so far is degenerate like SotF was back in December. Mental Misstep is good and made some decks better (Control, Merfolk) and weakened some others (Goblins), but this is more of a format shift and not a repeat of the rise of degenerate decks.
100% agree that it's too early to conclude on anything right now, but MDB resume very well what I think about Brainstorm. I think it's the obvious candidate for the next ban and if blue keep is actual level of domination in the next 3-6 months, I think that Brainstorm would have to go.
What is funny, in the same time is that Merfolk will be untouch by this ban, as the only blue deck not playing Brainstorm, except by the fact that less blue decks in the format mean fewer good matchups for them.
You used 4 a cards combo to make your opponent discard 2 at random (diamond+ discard land + sol + twist). How is that strong?Quote:
Originally Posted by (nameless one)
Mind twist can only be degenerate when used with dark ritual on say, turn three. Don't be fooled, two cards for three random cards is better than one card for two cards. But way better things can be done with tons of colorless mana.
Mox Diamond and a hand with 2 Lands is a combo nowadays? Wow... I must be lucky ripping that land + brainstorm combo so often!Quote:
Originally Posted by Gheizen64
EDIT:
I would rather cast Mind Twist to strip an entire hand than Thoughtcast to draw 2 cards
Sol+Moxen + twist is a combo, yes. That's the reason stax decks in legacy sucks, because 3 mana on T1 is unreliable and make a lot your hands shit + give you shitty topdecks.
Probability of drawing at least one diamond in starting seven running 3:
P(Mox)=(57/60*56/59*55/58*...*51/54)^-1=31%
Add to that drawing at least one Sol land (8) in your remaining 6:
P(Mox+Sol)=P(Mox)*[(51/59*.....*46/54)^-1]=21%
Now add at least any one land to your remaining 5:
P(Mox+Sol+3rdland)=P(Mox+Sol)*[(35/58*34/57*33/56*32/55*31/54)^-1]=19%
Add a twist to your final 4 (running 4):
P(combo)=P(MSL)*[(53/57*52/56*51/55*50/54)^-1]~5%
Now in those 5% of hands, you can keep only those hands where you have another threat, unless you think you'll win by just casting hymn to tourach on T1 (This isn't as relevant in ritual decks that cast hymn because you "only" use 3 cards for the combo whereas you use 4 here, that's huge since the chances of seeing a threat in the last 4 cards are 33% greater than seeing a threat in the last 3 cards, so 33% more good hands, also running cards like moxen crap your topdecks ), so i'd say the real figures are about 3-4% of all total hands. Land + ritual + hymn is almost thrice as common as that (~10%) and isn't breaking the format anywhere.
Turn 1 Chalice, turn 2 something, turn 3 Mind Twist for 3-4 is still pretty strong. Of course it doesn't solve blank-stompy's problems with running out of gas.
I don't think Mind Twist would be broken, but it's playable.
I think no one is saying Twist is unplayable, just that it doesn't deserve to be banned and wouldn't warp the meta or anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
I actually think they should ban hymn to tourach. There's no strategy with that card.
no strategy or u cant fight it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Scordata