Confusion technique! Make the wrong plays to cause your opponent to make some wrong plays of his own! :tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by H3llsp4wn
Cheers,
jares
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Confusion technique! Make the wrong plays to cause your opponent to make some wrong plays of his own! :tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by H3llsp4wn
Cheers,
jares
I'm actually also interested in the development of the Miracle Whip archetype. Besides, the deck name is so much fun, I'd play it myself just for kicks. :tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus
Cheers,
jares
@Brot
Who was responsible for Erik"The Maggot" Hegeman?
:D:D:D
I couldn't stop laughing.(I still am)
Read his blog in Mtg-Forum. Very funny. :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus
I'd like to point out that even with Matignon being a total pain in my ear, the BoM Vintage final was a pleasure to watch after all that SCG Dredging. Also, the list was perfection.
Hey guys im pretty new to Dredge and would like to present to you my list:
//Dredger
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
//Buisness
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Putrid Imp
//Dread Return
3 Dread Return
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
//Lands
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
Still I am not set on the sideboard yet at all! Could somebody give me a decent one for an open meta?
+ Criticism is appreciated on my list.
Thank you and Greetings
It's a nice deck, but it is an easy matchup normally.Quote:
Originally Posted by jares
They have nothing. I think they only can win, if they counter all your spells until they get CounterTop online.
K1w1
Also reccur only 1 Ichorid each turn, or none at all if you have 4+ Zombies. Makes Terminus very weak. They also have a very "slow" fundamental turn so it's nP to DDD here.Quote:
Originally Posted by K1w1
Your decklist is pretty standard, the only change I would advise is try to squeeze in one more land if you could.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipp802
Here is a standard sideboard:
Elesh Norn x1
Angel of Despair x1
Iona, Shield of Emeria x1
Ancient Grudge x3
Chain of Vapor x4
Nature's Claim x4
Memory's Journey x1
To run both Chains AND Claims makes me wonder how this is considered standard Oo
Makes you ready for anything!Quote:
Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus
Oh, so better waste 4 slots on a card that does what the other does 99% of the time?
Oh, you are looking at them incorrectly.Quote:
Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus
Chain of Vapor is better against Reanimator and Maverick. Reanimator for the obvious. It is strong against Maverick because they use Ooze, Knight, Wheel of Sun and Moon, and/or Tormod's Crypt.
Nature's Claim is stronger versus weirdness like Mud, Enchantress, and counter top thopters. MUD seems to be making a comeback.
Also, you can use chain along side claim. Nature's Claim number 5 and 6.
I am not saying it is the best sideboard ever, but it is a pretty standard one. It is a good starting point. You can trim up on the Chains and/or Claims to fit in more Meta Specific hate like Leyline of the Void/Sanctity.
Furthermore, it is a really good idea for a new player to try both and see which works best for them. People that have played the deck for a while seem to favor one or the other. Starting with both isn't a bad idea.
What I am not sure with is the 3 BT / 2 PT split - how do the experienced players feel about it?
You normally want a playset of Breakthrough on the play imo.
@Chain vs Claim: Still, most of the time they have the same role. 8 slots for the same role is too much imo.
I think three breakthrough is perfect. It is generally bad in multiples and we have enough cards that draw cards with looting, careful study, and Cephalid Coliseum. Also, breakthrough is usually the first card to get sided out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipp802
I would personally play more Putrid Imps, but it would involve cutting something else: 4th thug, dread return & flayer, a careful study, a cabal therapy, or an ichorid. It kind of depends on what you want your deck to do.
@HokusSchmokus: What would you advise for a generic/standard sideboard for a new player?
There is no generic Sideboard. It all depends on your maindeck and what the metagame will look like. But again, I feel like I have different views than most on this thread.
By that I mean that for example, the best sideboard is more important than the maindeck. BUT to incorperate your sideboard cards in your maindeck the main has to be build well in order to avoid performing less stellar in g2/3.
For that to achieve, I believe to run the quadlaser list is the best. But even then, there is no generic sideboard.
Probably time for me to ask after sitting befuddled for months and not finding anything in the older thread. What does "quadlaser" refer to?
Chain of Vapor isn't stopping Griselbrand in Reanimator, which is the most likely Entomb target - even before Elesh Norn. Nature's Claim permanently stops Leyline of the Void, Wheel, Animate Dead, Sneak Attack, etc. and forces the player with a Crypt or Relic out to use it immediately. Chain of Vapor only delays the inevitable except against maybe Leyline. It doesn't stop Scavenging Ooze because all an opponent needs is an open mana to do some damage - only to replay it the next turn with potentially one more mana to add to the hurt.
Not very good.
Also, I am still loving Ancient Grudge. No one is running Cage and in that respect it seems incredibly good right now in the match-ups that warrant its inclusion.
Sneak and Show is also rising right now, so consider changing those boards. Just something to think about.
Check the opening post. Basicly the german way of playing dredge:PQuote:
Originally Posted by lordofthepit
Well, it's at least very popular around here. MD is 4 off everything that is not a DR(which isn't played at all), running 12 lands.
Also, Hollywood has it right. Though I doubt Reanimator will be using Griselbrand much, Chain does almost nothing in this matchup. Even against Elesh and the like, it does less than just using actual hate cards like Leyline. Against all other relevant matchups, Claim is better.
I don't know, but what happened to Charbelcher combo? Any card banned or is just not competitive anymore due to stronger decks in the format? It was so funny...
@Thread:
Against Reanimator Leyline of the Void and Faerie Macabre are better, since Chain of Vapor is easily counterable.
Against Maverick we can use Firestorm (still polemic), but Chain isn't stopping the damage as it should, so I'm still trying to rush DR into Iona when Ooze isn't active.
I'm still confused about the strategy against Sneak and Show... any help?
Charbelcher just never was good, and continues to be bad.Also, why are you mentioning the deck?OoQuote:
Originally Posted by Calado
Against Sneak Show, what is your problem?Therapy for Sneak or Show(you are running 4 Therapies, are you not?)and laugh at the turn 2 Emrakul as you can just race that.:)
If you are in a meta that has like 90% Sneak Show you could still run Pithing Needles and Sharuum as DR target I guess:P
...or be as lucky as I am and always have the Angel of Despair when they S&T their Emrakul. =P
Yeah, that's also what I was thinking when I saw the general lists. It probably would affect the rest of the meta somewhat, but it won't really matter much to Dredge (well, anything that doesn't take out our graveyard really doesn't matter too much anyway).Quote:
Originally Posted by K1w1
Cheers,
jares
I miss playing 16 bit nintendo games. Those were fun too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Calado
Free counters, that's my problem. I play LEDless and I'm used to DDD to not having my discard outlet countered, so I can't outrace a turn 2/3 Emrakul.Quote:
Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus
Ofc when he counters the Study I can Therapy right after, but I'm not getting lucky against my friend.
Maybe my problem is only that I'm a newbie. Ty for the tips.
imo, you cannot DDD against decks with a solid clock, even if they've got (free) protection. Their fundamental turn is like 3 - 4 (depending on the build), as is yours if you rely on DDD.Quote:
Originally Posted by Calado
With Careful Study and Faithless Looting, is playing 4 Breakthrough still the right number (at least in the maindeck)?
Depends on what your md looks like, but more often then not it is. Breakthrough in your sb is an utter waste of space imo
What people fail to realise when analysing the DDD plan is that you won't DDD forever. Once you have your stuff on graveyard, you start trying to cast spells. If one of them go through the opposing protection, all the best. If not, you are still in the game.
This is obviously not the right call against combo, and obviously a weak choice against decks with no counterspells, but against tempo-like decks, it's really worth it.
On the other hand, against Show and Tell, we can't afford to wait many turns, such a consistent combo with counter protection, it's part of our nightmare matches whenever they can stall us long enough. To fight this kind of strategy, we need to be extremely redundant, cutting every single piece of crap from the deck that isn't a Discard, Draw, Manasource or Dredger. At least this is my point of view.
Speaking about the sneak show matchup, I just noticed that was the finals at the SCG Orlando, both decks running Griselbrand:
http://www.starcitygames.com/events/..._david_mc.html
It looks like I'll end buying a set of LEDs... Discarding and dredging turn 1 is so good (even in manaless I have the wraith to accelerate).
True. The difference being that Griselbrand is actually a pretty hot tech for one of those decks, but entirely useless in the other deck...Quote:
Originally Posted by Calado
http://www.starcitygames.com/events/...n_vs_mark.htmlQuote:
Originally Posted by Izor
Griselbrand is a badass in Dredge. I gave him that tech on Saturday and it obviously did him some good.
I disagree. Irrelevant ability.
Agreed! When you need a Main-Board-Dread-Return-Target then grab a Flayer. He is badass!Quote:
Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus
Irrelevant is a strong word. Since the other DR target were FKZ, Griselbrand helped him to reach his combo. Worked like Ad Nauseam on TES.
Poor comparison.Quote:
Originally Posted by Calado
TES doesn't pass the turn with lethal on the board if they don't get to cast their AdN-->ToA.
+1Quote:
Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus
Flayer or Iona have FAR more relevant mainboard abilities. Even Elesh Norn has... :eek:
Besides that bad comparsion: Sphinx of Lost Truths or even Cephalid Sage [good ol' times] were there before Griselbrand, neither of them were relevant enough to stay in Dredge's mainboard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Calado
Griselbrand needs 2 DRs to kill the Opponent [DR & FKZ] and 2 DR targets. So it wastes 1 more slot than Flayer. Additionally, Griselbrand can't win in akward situations like Flayer can.
I do agree that Griselbrand is a monster in manaless, but that's a different story.
The only thing Grisel is good for is drawing 7 cards game 2-3 when you need a chain/claim midgame. Every other time, you cannot draw 7 with dredging.Maybe 5. But still not worth it for 7 life, when Sphinx does a similar job.
Griselbrand is pretty decent, I don't think he's any worse than Iona, Shield of Emeria or Flayer of the Hatebound fwiw. You just have to ask yourself whether or not you want a Dread Return target in the first place, and it really comes down to being overkill in the MD, IMO, and useful post-board when you want to differentiate your angles of attack vs Surgical Extraction and need a secondary target for when Golgari Grave Troll is RFGed.
I actually think Flayer is the worst, just because he requires the 3rd Dread Return and multiple Dread Return activations to do anything.
Anybody can win with Dredge game 1, it's really now your 75 works out over 3 games that matters.
I wouldn't say that Griselbrand's ability is "irrelevant", but I would surely say that the card's inclusion is unnecessary (which, in my opinion, also borders on being "win-more"). Its ability does surely power-up the deck to its limits, but it's not always true that the cost and benefit of running the card is essential to winning games, at least in the current meta.Quote:
Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus
I most certainly agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
Cheers,
jares