[Deck] 12 Post

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Originally Posted by Davek

I think you're describing best scenarios only, when you're still safe and sound at turn 4/5 or even later and you're already trumping your opponents with Titans/Tusks/Eldrazis/whatever. But what when you're facing tough decks like RUG and they start the game by deploying a delver, promptly followed by a tarmogoyf and a wasteland on your precious post? i've found myself in these situations a ton of times and i won many times hiding behind glacial chasm while stocking resources to play our expensive spells, trying to outnumber their counterspells. Of course, Glacial chasm may have lost a bit of its appeal lately (expecially if you have decided to drop your expedition maps) but i think it still deserves a slot main-deck. It saved me countless times.

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This is exactly my problem with Chasm. Against a deck like RUG, let's say, you're essentially gambling that the deck with 4 Brainstorms, 4 Ponders, and up to 4 G-Probes isn't going to draw its 2nd/3rd Wasteland before you're stabilized. 12post's plan vs RUG has always been to Show a Titan, and if you Show a Titan, you don't need Chasm to stabilize. We don't even need to talk about how much of a beating Thragtusk is for RUG to deal with.

I'm certainly not saying that Chasm is without its uses, and I 100% don't advocate dropping it from the 75(6). But I could see at least testing it in the sideboard and seeing if the meta is, as I suspect, more favorable towards running it in that slot.

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

Isn't this the definition of a sideboard card?

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I play it in main but my list is drastically different, meaning I'm still playing the "old" list with Oblivion stones, Repeals and Candelabras without any Oracles or Shamans. I'm currently undergoing testing Deathrite Shamans but for some reason I can't get much out of them like you others seem to do. I have had no problems with Canadian thresh since Repeal is just so good, as well as Oblivion Stone and Pithing Needle. They still die to Show and Tell. I guess the big difference is that I don't have to face S & T combo decks. Instead there are for example various flavors of UR delver, with and without Nivmagus.

Eventually, it's always a meta dependant as well. So far I haven't felt comfortable playing without chasm but it is always the first card I'd like to get rid of. MAybe I try without it next time. I'd love to try Tabernacle in main so maybe there's my chance.

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

This is exactly my problem with Chasm. Against a deck like RUG, let's say, you're essentially gambling that the deck with 4 Brainstorms, 4 Ponders, and up to 4 G-Probes isn't going to draw its 2nd/3rd Wasteland before you're stabilized. 12post's plan vs RUG has always been to Show a Titan, and if you Show a Titan, you don't need Chasm to stabilize. We don't even need to talk about how much of a beating Thragtusk is for RUG to deal with.

I'm certainly not saying that Chasm is without its uses, and I 100% don't advocate dropping it from the 75(6). But I could see at least testing it in the sideboard and seeing if the meta is, as I suspect, more favorable towards running it in that slot.

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Chasm main is not there for rug. It is there for hyper aggressive combo/aggro and potentially problematic matchups like burn. It is main to alleviate "random" pairings that have always been the bane of the deck. Simply running it main enables you to run less maindeck removal, and synergizes even better now that the deck runs even more lifegain.

Evaluate the deck slightly differently by asking "what are the deck's worst matchups?" and then attempt to help those matchups by adding one card. I would be interested if you think any other card than chasm could solve that problem.

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Originally Posted by Rock Lee

Chasm main is not there for rug. It is there for hyper aggressive combo/aggro and potentially problematic matchups like burn. It is main to alleviate "random" pairings that have always been the bane of the deck. Simply running it main enables you to run less maindeck removal, and synergizes even better now that the deck runs even more lifegain.

Evaluate the deck slightly differently by asking "what are the deck's worst matchups?" and then attempt to help those matchups by adding one card. I would be interested if you think any other card than chasm could solve that problem.

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Okay, the worst matchups, In my experience are a)opposing show and tell decks, b) storm pre-board, c) Combo elves, d) In the past (pre shaman and thrag), i had substantial issues against BUG delver decks, specifically the ones with sinkholes and hymns. E)goblins, although that may actually not be an issue anymore because t1 lackey is no longer a death sentence w/o chasm. F) Jund is horrifying if they curve out.

Chasm helps against the critter combo decks (goblins and elves), and is pretty actively bad in most of the other matchups above, unless you play it when ahead on lands, somehow.

Tabernacle does a number to goblins, elves, storm (it stops the same part of storm as chasm, at the very least), and most other heavy critter decks.

Hmmm... im not sure i would *replace* it with tabernacle, in the main, in terms of shoring up these matchups, mine turned a 3 of into a 4 of. (Prolly repeal). Honestly, if anything, it was probably just "replaced" by shaman and thragtusk, IMHO, and is now taking up space.

What does chasm save you from that either goes online before turn 3, or that gaining 5+ life in the first 4 turns doesnt?

It should also probably be noted that my meta is inundated with fair decks and nic fit, so my list is not running oracles or venser (MD), and is running 2 OStones still. It also dropped brainstorm some time ago, which has made it run better, but is not available to cut if you want to be able to board into force for show and tell decks. At some point i'll post a list (i'm at work, and my deck is unavailable to me atm)

Err, evidently i have a fairly current list on my phone, shown below.
It should be noted that my list is tuned to my meta, which has no combo decks except for elves and a single omnitell deck that doesnt show up often.

Also note that the sb has -1 venser, -1 thrag (availability), and -2 MBtrap,
and +2 all is dust, +1 Ostone, and +1 thespian stage, because of the lack of combo in my meta, and what i happened to have on me *sweat drop*.

My SB also usually has a complete overhaul before every (major) event, due to meta expectations and/or reevaluating card performance.

Creatures:14
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Thragtusk
4 Primeval Titan
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Spells:21
4 Crop Rotation
3 Expedition Map
4 Repeal
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Oblivion Stone
4 Show and Tell

Lands:25
4 Cloudpost
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Forest
4 Glimmerpost
1 Island
1 Karakas
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Tropical Island
4 Vesuva

Sideboard:15
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Flusterstorm
1 Oblivion Stone
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Thragtusk

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Originally Posted by Tortuga

Okay, the worst matchups, In my experience are a)opposing show and tell decks, b) storm pre-board, c) Combo elves, d) In the past (pre shaman and thrag), i had substantial issues against BUG delver decks, specifically the ones with sinkholes and hymns. E)goblins, although that may actually not be an issue anymore because t1 lackey is no longer a death sentence w/o chasm. F) Jund is horrifying if they curve out.

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Have you read this forum? These are not the bad matchups. In fact most of them are incredibly good.

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Originally Posted by Rock Lee

Have you read this forum? These are not the bad matchups. In fact most of them are incredibly good.

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Fact. A lot of people seem to think any non-tundra deck is a bad matchup. Non tundra decks just aren't cake-walks. A lot of the bad G1 matchups are natural, and are addressed by very heavy boarding - often resulting in an overall decent or great matchup (I get excited to play against storm). But yes, hyper-linear decks can just have the nuts but that is what every magic deck has to contend.

One key thing is that being U/G/x/(y), our colors are very capable of patching holes with the right card choices. We aren't just naked to some pillars like mono red or black are.

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Originally Posted by Julian23

Thank you for your input here Tim. Can you provide us with what you consider the latest "stable" (as in non-beta) version of the deck with DRS and Repeals? Jeremiah's list on the last page doesn't feature Repeal IIRC.

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This is similar to Rock Lee's reply, I felt great with all our lists going into Baltimore and I'm still having success with this DRS era list, in the current metagame.

4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
4 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Karakas
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Bajouka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm [This isn't a meta card. It's a "I need more time" card. It's needed IMO.]

3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
4 Primeval Titan
2 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

1 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Crop Rotation
4 Show and Tell
3 Repeal
2 Oblivion Stone

SB:
4 Flusterstorm
3 Mindbreak Trap
3 Iona [or 1 Venser, 2 Thrag]
3 Force of Will
2 Venser



I cannot decide if I like 3 or 4 maindeck S&T..

I assume that the Iona are for Elves/MUOT (Mono-U OmniTell), Tim? The fact that they can also potentially hose other decks is just gravy.

I really can't love oblivion stone, it can be stifled and decayed... i'd run all is dust before it

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Originally Posted by Rock Lee

Have you read this forum? These are not the bad matchups. In fact most of them are incredibly good.

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So what matchups do you feel are the worst?
(not trying to be belligerent, just want to get better at the deck)

Also, which ones of those are easy? I need more practice against them, if they aren't a bad matchup and i'm having difficulty.

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Originally Posted by Davek

I really can't love oblivion stone, it can be stifled and decayed... i'd run all is dust before it

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The number one thing pointing me to blivion stone instead of all is dust is the fact you can use it for 'instant speed' removal. It is one of the few things that can be used in response to other effects on the board, like sneak attack. It is also a substantial tempo play, as if you are willing to hold it in play, your opponent will be reluctant to commit more resources to the board, buying you time to make more land drops, or just take all the turns. If you have 4 mana up, its also a hell of a thing to drop off an opposing show and tell. (rare as that may be)

I'm going to have to start giving Tim credit for my sub's if I keep stealing his ideas. Doing what an individual should NEVER do, which is test a new build the day before a big event. Trying excessive GSZ's and less of my 3'of's. In testing it is proving to be incredibly potent.

Tortuga, I have mentioned several times the "bad" matchups for this deck. But random combo is the biggest. variants of it are MUD, Affinity, crazy combo decks. The grindy decks that you are expressing difficulty facing are beaten mostly by playing for advantage rather than objectives. Keep hands of parity cards and you beat grindy decks. Example: Most cards Parity = -1. Repeal's parity = 0. Crop rotation's Parity = -2/-1 depending on how you use it. Thragtusk is +1 if you discount his body. Titan is +1 if you discount his body.

From a "numbers" perspective, you can evaluate your hand against grindy decks and determine how "safe" your hand is.

Has Chancellor of the Annex been tested in the spot of Iona, Shield of Emeria?

Sure this is not an "I win" card against OmniTell but I think it could be very useful in a variety of matchups and it's still a decent S&T target for us...

It kinda defeats the purpose of the card when you actually show them what they will have to deal with post-S&T. Delaying their first cantrip by 1 turn isn't really what I'm looking for in SUCH a specific sideboard card as well.

Indeed. Trinisphere or a counter seem significantly stronger.

Aren't you guys missing shuffle effects lately? I think that 4x fetchlands aren't really enough to take the best adavantage of Top (casting Crop rotation while not knowing exactly what to take just to shuffle doesn't seem very smart imho) And Titan, well, i do not consider Titan a shuffling effect, because if it has sticked then we have automatically won 95% of the games. Wouldn't be a place for a couple of lonely expedition maps? Maybe shaving some place from utility creatures by using multiple Green Sun zeniths (which are shuffle effects too)
What do you think about it?

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Originally Posted by Darkenslight

I assume that the Iona are for Elves/MUOT (Mono-U OmniTell), Tim? The fact that they can also potentially hose other decks is just gravy.

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I destroyed omnitell with trinisphere two games in a row a while back it's hilarious.

Not to completely shake up the deck, but I'm officially kaibashing DRS in my current testing. He plays into too many of their plans, and I end up relying on his fixing after I crop away my lands, and when he gets killed/has to block/starved for lands, I stall out when I normally would be hitting my stride.

Any tournament report from SCG Philly? SBGpinas also didn't do well at our past event.

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Originally Posted by blindspotxxx

Any tournament report from SCG Philly? SBGpinas also didn't do well at our past event.

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My report would be quite bitter. All around unimpressed with DRS. Forcing me to play into strategies other decks are better equipped to beat. I top 64'd, and could have top 8'd had I not been so tilted from DRS's failings to make a vital misplay round 6. But all around I would feel deceptive writing up a report for this version of the deck, which is getting a major revamp.

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Originally Posted by Rock Lee

My report would be quite bitter. All around unimpressed with DRS. Forcing me to play into strategies other decks are better equipped to beat. I top 64'd, and could have top 8'd had I not been so tilted from DRS's failings to make a vital misplay round 6. But all around I would feel deceptive writing up a report for this version of the deck, which is getting a major revamp.

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so what direction do you think you will go from here. back to the explore's or candelabras or something completely different. personally don't own candelabras so i was likin the DRS route but i have noticed bad habit of keeping hands dependent on him. what would you recommend to those who dont have candelabras

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Originally Posted by Havoc

so what direction do you think you will go from here. back to the explore's or candelabras or something completely different. personally don't own candelabras so i was likin the DRS route but i have noticed bad habit of keeping hands dependent on him. what would you recommend to those who dont have candelabras

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The hard part about building with candelabra in the current meta is with abrupt decay saturation and heavy discard, keeping candelabra isn't always strong. I personally think you need greater than 8 land tutors to make candelabra a non-liability. This means the last 2 slots in the deck are either 2x Sylvan Scrying or 2x All is Dust/Oblivion Stone.

Now that bonfire is down to 5$, going to test them, as I always wanted to.

After some grinding I came up with this config:

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
3 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [U] Tropical Island
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost
2 [R] Volcanic Island
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [IA] Snow-Covered Island

// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [PRE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth

// Spells
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [V09] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [US] Show and Tell
4 [GP] Repeal
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
4 [AVR] Bonfire of the Damned

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 4 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 [EVE] Glen Elendra Archmage
SB: 2 [FUT] Venser, Shaper Savant
SB: 3 [AL] Force of Will

Significant upgrade against the meta. DRS was cute, but played too well into the plan of the meta. This build allows you to goldfish, or heavily punish the board for either holding back or over-committing. Your side remains as always, hell on combo.

Final testing is involving candelabras inclusion or not, specifically looking at the 27th land, kozilek, and 4th bonfire for slots.

Hey,

Interesting this is nearly my list.
Bonfire are in the deck since a couple of months, right now.
Good sweeper and an altern-wincon. You can catch a lot of ppl with it.

I've completely cut S&T.
Basically, I have lost the "combo" part of the deck which could go crazy on turn 3 as I found it really really clunky, to focus more on the "control" part.
But I guess, this is a matter of preference.

Expedition map are replaced by Explore.
Tutor is good and cheaper but I prefer the acceleration provided by Explore.
Expedition map can also fix a lot of non-coloured opening hands which could also be problematic. So the lands were adjusted (no more 12 posts -> 10)

Kozi is out cuz no S&T, which leave us with one more creature slot dedicated to combo -> Venser + Glen.

Verdict: Bonfire kills more ppl than Emrakul :D

Omg bonfire sounds sweeeeet! Miracle post!

Hey guys, i play terminus in the deck since about a year. i think it s much better than bonfire.
It's always a great surpise for my opponent. It doesn t work against stifle but only RUG play with. And opening the deck to white seems for me better than red.

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Originally Posted by Keupon

Hey guys, i play terminus in the deck since about a year. i think it s much better than bonfire.
It's always a great surpise for my opponent. It doesn t work against stifle but only RUG play with. And opening the deck to white seems for me better than red.

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Why do you think Terminus is better? The only advatage i can see is that its cheaper to miracle.
Bonfire is easier to cast from you hand, and is able to kill Players and Planeswalkers.

The reason I am experimenting with bonfire is because of exactly what zathe says. The simultaneous player/creature sweep is enormous. There is no other card that is both amazing against BUG's diverse card advantage plan and swarm oriented aggro ala goblins/young pyromancer.

Testing so far has been incredible. I personally think the tipping point for Bonfire was young pyromancer's printing in conjunction with many blood moon effects seeing play. I tested Bonfire in the past and it was always too late, too cute, or too lackluster. To be determined.

Theros - Swansong

Instant

Counter target Enchantment, Instant or Sorcery spell. The spells controller puts a 2/2 Bird Token with Flying into play.

Seems like a very good sideboard card for 12-post, thoughts? Handles Blood Moon, Counterbalance, God Cards, Sneak Attack of course hitting all the spells from ANT or TES.

This is the list I just won my weekly 5$ entry event for a Lion's Eye Diamond for. The list felt extremely solid. Didn't drop a single game, all 2-0's. Testing has shown the list to be disgustingly strong as well.

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
3 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [U] Tropical Island
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost
2 [R] Volcanic Island
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [IA] Snow-Covered Island

// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [PRE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 [FD] Trinket Mage

// Spells
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [V09] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [US] Show and Tell
3 [GP] Repeal
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
4 [AVR] Bonfire of the Damned
1 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 4 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 [EVE] Glen Elendra Archmage
SB: 4 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 1 [RTR] Cyclonic Rift

Yay Trinket Mage! I love that guy. When's the last time you tried a list without S&T? An earlier post got me thinking about cutting all of them, and it seems like a high variance slot in an otherwise well-oiled machine. Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by HammafistRoob

Yay Trinket Mage! I love that guy. When's the last time you tried a list without S&T? An earlier post got me thinking about cutting all of them, and it seems like a high variance slot in an otherwise well-oiled machine. Thoughts?

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years. The meta has shifted heavily since then. It isn't worth completely discrediting, especially since I ALWAYS show in a titan and bonfire shores up matchups where you would need show and tell immediately.

I will test, however don't mistake decks with low card counts as them being non-vital.

This deck changes like crazy. How'd GSZ work out?

No Taiga to go with the island?

So thragtusk or Oeacle? I loved Oracle!

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Originally Posted by That nice guy

This deck changes like crazy. How'd GSZ work out?

No Taiga to go with the island?

So thragtusk or Oeacle? I loved Oracle!

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Because the curve can reach so much higher, this deck has nearly infinite wiggle room, unlike the vast majority of decks. One of the reasons I enjoy it. My deckbuilding interests are never tapped.

Thragtusk and oracle are great, but in a meta built on beating creatures, even highly efficient ones aren't optimal unless I can soak/counter/dissolve the removal they have, often with my own creatures.

GSZ is in the same boat.

Haha, this thread is outright confusing.

Cards like Candelabra, GSZ, S&T, DRS, Repeal, Thragtusk and others are first praised as the lord himself and enter the list as a 4-off and get completely cut in the next list Jeremiah tinkers and posts.

It's really funny to see all the madness within the limitless potential of the core of the deck and how some peeps bandwagon in this thread ;)

It's called trying to solve the problems the deck has in a given metagame. Peeps bandwagon constantly in Magic, it's part of the competitive scene. Note how everyone that plays any deck plays the same tried and tested list, give or take 3-5 slots in the entire 75.

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Originally Posted by HammafistRoob

It's called trying to solve the problems the deck has in a given metagame. Peeps bandwagon constantly in Magic, it's part of the competitive scene. Note how everyone that plays any deck plays the same tried and tested list, give or take 3-5 slots in the entire 75.

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Exactly. As mentioned before the selections with this archetype are highly variable compared to agonizing over how many probes to play or snare vs pierce in RUG. DRS to bonfire actually is a 'tweak' in this deck. They're both different angles to solve the problem in the meta, which has swiftly jumped from UWR delver (which prompted DRS), to moons and pyromancer, which calls on bonfire. I still have my grasses and needles on deck for when the seasons change.

Also Swan Song will def get slots in my board.

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Originally Posted by TimHarding

Also Swan Song will def get slots in my board.

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Thank you for reminding me about the pre-empt Swag Song note. That card is incredible, and will definitely see a heavy inclusion in the sideboard. Dispel + Envelop with splashes against most problem matches? yes. Yes please.

Combo was already on the decline in presence, but now it is just getting ground down hard.

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Originally Posted by Rock Lee

Thank you for reminding me about the pre-empt Swag Song note. That card is incredible, and will definitely see a heavy inclusion in the sideboard. Dispel + Envelop with splashes against most problem matches? yes. Yes please.

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You're going to cut force or Mindbreak Trap for it. I think cutting 2 force would and 1 trap would be good.

Again, no Taiga to keep the basic island company?