I think one of the big things in favor for mandrils is that he easely kills goyf. This goes ofcourse for the moon goose as well. He will be the biggest guy on the table.
Mole
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I think one of the big things in favor for mandrils is that he easely kills goyf. This goes ofcourse for the moon goose as well. He will be the biggest guy on the table.
Mole
I went 3-3 in a local tourament this weekend, losing to Goblins twice and Burn once. I beat another burn deck, Midrange BUG and UWR Delver. Except for the Goblins match, I was happy with the deck and my own perormance.
My decklist
Main
Standard 54
2 Forked Bolts
2 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
Sideboard
3 REB/Pyroblast
2 Submerge
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Rough//Tumble
1 Flusterstorm
1 Vendillion Clique
1 Dismember
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ancient Grudge
1 K Grip
Both goblins decks had a white splash, which meant that they brought in Thalia and RIP. Thalia was not a problem, but RIP was brutal. I generally felt in command of the matches until my opponent exhausted my stifles and counters and dropped a bomb that I could not overcome. My approach was to save stifles for Goblin Matron, Goblin Ring Leader and RIP; bolts were directed at Lackeys and Warren Instigators; and I countered Aether Vial on sight.
My side boarding was as follows:
- 4 Daze/FOW
+ 2 Rough//Tumble
+ 1 Pithing Needle
+ 1 Ancient Grudge
Upon refection after the match I think I was too focused on Aether Vial. I think that a turn 1 vial
should be countered, but anything after that should be ignored. I also should have mulled more aggressively into a hand with a fast clock (Delver or Goyf). We generally can interact with Goblins to stop their game plan, but this only holds up for 5-6 turns until they can overwhelm with CA.
Other thoughts:
- I think Clique would be useful in this matchup and would like to find a spot for it.
- I am not sure pithing needle should come in. It is amazing in an opening hand if the Goblins player leads with vial, but other than that it doesn't do much.
- I daze is terrible in the matchup and should be boarded out even on the play.
- I think K Grip should come in. It can stop vial with split second, destroys RIP, and is an out for Chalice of the Void (which one goblins player brought in from the sideboard).
My future sideboard plan against RW Goblins:
- 4 Daze
- 1 FOW (play) / 1 Spell Pierce (draw)
+ 2 Rough // Tumble
+ 1 Ancient Grudge
+ 1 K Grip
+ 1 Clique
I would appreciate any advice that I could get about this match, I feel like we should be favored, I just don't play against it often so I don't know the proper lines to take.
Except when Goyf is a 4/5, which is most of the time in this format and deck (instant sorcery land creature).Quote:
Originally Posted by WhacAMole
I have to side with HammerAndSickled here, Mandrills doesn't quite make the cut. You want to deploy your threat ON turn one, not pay 1 mana for it turn 4. If he replaced Goyf but didn't hurt your Goose plan it might be fine. But it's the opposite, and that's a problem. You can't play Mandrills alongside either Goyf or Goose without it being real awkward, and I don't think it lines up well against a lot of the removal in the format either.
Don't get me wrong, the Delve cards will have a big impact on Legacy. But in order to play them, you have to care very little about having an actual graveyard. And in this case, you have to not care about your threat coming down early. This is still a Threshold/Goyf deck. The equation just does not compute.
I am going to have to disagree with you on a couple issues assuming we are replacing nimble mongoose with hooting mandrills.Quote:
Originally Posted by Borealis
1) The only threats that delver decks REALLY want to deploy on turn one are delvers of secrets or if you are playing Bug delver DRSs (since it is a bonkers card) . There have been few games where I want to lead with a turn one mongoose because quite honestly its not much of a threat turn one through three- it can get chumped by DRS, MOM, stoneforge, Thalia etc...
2) After playtesting with hooting madrills, it really doesn't have much problem with your own goyfs- oftentimes your opponent will have a land, instant, creature/sorcery in their graveyard from your stifles, wastelands, bolts or their own cantrips/ fetchlands.
3) Mandrills lines up well with almost ALL the creature removal in the format except for STP. It beats bolt, disfigure and abrupt decay which are arguably (with STP)the 4 biggest removal cards in the format.
1) Sure, Delver is our best creature to run out turn 1, but that doesn't meant you DON'T play Goose if you have no other action or with a Force/Daze hand in the absence of Delver. You need your threat in play asap, and when you only draw 1, and it's Hooting Mandrills, you're going to be hooting and hollering in frustration. To extrapolate this further, there are a handful of games where we will simply sit back and hold up Countermagic in a blue/combo matchup. In this case, our graveyard will be low, and our mana choked. A 1-2 mana threat is a far better path to victory here than a 6-mana empty graveyard sadfaced ape. There will be times you can resolve him at an ideal time, but there will be times when you have no other threat, a slow hand without cantrips/fetches, and your graveyard is too small. I'll take a 1/1 Shroud that still beats down over a dead card in hand in that case, especially since our plan is to stop their plan, and thus remove such silly blockades as DRS or Thalia.Quote:
Originally Posted by Emo
2) Fair enough. I haven't tested the card and don't plan to, so I'm the fool on this front. But I'll still take my blind snap-assessment of a graveyard-eating card in a threshold-centered deck. Oftentimes does not equate to all the times.
3) ALL the creature removal includes things like Jace's -1, Liliana's -2, Submerge, Terminus, Verdict, Council's Judgement, Toxic Deluge, as well as stuff like Rest in Peace and Deathrite Shaman, which can eat your mana to cast the threat in the first place once they figure out what you're up to. If we're just talking about targeted removal though, what lines up better than the Delving Ape? A Nimble Mongoose.
So if we're talking about replacing Mongoose with Mandrills, it's a bit of a different story, but you're still looking at having to eat your whole yard to resolve it, which will enough of the time be a problem for your hungry Goyf. But mostly, if we're talking about losing a Shroud Nacatl for a weaker Tombstalker, we are talking about a major change. Shroud on Goose is an absolute house in some very relevant matchups. I don't think Shroud for +1/+1 and trample is particularly close in this format, and that's assuming Mandrills actually cost G. Which, it doesn't, and rarely will. And never on turn 1.
I personally have played many a turn 1 Goose. I may not like it, and it may not be nearly as great as a turn 1 Delver, but it's often our best play. And it often represents 4 unblocked damage before you build a better Mongoose and close the doors. Mandrills will rot in your hand FAR too long to be a RUG Delverable threat in my opinion.
I think one important caveat to the recent arguments for Hooting Mandrills is the inclusion of gitaxian probe and possibly thought scour in RUG's stocklist (Probe is just better at getting information and is amazing for the tempo plan of RUG). Probe really does make this card much more applicable in RUG Delver- If you do not have a turn one delver- a turn one probe becomes a very real play as it will tell you whether or not to hold up mana for stifle, bolt, spell pierce etc... Also in playtesting, I found probe really does make the difference of getting a Mandrills down turn 2-3 as opposed to turn 3-4. Playtest the card or goldfish the deck a couple times running 3-4 probes and 3 Mandrills. I would disagree about this card rotting in your hand. RUG, moreso than almost anyother deck in the format, except dredge variants, has an uncanny ability to get 5 cards in the graveyard by turn 3 without a problem. In most all cases, I was able to cast Mandrills as a turn 3 threat by paying only G.Quote:
Originally Posted by Borealis
Your argument about creature removal really only includes two other options MAYBE three in Jaces -1, Submerge and dismember (I feel that is a corner case for dismember). lilianna's -2, toxic deluge, terminus, verdict, council's judgment all kill goose just as much as they kill Mandrills, In fact, mandrills evades other "marginal removal cards" like engineered explosives, pernicious deed, flashing in V clique to ambush block... My original argument was that it evades 3 of the 4 most effecient And widely targeted removal spells. But if you think about it, Mandrills is marginally better at evading mass removal spells due to its 4 toughness and its 6 cmc.
It is exactly the +1/+1 and trample that make this card relevant. I will give you the fact that this card is bad against miracles, and this matchup may well make this card unplayable since Miracles is so goddam popular these days, BUT that being said, it makes your midrange matchups better. Trample becomes relevant against creatures like V. clique, True Name nemesis, Delver, Lingering souls, Blood Braid Elf, and if you manage to kill stoneforge mystic, it gives you the option to trade with the germ token on batterskull stopping batterskull shenanigans until they have the requisite lands to redploy it. These are all creatures that are played in midrange decks and this is where I think Mandrill shines over the 'Ole goose.
My assessment of this card is that it is a strict upgrade in midrange matchups, but against miracles and perhaps other white heavy decks it may be less strong.
Emo, do you think the over all better performance against other decks could make the mandril version (without moon goose) play a more focused sideboard against the harder matchups?
I aggre that bounce after board might be a problem.
Mole
I would say yes, null rod comes to mind but ultimately between pyro blast extra counter magic- k grip/ancient grudge and submerge we don't have much wiggle room for sb 2 maybe 3 cardsQuote:
Originally Posted by WhacAMole
All excellent points; however, you forgot to add how much better Mandrills is against Counterbalance!Quote:
Originally Posted by Emo
So while both Mandrills and Nimble are equal against Terminus, people say well STP owns Mandrills; however, look how much the miracles player's Counterbalance will easily own Nimble. With both 3-4 Terminus and 3-4 Counterbalance main deck and a whole bunch of sideboard gy hate, Nimble's resilience to STP is good but far from great in that match.
Pound for pound when you weigh all the pros and cons for each, it is conspicuous that Mandrills comes out on top in this particular deck in the present legacy metagame.
It's conspicuous that you came to that conclusion with such subjective data.Quote:
Originally Posted by Demonic_Attorney
But sure, Mongoose is weak to sweepers as well. But he still costs 1 mana every single time. And often we only have 1 mana to spare.
I realize gix probe and thought scour fuel mandrills well. And you pretty much must play them to support it. My contention is twofold:
-Mandrills does not jive well with Goyf, nor Goose, nor itself.
-Mandrills requires you to play those extra cantrips, taking away the ability to run more high impact flex spells. More importantly, mandrills is a serious liability. Resolving two in a game takes SERIOUS work. You will likely never cast 3 in a game. You can't play it early for damage, you must wait until you can resolve it to start the beat down. It is weak to daze and force of will and all bounce spells. It is softer in some ways than goose or Goyf to GY hate; at least you can resolve the other two and work out a plan from there. Casting mandrills under a RIP will happen approximately never.
These sound like minor differences but they aren't. The card is playable but requires serious commitments, and it just doesn't jam into the deck easily.
I'll concede that perhaps there is a Delver/Mandrills/TNN list out there that runs up to 4 scours and probes. And perhaps that list will perform well. But I think you both need to take a second look at the drawbacks before you start preaching about the Next Messiah here.
I think that you are in some poits wrong. Thats my experience with the New ape ( I play tested around 23 Games against 6 different decks):Quote:
Originally Posted by Borealis
"It's conspicuous that you came to that conclusion with such subjective data.
I realize gix probe and thought scour fuel mandrills well. And you pretty much must play them to support it. My contention is twofold:"
I think the probe's are realy helpful in this deck they make your early turns so much effective couse you can play around threats like taxing counter and knowing what you enemies are up to is always great ! "
"-Mandrills does not jive well with Goyf, nor Goose, nor itself. "
I play tested around 23 rounds vs.6 different decks and he just shrinked my goyf twice for one or two rounds for -1 -1! I think we all know that he isn't play good with the goose together ( thats why we cut it)! Thats true that you probably won't play Apes in one round but in my 23 rounds I had him often twice on the board.
"It is weak to daze and force of will and all bounce spells."
Goose is save from fow ok ?(wtf) and he not realy in danger to get hit by a Daze ,you play him often turn 3 and you will have often have two lands on the board. And yes he is weak to bounce spellsbut there are just a few in Legacy.
"It is softer in some ways than goose or Goyf to GY hate; at least you can resolve the other two and work out a plan from there. Casting mandrills under a RIP will happen approximately never. "
The good thing is that you can cast him befor the rip is hiting the board ( turn 2 cast arent so unusual then you may think) so you can cast befor he has the chance to cast it. After the cast he isn't affected by GH like the Goyf and goose ( it's true that you can cast goyf and goose with a RIP on board but its fucking SHIT!).
Hello RUG players!
I've been playing some different legacy decks over the last few years, but RUG has always been something I wanted to buy into sometime. Right now, I got the manabase and all cards except for the goyfs. While I plan to buy them in the future, I am looking for alternatives to play the deck right now (I am sick of waiting to be honest). So I was thinking of running a Young Pyromancer build with the pyros replacing the goyfs and 4 Probes (+ 2 spell snare or forked bolts/chain lightnings) in the flex spots. With your discussion about the mandrills and their need for cantrips I was thinking, that they seem to overlap with pyro. So maybe something like 4x Delver, 3x Mandrills, 4x Pyro, 2x TNN could be a viable threat base? Second question: Has anyone ever tried out the wasteland-less 14 land version that Caleb Durward presented a while ago? If yes, how did it go? Seems like making room for more cantrips for pyro/mandrills could be ok. And if you are not running wastelands, is there still merit in running stifle to protect your manabase (14 lands without protection seems dangerous), or is stifle without wastes stupid?
Stifle waste daze are very very important I wouldn't play without them. Each one makes the other better.
I don't think the deck would work without it. I'm not familiar with the 14 land list however
I am aware that Gitaxian Probe is great in this deck, but that doesn't mean we want to be forced to play more than 2-3 copies, or that we should feel pressured to spend it early just to fuel our first threat. I've played with Thought Scour and it's also a sweet card, but again, having to run these means you have a bit more air and less actual spells in the deck. And honestly, 4 Gix Probe is not going to make a significant difference in being able to cast Mandrills much earlier, statistically. Scour is much better, but you're having to spend mana to make it happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by RiverCake
The only way you are casting Mandrills on Turn 2 is with a hand that has multiple fetches, at least 1 probe, and a turn 1 play. And that's assuming you don't get Wasted or Stifled yourself. Most of the time, you are not going to want to burn all those spells and fetches right away simply to resolve your threat, and even if you go through all that to Delve for 4, the next Goyf or Mandrills you draw is awful.
This is the same reason Mandrills is weaker to Daze and Countermagic in general than Goose: If I play Goose on turn 2 and it gets countered, I still have a graveyard for future threshold needs. It's also much easier to leave 1 mana open when I'm not forced to Delve away my whole yard on turn 2 to cast my threat. Getting your Mandrills countered is much worse for us, since again, you've paid more than just the 1 mana investment you normally would with Mongoose, you've paid for that Ape with precious graveyard fodder.
While you say that you had multiple games out of 23 where you were able to resolve more than 1 Mandrills per game, that does not mean that it's nearly as easy or painless as playing multiple Mongeese. And tell me, in those games where you did play 2 or more Mandrills, how many cards were in your yard for Goyf? People are saying, "But your opponent has a graveyard too", but they miss the point where the opponent has control over his graveyard, and also might have access to any number of ways to manage it (such as Grim, DRS, etc). Your experience is a good data point, but you'll still be hard pressed to convince me that it's just fine playing out 2 threats at the cost of 10 graveyard cards than it is to just play Mongoose.
There are only a few bounce spells in this format, yes, but they are quite common. Combo decks run Chain of Vapors or similar, and would certainly play that card vs. us once they realize they can strand our threat back in hand. Jace is a pretty common card considering it sees play in at least 2 of the Tier 1 decks. Submerge is still a staple in RUG Delver Sb's, and would only see more play if people adapted to Mandrills as their primary threat. The guy playing Goose + Submerge will always trump the guy playing Mandrills in the mirror match.
I'm aware that you can cast a Mandrills prior to RiP effects, and in that case it's certainly better than our other options. But the Graveyard hate cards will generally come down the same turn or sooner than a typical Mandrills, stranding the card in your hand. Those same decks are the ones that can easily bounce him or reshuffle him or simply StP him, and the next copy you draw is a brick. Shrouded 1/1s might not be the best attack force ever, but they still deal damage. Sometimes all you need is a couple more points in between Termini to finish them off via bolts. Mandrills can't provide that once you've lost access to your graveyard. And in the corner case where you can remove the RiP and start rebuilding the GY, Goyf and Goose will likely grow bigger faster than you can actually resolve the Ape. Particularly Goyf here.
I'm not discounting your testing, if it's working for you keep rocking it. Like I said, perhaps it's good enough to shake up the RUG Delver threat base and justify losing Goyf and Goose. But I tend to doubt it. Goyf and Goose are both easier to resolve. Goose is much more resilient to a lot of removal, and doesn't cost you anything beyond 1 mana if he bites the dust. Goyf is generally going to be just as big as Mandrills for a very similar cost. But you simply can't justify playing Goyf + Mandrills in the same deck. You say that it shrunk your Goyf a couple times, but you neglect to mention whether that mattered. Or the fact that you now voluntarily gave your opponent a way to reduce your force even more with one card. This deck's aggressive draws often involve multiple Goose/Goyfs alongside each other bashing in early, and the same type of early start just won't happen as easily with the Delving Apes.
Again, if we cut Goyf and Goose, it gets much more playable in my mind. I still don't think you can support more than 2-3 (remember that Team America rarely ran more than 2 Tombstalker), but you could certainly support it if you wanted to. But it's still on average a turn 2 play at best, and look at the competition there. Stoneforge, Goyf, Bob, Snapcaster etc. At 3 mana, Mandrills starts looking like a Loxodon Smiter, which is nigh unplayable in this format. He CAN be a 1-drop, but on average he's going to be closer to a Serra Avenger 2-drop. And with cards as ubiquitous as Deathrite Shaman to delay his castability, this card just doesn't quite cut it in our current RUG Delver shell.
I'd much rather see Hooded Mandrills in a RUG Zoo list. But even then, it doesn't jive with Goyf. I think that's it's biggest weakness. If it were in a different color, it might be a different story, but most of the time this Ape is just a more finicky Lurghoyf.
TL;DR: RUG Delver wants to play an early threat and then protect it for the rest of the game. Even Tarmogoyf can be an expensive and risky play sometimes, but we run him because he's so damn huge so often, statistically being the biggest threat for 2 mana you can find. Mandrills will sometimes be a bigger threat for less mana, but will more often be a similar or less threat for the same or more mana. More importantly, he doesn't work well with the plan of "Play a threat ASAP, ride it for the rest of the game". Having 8 actual 1-drops is too important to risk having a 6-mana conditional 1-drop. You will NEVER play Mandrills on turn 1, you can almost always play Mongoose on the first turn if needed. Being able to play a 1-drop and hold up Daze or FoW is our bag, it's what we do. Mandrills is not that 1-drop.
Here is the article for reference: http://www.channelfireball.com/artic...omancer-brews/Quote:
Originally Posted by trollking21
I think we can agree that there are merits and reserverations about the card Hooting Mandrills which is what healthy debate is all about. RUG delver is one of the most fun decks to play (in my opinion) in legacy: it has some game against everything except for maybe Merfolk and certain Mud Variants. The deck is not too hard to pick up but very difficult to master. We CAN all agree the best one drop in the deck is Delver and the best beater pound for pound is goyf.Quote:
Originally Posted by Borealis
In my personal experience, the format has changed where a lot of combo decks besides elves are beginning to be pushed out in favor of midrangey decks. Deathrite Shamans and True Name Nemeses seem to be everywhere; oftentimes, even if I play mongoose turn one, I feel behind if they land a Deathrite or if they can resolve a TNN and quite honestly I rather cast a Mandrills on turn 3 or 4 in the face of an active deathrite shaman, rather than have a goose just sit on the board held back by a 1/2 elf. I could have used that one mana cantripping for a bolt instead of deploying goose. The same goes for RIP, I like having the option to stifle RIP, if I can't counter it and hit my land drops to play mandrills then just lose to RIP at anypoint in the match. (We can go back and forth with hypotheticals here forever..).
Everyone is saying that goose is a one drop that you ride to victory but it is almost always delver that you ride to victory, any deck with a creature based strategy will oftentimes just trump goose before you can do real damage with it (D&T, Bugdelver, shardless Bug, UWR delver, Jund, Miracles... etc.). double delver is always the aggressive start I want, not a goose and a goyf and especially not 2 geese. A year ago, Mongoose felt like such an integral creature to this deck but now after RTR and commander 2013, the ground can be stopped so easily by just one active DRS or one TNN: this merfolk just makes combat miserable for us as our deck has zero interaction with the card. Mandrills is slower. Yes, it is, but it also ensures a consistent source of ground damage via trample. Maybe 2-3 Mandrills is not what will change the deck maybe it will require more, but like the RTR block, there will be shake-ups with archetypes onces khans is released. There are quite a few delve cards that seem pretty dang powerful. In playtesting this card against certain decks, mandrills just is flat out better (ex. playingtesting against D&T). I don't think it is fair to say that this card doesn't fit the Rug delver shell, maybe Mandrills won't pan out, but if people are playtesting and say that they are experiencing some positive results, I say there is merit to brainstorming and playtesting with new cards until it is pretty clear that Mongoose is just flat out better.
Fair enough Emo, I can't disagree with this statement. Not trying to discourage innovation either, it just strikes me that the Delve mechanic doesn't jive well with how our deck operates. I do think Mandrills is Legacy playable, just not alongside Goose and I'm unsure about Goyf as well. With some reworking we could adapt it to our deck though, and time will tell how viable it really is for RUG players.Quote:
Originally Posted by Emo
On that note I will be testing RUG much more often in the coming months, and I'll do my best to test out these wacky new Delve cards.
went 2-2 last sat with rugdelver..won vs bugdelver..burn...lost to patriot and elves..my patriot match was simply unlucky.., well it has been unlucky all day since i rolled three 1's in a 20 sided dice and the other a 4 to complete the all otd start! mulled 5 vs patriot and almost pull it off by havin 3 mongoose and was able to control bskull...but ran out of gas for his bolts...game 2 wherein i have 2 goyfs..stifled a rip..but never drew any more of my crits ive lost to stps....burn was easy...i nearly won the elves match game three i never drew any removal im already at 5cards to start with...game three vs bug where i needled fetches and vendilion/tnn helped a lot here after being wasted turn 1 and got surgicalled..losing all green sources..glad i controlled every mana he tries to land.
never mind the badluck part..but the games taught me to be back on full goose set..i was playing just three..if i need to cut another crit for my tnn/cliq teamup which i really love, it should be goyf...but goyfs made my life easy vs burn..anyways
i agree with borealis on the mandrils part. it hurts our deck that plays mongoose...not much with goyfs..but then again i just hate the thought of mandrils being countered/stp'ed/bounced...it has it upsides..but ill just rely on the old rugdelver plan of controlling manas when it comes to tnn matchups.
i thought wotc made that 4/4 trample delve an ape..just so kird ape will have his new companion...in rug zoo (still has issues though with grim)
ill be waiting still for new tests results from you guys..and continued testing and healthy deck conversations really helps.
Hello!
This past weekend I was able to 4-0 my local. My matchups were Elves! (2-1), RUG Delver (2-0), Shardless BUG (2-0), and Sneak and Show (2-1). The list that I used is the standard 54 with 2 Spell Pierce, 2 Forked Bolt, and 2 Gitaxian Probe. My SB is...
3 Submerge
2 REB
2 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Null Rod
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Rough//Tumble
1 Life from the Loam
1 Spell Pierce
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Destructive Revelry
Against Elves! he blew me out G1 when I couldn't flip my delvers and gave him too much time. G2 I laid down two Cages with a Goose and G3 a fast Goyf with Roughs got me the last game. Submerges were very helpful G2 & G3. Force is reserved for NO and Waste reserved for Cradle. I aggressively use my Roughs. If I can score a two for one then I will fire it off.
SBing -> -4 Stifle -4 Daze /// +3 Submerge, +2 Rough, +2 Cages, +1 Spell Pierce
With the mirror I find the game revolves around lands and Goyf. G1 I was able to Waste him off of his one-land and stick a Goose he couldn't kill. G2 Submerge was a house as I tempo'd him with a play of Submerge Goyf and Waste his one green source while I had an active Goyf to bring the pain.
SBing -> -4 FoW -2 Daze /// +3 Submerge, +2 REB, +1 Loam
Shardless feels like a tough matchup, but I was lucky to get three(!) delvers G1 flipped by turn 3. G2 I drew all of the perfect answers to what he had. Late game he played a SFM getting SoFI with a BS in hand. He played the Sword and I pierced it. Bolted the SFM. He tried to play the BS and Grudge took care of it. Perfect draws do happen! Sidenote: GP allowed me to navigate this turn perfectly :wink:
SBing -> -4 FoW -4 Daze /// +3 Submerge, +2 REB, +1 Loam, +1 Ancient Grudge, +1 Destructive Revelry
Sneak and Show is always a tough matchup for me since I can't seem to ever build up a enough defence. G1 he had it T2 he Show and Telled I countered. T3 he Showed again and attempted to counter again, but he had the Force. Scooped after taking 15. G2 I mana screwed him with Stifle and Waste along with a quick clock of Delver. G3 a Sneak Attack eventually made it into play followed by a demon. He drew 7, but couldn't find another mana source and was at 8 life. I drew a Revelry, had a Bolt in hand, and flipped Delver in play. Hit for 8 exactly. Very close game.
SBing -> -2 Forked Bolt, -1 Lightning Bolt, -2 Goyf /// +1 Spell Pierce, +1 Destructive Revelry, +2 REB, +1 Clique
Loam was underwhelming and I think it will become either a Grip, Sylvan Library, or maybe a Needle. I also have switched one Forked Bolt into a Fire\\Ice and I am considering turning the remaining Forked Bolt into a Chain Lightning... we shall see though...
My deck treated me well this weekend and I was happy about my play as well. In the end I won 33 bucks store credit that I turned it into a Windswept Heath.
grats on ur perfect finish! glad to know our deck's doin good..anyways, it was only now i saw a shardless list that carries equipments..or it might be an esperdeathblade...:wink:
Thanks! Yeah, it was a strange list I didn't know if that was something Shardless was trying out now? But he had the Visions + Shardless Agent, Tarmogoyf, Deathrite, Baleful Strix, and Stoneforge as well. It was pretty greedy to say the least!Quote:
Originally Posted by poxy14
Here's why you should never underestimate a nimble mongoose
http://www.iflscience.com/plants-and...end-four-lions
Hi,
I played a larger tournament Saturday 9/20, (40-50 players) with RUG and went 8-0-1. This was the first time I played the deck for real because I've been missing two Tarmogoyfs for a
while. The tournament was a great experience, especially since i won (lol) but also because I felt like I was "in the zone" in all the games I played. Actually I didnt lose any game but
2-0 every single match. I was extremely lucky rolling the die, I don't remember losing any rolls during the first five rounds, and since I was leading in points I had the luxury of going
first all games throughout the quarters to the finals. However I also won every game two, when I played on the draw.
Standard 54.
3x Gitaxian Probe
1x Spell Pierce
2x Forked Bolt, figured there would be more creatures than control/combo which turned out to be true.
SB
1x Rough // Tumble (should be two and not one Pyroclasm but only have one copy and the guy who was going to lend me didn't show up.
1x Pyroclasm
1x Sulfur Elemental
1x Ancient Grudge
1x Destructive Revelry
2x Flusterstorm
3x Submerge
3x Pyroblast
2x Grafdiggers Cage
Infect 2-0
(-4 Daze, -4 Stifle, +3 Submerge, +1 Destructive Revelry, +1 Rough, +1 Pyroclasm, +2 Pyroblast)
Was careful to bolt his threats (early) in the match when he was tapped out. He managed to swing for ten infect but I had left an unflipped delver to chump. Quite close game but I won
since he had to protect his life total by chump blocking my goyfs. Second game was a little bit strange since he attacked me twice with an unblockable creature with an untapped
pendelhaven. I guess he wanted to protect it against forked bolt + leave his only green source up to pump in case I had lightning bolt. I think he should have been more aggresive
since I had neither of them in my hand.
D & T 2 - 0
(-4 daze, -1 FoW, +1 Destructive Revelry, +1 Ancient Grudge, +1, Pyroclasm, +1 Rough, +1 Sulfur Elemental)
Opponent short on mana (1 wasteland + plains) throughout the game. I blind flipped a Delver and had Spell Pierce and Force of Will to protect it. I saved my stifle vs. his batterskull
trigger which gained me an imense amount of tempo because of his shortage of mana. Game two was a bit closer. He played Thalia which I bolted which was a turning point in the
game for me. In both games I actually ignored his turn one Mother of Runes, it didn't do anything, since my opponent was too afraid to use it. This sounds strange but I think a lot
of death and taxes player are overvaluating it vs RUG. My delver flies and my other creatures are green (not red) and are often bigger than his creatures, and when he uses his MoR I can
bolt the creature or MoR in response.
Elves 2 - 0
(-4 Daze, -4 Stifle, -1 Spell Pierce +1 Pyroclasm, +1 Rough, +3 Submerge, 2+ Grafdiggers Cage, +2 Flusterstorm)
I have to admit, I drew two lightning bolts and one Forked bolt. I was completely destroying his board and doing three a turn, followed by Goyf or Mongoose. He had no shot of winning.
Game two, I drew one bolt and two submerges. I submerged his dryad arbour twice to gain me tempo and swinging with goyf and delver. The nail in the coffin was pondering into a
grafdiggers cage.
D & T 2 - 0
(-4 daze, -1 FoW, +1 Destructive Revelry, +1 Ancient Grudge, +1, Pyroclasm, +1 Rough, +1 Sulfur Elemental)
Won the die, as always :)
Don't remember much of the game other than that it was close and I forced his Aether Vial on his first turn. He wastelanded me which he actually said afterwards was a mistake since my
dazes became very effective. I managed to hard counter twice with daze and fly in with delver(s). In usual fashion I had stifle up for his batterskull trigger.
Second game, pondering or brainstorming into a destructive revelry was excellent since I could now relax and not fear his SFM. Instead I could tempo him out with liberal Force of
Wills which I would otherwise been more reluctant to cast.
Shardless BUG 2 - 0
(-2 Daze, -2 Stifle, -2 FoW, +3 Submerge, +2 Pyroblast, +1 Rough)
Very close game. I luckily drew a delver. He played DRS and I Force of Will it. He played sylvan library which was active throughout the game. The game went on and he needed a second
abrubt decay for my second delver. I countered his cascaded ancestral visions with spell pierce and force of will the second time praying he wouldnt find his decay with his sylvan library. We
raced, I had a delver and he had two Shardless agents. My life total was a bit higher so I only needed to protect my delver from lilliana which I knew was in his hand. My last card,
daze, was live vs. the lilliana and it was a relief when he finally played it into my daze. Second game he mulled to four! I didn't mind my chances vs. this tough match-up. I had kept a
one lander with ponder and delver. He played forest go. I played land ponder but didnt find a land and shuffled. No land there either. I played delver go. On my third turn I found a
fetch land and it was game over since I had seven spells in my hand.
Im now 5 - 0 and leading the tournament.
I'm playing UR delver with Pyromancers. He is 4 - 0 - 1 and we decide to draw.
In the quarterfinal I play goblins and play first.
Goblins 2 - 0
(-2 Daze, -2 Fow, +1 Ancient Grudge, +1 Destructive Revelry, +1 Rough, +1 Pyroclasm)
He plays Mogg War Marshall twice which puts me in a tight spot since they chump very well vs. my large goyf (6/7) As ususal forked bolt is excellent since I can burn two X/1 and force
through nine damage with my goyf and mongoose which puts him on the defence.
Second game I mulligan to an excellent six-card hand. He plays fetch and fetches a Badlands. I probe him and see he doesn't have any more colored mana, only two wastelands.
So I go ahead and wasteland his Badlands and passes. He plays wasteland go, I play land - ponder. He plays second wasteland and passes. I'm kind of surprised he didnt wasteland me in this spot.
I play Mongoose and land. He doesn't finds any lands and now it's too late to wasteland my lands. I follow up with a goyf and it's kind of gg.
Semi-final D & T 2 - 0
(-4 daze, -1 FoW, +1 Destructive Revelry, +1 Ancient Grudge, +1, Pyroclasm, +1 Rough, +1 Sulfur Elemental)
I play the same guy I met in the fourth round. I'm not sure if he made any misstakes, but I won the games easily. As usual I think D&T overestimates the value of Mother of Runes by not
blocking when I offered him to trade it with my Mongoose. I personally think this is a misstake since he can't really deal with it post threshold. If I knew he would block I
wouldn't have attacked.
Second game he can't deal with my delver and my counterspells. He made plays like not block my Tarmogoyfs with mother of runes to force me to Lightning Bolt it which I think is questionable.
Final. UR delver with Pyromancer 2 - 0
(-4 daze -1 Stifle, +1 rough tumble, +1 Pyroclasm, +3 Pyroblast)
First game I draw a terrible hand with 4-5 lands I think, but a Nimble Mongoose which is excellent vs. Snapcasters and Pyromancers. I try to bluff as much as possible by thinking
hard when he plays spells. I finally draw a brainstorm but it contains one land and two spells which isn't excellent. I shuffle away two lands and now two hold lands, stifle and
FoW. He seems to be flooding as well or maybe he is saving spells to make tokens with his Pyromancer. He plays Pyromancers and makes alot of tokens by cantripping away. Later in the
game I have two Mongoose and one Tamogoyf (4/5). He has five tokens, one unflipped delver and one Pyromancer, and one card in hand. I swing with both Mongooses (3/3) and pray he doesn't
have instant spell in his hand. He doesn't and trades my two creatures for five tokens and a delver. I believe this was a misstake. Now I have goyf and he has Pyromancer and one card in
hand, I presume a Force of will. He doesn't doesn't go off with cantrips and I manage to win.
The final game was a little bit shaky with him fetching basics and me playing around daze and saving my delver in hand to be able to FoW his Blood Moon.
In mid game I have two goyfs which he can't deal with and finally I'm victorious! Doing a perfect win losing no games in the whole tournament.
To summarize, the tournament felt very (almost too) easy. I'm not used to play cometitive magic and have little experience playing legacy vs. other decks than my friends Maverick.
However I have watched quite a lot of magic on twitch and watched Jacob Wilson on channelfireball.com playing RUG. I think I was quite lucky, objectively yes by winning the
rolls, but also in drawing good opening hands often with Delver. I qualified for another tournament by winning this, and I will report the results here. Stay tuned :)
Congratulations on your result and thank you very much for the nice report!
Sure!Quote:
Stay tuned :)
So while everyone here was in a fuss about howling mandrills, myself included, I decided to test out treasure cruise. The card is really really good, from my limited testing. The problem is I had to cut mongoose and I haven't really found another threat I liked. In its place i was playing young pyromancer but he has been fragile until I get to the late game where I can play him and make tokens same turn.
Delve 7 wasn't proving to be a big issue, as often times even if I shrunk goyf, I would draw into more threats. I'm not ready to say it's conclusive, but I definitely think it has potential to change the deck and would encourage people to try it out.
The deck I tested for reference
Dudes
4 delver
4 goyf
3 pyromancer
1 TNN (this was almost certainly wrong you already have way better things to do when you start drawing cards)
Spells
4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 daze
4 force
4 stifle
3 treasure cruise
4 lightning bolt
1 forked bolt
2 spell pierce
18 land
Honestly the deck could just morph into 'BURG' tempo and go with Deathrite Shaman instead of Mongoose. Shaman is literally the best 1-drop in Legacy at the moment, and doesn't really conflict much with your own Tom Cruises and can actually help fight against opposing Cruises.
If this Cruise thing catches up and makes the pure RUG obsolete in face of BURG (and its shaman), I'm going to sell my cards. I ain't gonna hunt down USeas and stuff coz I got just about enough of this all.
BURG only really needs 1-2 Useas. Mostly you cast DRS via Tropical.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer
Canadian,obsolete? :cry:
What do you think, guys?
Nice report!Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolkonsky
I was the Shardless BUG player. I was actually shocked to hear that you hadn't that much experience with Legacy because i think that your play was very tight. It was too bad that I had to mull to 4 game 2 as i really looked forward to playing more. The matchup is so much fun! :)
Any changes you would make on your list in hindsight except the Pyroclasm?
Gratz on your victory! :)
I do like this idea, I am gonna run a couple probes and maybe a thoughtscour or two and run this list but with DRS instead of pyromancer and see how smoothly it runs. As a big proponent of mandrills (And still believe this card is good), I found it was never difficult to cast via delve so I can't imagine delving two more would be that much more difficult for an ancestrall recall. (obviously wouldn't put the two in the same deck) I do really hate having to monkey with the manabase by including two U.seas thoQuote:
Originally Posted by trollking21
I specifically avoided probes actually. The reason for this is between 4 ponder 4 brainstorm and 3 treasure cruise, you will start cantripping into cantrips. I wanted a few more "real" cards in my deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Emo
The only time I had a hard time casting cruise was when I opened both in my hand other than that it wasn't ever hard to cast.
It won't. BURG while it has some advantages over RUG sacrifices consistent mana for some marginal late game advantage with DRS and Abrupt Decay. Anybody who knows how to play against BURG can easily take it down A) waste trop and B) kill DRS and BURG will crumble under the weight of it's own greedy mana base. Treasure Cruise does seem to have some potential, but I don't think it really fits in RUG with goose. I mean Goose is the whole reason why RUG is arguably the best tempo deck in legacy. It has a threat that dodges 99% of the removal in the meta (except sweepers and Lili) and if it does everything else that a tempo deck should goose can carry you the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer
Treasure Cruise does allow RUG to do something that it lacks: card advantage. Everyone who has played RUG knows that your opening 7 has to carry you the game and if you mull below 6 the game is probably lost before it begins. Cruise is cheap efficient card advantage which fits RUG's MO or at least the first two parts. It doesn't play nice with goose at all which is a problem. I want it to fit in the deck, but cutting goose for another threat just seems so bad.
Maybe if you play it as like a 2 of or something and do it post combat if goose is in play. It's only -6 to threshold and drawing 3 cards can definitely help to fill our graveyard between that turn and the next. I might do some brewing to see if it can work.
Yes, this seems right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Contract Killer
I guess I'll keep the cards no matter what, I play the game for 18 years and it's not like I'm going to stop anytime soon. At worst I may simply lay it on the shelf to gather dust and troll the lgs once per year.
I always thought that RUG might try some CA tools either main or sb. LftL comes to mind, but it's kinde narrow, although it works pretty well with at least Wasteland. I always wanted to try Ancestral Visions for the matchups where I sb out Forces, like any discard decks or any fair decks (or the combination of both be it Jund/k or whatever). One other card that thrills me is that "draw three if gy has 20 cards", but frankly, this seems like an utter nonsense, as 1) DRS is everywhere and 2) by turn10 game should be decided and no draw3 might save us.
I guess that Treasure Cruise might be fine as a one- or two-of, becasue it won't clog our hand, it will bring some more gas to fuel the gy and in the mus where we need mongoose, it's about correct play. I mean, a mere 1/1 is nothing to fear about, but as long as the creature lives, it will continue to be a nuisance until Lili/Terminus hits it and with our full hand we should be able to answer the kill and to refuel the gy asap, maybe even on the next turn. Coz drawing three (plus the fourth one in the next turn's draw phase) with some ammount of fetches and cantrips should be enough to turn the NM back to 3/3 very very soon. Enter LftL...
Quote:
Originally Posted by SORO
Whooooaaaaaa, whoa whoa whoa, whoa. No. Not even a little bit.
Look, Treasure Cruise is a very playable Legacy card, as is Dig through Time. But neither of them are particularly attractive to any deck running Goyf/DRS/Goose. Sure, BURG and BUG Delver might use it as a 1-2 of (at most), but it doesn't fit in RUG Delver unless you cut Geese and don't look back. But similar to Hooting Mandrills, I see no reason to do this.
RUG is still fine. Treasure Cruise might shake Legacy up a bit, but it is just another high-mana threat that can be Dazed, or Forced for actual value. Have you ever forced a Tombstalker? Feels pretty good. In Legacy, the GY matters to nearly all decks in some way, shape, or form. Those decks that don't care about it at all will be the only ones that can really abuse Treasure Cruise, and yet they will still be vulnerable to Daze/Spell Pierce/Force/Pyroblast.
Now, let's look at us. Do we want this effect? For U, a sorcery-speed Ancestral is certainly very very good. For 2U, it's still very good. For anything more than 3 mana, this card becomes a liability for us, and only become useful in long games. If it were an instant, it'd be a lot better.
However, exiling 7 cards is insanely bad for us. Even when we do hit Threshold (generally between turns 3-6), we have NO interest in losing it. Think of how bad you feel when RiP hits the board, or even just a timely Relic. We can't afford to lose our graveyard at all, let alone be forced to eat it to cast our "best" cantrip. Sure, we want to draw 3 cards (who doesn't), but not at the cost of making our other cards worse or nigh useless.
RUG is a velocity deck. We try to stay ahead of our opponent the entire game, and win before they can execute their plan. We are unfavored against just about every other deck in the format if we allow the game to go long. Often, we will win with less cards than them, but more board presence. We would gladly sacrifice power for speed. We don't play Jace, Ancestral Visions, Snapcaster, or any other silly cards that actual represent card advantage, we simply want card quality in the early game, and we want to extend the early game to forever. Treasure Cruise is a late-game card. Even if you could cast it consistently for 2-4 mana and it didn't hurt Goyf/Goose, it would still be a bit unfavored for us. When you draw 3 cards, but none of them answer that Batterskull or Griselbrand, what does it matter? If you could instant-speed the Cruise, it would be much better, since you could dig for Bolts, FoW + Blue card, or Daze + Pierce in response to your opponent's attempt to win. But at sorcery speed at the cost of 66% of your threats' power, this is not our card. And we don't need it either.
People will play these cards in Legacy, for sure. Perhaps even Black Delver/DRS lists. But we will still continue to function the same as always, with very little changes. This isn't TNN, and we survived that problem just fine (sort-of). This is simply "expensive Jace" at sorcery speed. There are so many must-answer threats out there already, that having to face Treasure Cruise or Dig Through Time is just another humdrum daily job for us Delverers. Delver > Delve. Daze, Stifle, and Wasteland still hold these cards at bay.
No, RUG Delver is not dead. Feel free to get greedy and play 4 colors. But RUG will remain the most consistent Delver deck in the format in my opinion.
Copied the post to my "RUG Delver" folder.
Well written, good job.
Heyho RUG-Maniacs,
I'd like to share thoughts & opinions about the following decklist I brew together today, especially the best amount of any of the chosen 60MD without cutting / replacing any of them first, before i'll start the testing phase. Of course you may also leave comments on the SB-cards.
18 Lands:
8 Fetchlands
3 Volcs
3 Trops
4 Wasteland
11 Creatures:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Tarmogoyf
31 Spells:
4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
3 Gitaxian Probe
3 Spell Pierce
3 Ponder
3 Stifle
15 Sideboard-cards (configuration for an unknown metagame):
2 Submerge
2 Pyroblast
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Rough
1 Forked Bolt
1 Pithing Needle
1 Krosan Grip
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Flusterstorm
1 Dismember
1 Ancient Grudge
My wish was to assemble the advantages of a burnheavy boltversion (like Kale Thompson ones: http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=8003&d=246070&f=LE) without the loss of stifle (which is an auto-include for any canadian threshold list imo and mostly for anyone of the RUG-community) and also without disclaiming probe (which is also huge for this type of deck). Dismissing Spell Snare is currently personal preference.
Overall I had to make some cuts for bringing all the amount of cards I love to play together and for the beginning I thought cutting 1 Tarmogoyf and 1 Ponder would be an OK decision. I also pondered about cutting 1 Daze / FoW for either of the chosen ones (in such case I'd park them in the SB).
3 Probes:
I'd like to have them regularly in my opening hands. Chances are higher with 3 in the list instead of the usual used number of 2. I also hoped the amount of 3 would some kind of balance the deficit of the missing 2 cards, in my case Goyf and Ponder.
3 Goyf / Chains / Pierce:
With 3 Goyf and thereby 11 Crits it's the ultimate threat-borderline for the deck, but i think it should work most of the time as sometimes lists with the same creature configuration show up at bigger tournaments and have success. SB-Cards like Clique/Vortex/Elemental surely act something like the 12-14th Creature postboard. True-Name Nemesis or the 4th Goyf also could be in the SB instead.
At least the 3 Chain Lightnings also could make the difference in beating the remaining damage in or constantly cleaning the way for my Creatures. Also to protect them efficiently and as an answer to any other noncreature-threat - in addition to Daze and FoW - I set the configuration of Spell Pierce to 3.
3 Stifle:
4 Stifle sometimes feels clunky in certain matchups. If my opening hands in G1 contain Delver or Mongoose they are my usual turn 1 drops - not holding mana up for Stifle. Also opponents try to play around Stifle in the early game stages if they are able to do so. At least I want 3 Stifle for drawing them in every game and with cantripping, this should work.
In the end I'm reasonable between 2-3 Probes, 2-3 Pierce for upping Stifle or Ponder to 4 if you think this would be better. Speaking of Chain Lightning I'd very like running 3-4 aside the 4 Lightning Bolts, won't go beneath that numbers.
kind regards, halo
@haloquero: very interesting list, and personally im a fan of playing 3's when im about to insert something i like to play.. i love ponders, and since u want multiple probes, i think that's the best way to diversify your cantrips..im also into the burn heavy config...but since they are a lot of burn showing lately here in my meta, chains are really bad...that's why i go for forked or tarfires. we also ran the same build SB, 2 submerges and 1 dismember (so we could still get a removal outside the green matchup) i ran 2 needles eversince i got that from BEDECKS, and been doin real great help for me...less ur vortex/sulfur. goodluck on your tests and keep us posted with the results.
I aggree the 3x stifle idea. It's a good card, but not a great one. You often won't want to get 2 copies in the opening hand, as delver, bs, etcQuote:
Originally Posted by haloquaero
Yes, I really like haloquero's list. The only thing that concerns me are the thre CLs, as Burn is all over our lgs. One may consider either FBs or Magma Sprays (if there are lots of Nic Fit decks where you play), or maybe even F/I, but that's quite a liability due to the cmc, but for a blind meta, CL should be fine.
I'd stay away from mixes, they don't work fine for me. I'd rather consistently draw mediocre cards, than keep drawing uncertain ones that might be really bad in a particular matchup.
On sb: I really like Needle. There are some reasons against it (it's not a card to flip the bug, it offers fake safety - once they get rid of it, Liliana/Jace/Top/EE is alive again -, etc.), but the flexibility, low cmc and the fact that we may play it with any land, makes it into a really powerful card.