Thanks. I would stick with Grip - it destroys Omniscience and Leyline of the Void, which Decay does not. I suppose you could run a split of the two, but I definitely wouldn't cut Grip.Quote:
Originally Posted by Layalouhamesh
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Thanks. I would stick with Grip - it destroys Omniscience and Leyline of the Void, which Decay does not. I suppose you could run a split of the two, but I definitely wouldn't cut Grip.Quote:
Originally Posted by Layalouhamesh
Krosan Grip is miles better than Abrupt Decay. Split second is extremely relevant.
As is the not being black.
Thanks for your answers. I will try both in my local meta to find if a split is worth playing (lots of Miracles and aggro decks)
Against Miracles I hold Boseiju with an unnatural love.
When playing the Black Splash against Miracles, I like Bob and Boseiju. It's likely they have removal, but if they use it on Bob that's a bonus. If they don't, that's a bigger plus.
Isn't the life loss a bit too much? Zuran Orb in addition?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
The average CMC of a standard build is about 0.46 total. No, it's really not an issue. Plus, if they are hurting, just don't play the upkeep on Tabernacle.
Honestly, the biggest reason to run Black would be Bob. If you have the splash going, run him.
I resolved Bob against a Miracles last FNM (we were the last two 3-0 players) in game 2. He untapped and Terminused it. It blew my mind. On the one hand I knew I was going to win because he still had Terminus in his deck but on the other: he terminused my bob on turn 2! He SET UP Terminus with Ponder!Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers...3744&type=cardQuote:
Originally Posted by barcode
Grip is also better at blowing up SDT - and almost as good at blowing up Counter Balance.Quote:
Originally Posted by barcode
Split second allows us to ounish opponents for sitting on Relic of Progenetus
Decay hits dudes, but we are pretty good already against non-shrouded creatures.
Another grindfest against Miracles:
Building a Fortress #3
Enjoy.
Goyf, Knight and other horizontally growing creatures can be painful though. I guess if there was a large amount of them in your meta it could be worth a thought.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimhead
Would there be any consideration into just splashing blue for academy ruins, engineered explosives and any other artifacts that might be worth running because of the splash in that sort of meta? Or does that just make the deck weaker? Seems like EE would solve a lot of problems that we may have with hatebears and other problematic permanents.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
Finally had a chance to watch this one. I think I would have Gambled for a second Exploration in game 1. When we can get ahead on lands instead of just breaking even replaying Stage/Depths it's much better for us. We have opportunities to port lands and can start punishing fire them out as plan B. Also, I would have mazed Marit Lage after attacking so we can blank any attacks (instead of just mazing their guys). Other than that: well played. It would be good to see what the match looked like from the Miracles side.Quote:
Originally Posted by gigapatrick
edit: And for #3. Dear god play your Explorations. :( Using your mana every turn makes drawing loam so good. Choke is the nuts! Also, why do you port in draw step?
I have tried to do this a few times, my last experiment ended with me dumping the idea totally. I wrote about it some pages back.Quote:
Originally Posted by CptHaddock
Barcode:
Thanks for the advice. I think you're definitely right about Gambling for another exploration in the first match against Miracles. I hadn't even considered that--but that's part of the point of the videos, to improve my play. As for playing out my Explorations in the first game of the second match against Miracles, again I didn't consider it because I had Manabond in play (which is about equivalent to two Explorations), but you're certainly right again.
As for tapping with Port during Draw Step: if I do it during upkeep, they get a free spin of their Top, essentially. Then they draw exactly what they want. If I do it on Draw, they've already drawn their card for turn and spinning then is less useful. Granted, it probably doesn't matter ninety-eight percent of the time, but the other two percent might matter.
They are likely to be spinning at the end of your turn. If you tap in their upkeep they have no top benefit with the mana (they can still brainstorm or Dig, but that's another issue). Doing it in their draw step you let them use the mana right away to set up their next draw (instead of forcing it end of turn or upkeep; a decision between casting a spell or using top) because the first thing done in the draw step is to draw a card. There's definitely cases to port in the draw step, like when you have multiple ports: use one in upkeep and they may float mana. If they float and pass priority let the mana empty and then use the other port in their draw step to pin down a land and cut off more sorcery speed effects.Quote:
Originally Posted by gigapatrick
Also, on the "production quality" front, when you speak to folks not on the recording please mute your mic. ;) We can all hear you speaking to your little one.
I took my list from the previous page to my local last night. Matchups were as follows:
Round 1 - Omnitell
I lose the die roll and my opponent goes Island -> Preordain. My Exploration gets Forced, and then my Stage activation targeting depths on turn 3 gets Stifled (!). He combos the next turn. I board like this:
-3 Maze
-3 Wasteland
-1 Gamble
-2 Manabond
-3 Punishing Fire
-1 Bojuka Bog
-1 Glacial Chasm
+4 Trinisphere
+4 Krosan Grip
+3 Choke
+2 Sphere of Resistance
+1 Karakas
Game two I keep a hand with awkward mana but also double Trinisphere. I draw Ports, then a Sphere or Resistance which gets Forced. I rip Thespian's Stage on turn 4 and pass with the combo ready. My opponent casts Show and Tell, I put in Trinisphere and make Marit Lage on his end step. Game 3 I keep a hand with no permanent hate (just a Grip), Exploration, and assorted lands. I eventually draw Choke but hold it in hand for Show and Tell. He casts Show and puts in Omniscience (I put in Choke), then plays Blood Moon (!) off of it. I Grip Omniscience in response. What follows is a very long durdlefest where I try and draw a Grip and he doesn't do anything (all but one of his Islands were tapped under Choke and his fetches were Mountains). I eventually draw 2 Grips and a Trinisphere for backup, Gripping Moon end step and making Marit Lage. He attempts to fetch two Islands, realizes he only has one left in his deck and concedes. 2-1
Round 2 - Death and Taxes
My opponent wins the roll and plays Plains - go. I play Manabond into Tabernacle and Port and other lands. He draws lands and eventually sticks an Avenger and a Revoker (on Mox) through my double Port. Luckily, I immediately rip a fetch (Mox was my only colored source) and then a Loam. Loam + Manabond gets out of hand really quickly and we go to game 2. I board -2 Manabond, -1 Bojuka Bog, -1 Gamble for +4 Grip and Karakas (I think). Game two he has Thalia and I have Exploration. I take some beats and misplay a Crop Rotation (I got some irrelevant land instead of Tabernacle against his Vial + only 2 lands draw). I eventually Loam into Chasm and then Tabernacle wiping out most of his army. I assemble the combo and he concedes. 2-0
Round 3 - Miracles
Game one I keep a hand with too many lands that don't produce mana, which should have been a mulligan. I eventually resolve Exploration but don't find Loam or Wasteland until it's too late. I had 2 Ports and the combo but he had 3 white sources and a million cards in hand (plus counter-top and Jace) so I wasn't getting there. I board -3 Maze, -1 Punishing Fire, -1 Chasm, -1 Crop Rotation, -1 Wasteland, -1 Bojuka Bog for +4 Krosan Grip, +3 Choke, +1 Boseiju. Game two my opponent fails to draw his 4th land, and his 3rd gets Wasted while I have double Port. He concedes and we go on to an epic game 3. My Exploration gets Forced and I'm left with double Crop Rotation and lands. I draw Port and then Choke. He plays Meddling Mage on Loam which turns off my Loam in hand. He then slams counter-top and I play Choke which resolves. I get slowly beat down by Meddling Mage while I Port his non-Islands every turn. He counters a couple Punishing Fires. Eventually - at 3 life - I find Grove and bait the Counter-Top with Crop Rotation. I Fires the Mage, but unfortunately I don't have enough mana to Port as well and he plays a second Mage on Punishing Fire. I have two draw steps to draw Dark Depths and don't get there (it was the next card). I completely forgot about Meddling Mage and realized I should have left in a couple of Mazes here. Still a pretty fun match though. 1-2
Good enough for second and some store credit. I think my boarding against Miracles was questionable and I didn't leave in enough anti-creature tech. I also need to play Crop Rotation a little better - I didn't use it aggressively enough vs. Miracles and used it to find a superfluous Land vs. DnT.
EDIT: I also made an interesting misplay game 3 vs. Miracles. I had him locked down to only one available land (a Plains) so he could only top once per turn. When he went to Top on upkeep, I attempted to Punishing Fire his Mage only to realize he was floating a 2. If I had waited until after the Top activation resolved and then cast Fires before his draw, I likely would have killed the Mage and perhaps took the game.
Updated. There is now more videos, I have changed the titles to just give names and decks played. I think this is cleaner and easier to understand. It also makes it simple to find the matchups that might be on your mind at the moment. Also added a DRS section with the Split second trick. If I missed anything please let me know.
To barcode:
I see what you're saying, but we're in disagreement on this point. With Top in play, the default should be to Port them during draw because this forces them to use their mana right away to spin Top for their next turn. Doing it during upkeep simply gives them a free spin before they draw. I agree that there are situations in which Porting on upkeep and then Porting again on draw are optimal, like when they're about to Entreat (which forces them to flip their Top before their draw step so that they trigger Miracle), but I don't think this came up in any meaningful way.
Hello all. A couple more videos:
Building a Fortress #4
Building a Fortress #5
My play during these videos is . . . less than stellar. Have to make better decisions and be more mindful of clicking through steps. Anyway, enjoy.
No Barcode is right, if you port them in their draw step they see an extra card.Quote:
Originally Posted by gigapatrick
- Port in upkeep they see 3 cards which they've likely already seen EoT (3 cards)
- Port in draw they see the 2 they've already seen on the top of the deck + 1 (4 cards)
- Even if they brainstorm with the mana in draw they're seen 1+2+1 (4 cards)
This topic is covered by the primer too:
Tip: Versus a Sensei’s Divining Top, you should use the port-activation during the draw-step. The top-player will use top’s ability in response to the port-activation during upkeep, minimizing the loss of mana while setting up the draw. If you wait for the draw step, your opponent will have to pay anyway for his top, if he wants to set up his draw. After which you additionally port him.
Probably it should be pointed out which phase of the game is considered. Early game I usually find the situation considered by the primer: the Miracles player didn't activate top EoT because he had no mana left, and he will likely do it before drawing, hence porting during the draw step is the best line of play. That's not always true if he could activate top EoT: in this case, porting during draw step steals him one mana before he could play sorcery speed spells. If he uses that mana for top immediately, it's a mana lost anyway if he then uses cantrips, DTT or Jace.
Porting before main phase cuts off mana for sorceries. Most top users will use top end of turn. People who are hunting for cards will use it in their upkeep, before a draw but that is information we don't have because we can't see their hand. The safer assumption is to assume they have the cards they need (otherwise why did they keep the hand?) and it's better to disallow the extra card in their draw step from port. When they float mana, telegraphing brainstorm or dig through time it's best to let them cast it and then port additional lands. They were going to Dig anyways so why not let them port an additional land for you and then tag others in the next step.Quote:
Originally Posted by Morte
That's how I play my ports. I'm not trying to convince people their playstyles are wrong, just offering my point of view.
Question: it's your oponent's upkeep, he has priority. He asks if you want to use Port, which means you take priority. You keep priority till after he draws a card, so no Top-tricks... Right?
No. If he asks if you want to use your priority in upkeep and you say no, then your opponent will receive priority right after they draw their card. If you say yes and activate a port then your opponent will have priority to tap that land for mana and use top. Assuming they do nothing after using top you can act again. If you choose not to act then your opponent will receive priority immediately after drawing a card in their draw step.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chatto
The active player always receives priority first.
That's what I said. I take priority, he draws a card without using Top.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chatto
You don't "keep priority". Active player receives priority after drawing their card.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chatto
In fact, it is not that either you or your opponent (active player) keeps priority after that. If he passes priority at upkeep and you pass it in return, then you move on to the next phase (draw) and the opponent gets priority since he is the active player.
To come back to the top trick. To my mind, you should do it at upkeep if your opponent used his top during your end phase, since he won't see more cards doing so (doing it during the draw phase would enable him to see one more card).
However, if he doesn't, then you have two cases:
* He uses it at upkeep : then you can port another land in response, since he won't have any benefit using his top again (unless fetch or equivalent).
* He doesn't use it at upkeep : in this case, you should use the port during the draw step, which would force him to use his top.
xxxx* If the opponent doesn't shuffle his deck during his turn or yours, it is strictly equivalent as using top during the end of your next turn, so you can then use your top during the next upkeep.
xxxx* If he shuffles his deck, he is very likely to use his top during your next end phase.
Obviously, this is only my opinion on the play, and there might be flaws in my reasoning. However, I feel that we should force the use of the top as soon as possible to make the opponent make wrong choices or forget about the cards (upkeep if already topped before, or draw to force the your-end-of-turn top to be performed 2 turns earlier)
@ Chatto & Barcode:
You are pretty much saying the same thing. Yes, if the Top player asks you if you wanna do something, he gave you priority. So if you answer no, the game "automatically" goes to the draw step (so he indeed won't be able to activate top at upkeep, which was the important point of Chatto's observation here). And at the draw step, the Top player will recieve priority right after he drew, not you (barcode's point).
As noobish as it may sound, I never thought of this "trick" (which is more about knowing the rules of MtG ^^). Now I know, so thanks!
Hi there, i just finish to build this deck real and i'm happy to take part of this topic and community playing Lands...I read comments from page 30 til now and i have an idea that want to explain to all of you...this is my decklist playing right now:
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Maze of Ith
3 Dark Depths
2 Tranquil Thicket
2 Taiga
1 Karakas
1 Windswept Heath
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Forest
4 Crop Rotation
4 Punishing Fire
4 Gamble
4 Life from the Loam
4 Mox Diamond
4 Exploration
2 Manabond
1 Ghost Quarter
SB: 1 Dark Depths
SB: 4 Sphere of Resistance
SB: 4 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Trinisphere
SB: 1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Choke
SB: 1 Molten Vortex
I run the monocopy of Ghost Quarter maindeck instead of the fourth fetchland, I'm in the idea to not having more fetchland then pick for them (2 taiga and the basic forest) and i substitute the misty rainforest for the GQ maindeck, it has lot of targets and i think that could be a great spot in the deck...what do you think about it? It is wrong to cut the fourth fetchland for it?
I hope to give my help to this community and give soon some reports of tournaments
Hi!Quote:
Originally Posted by meso94
I'm pretty new to this deck too, but from what I read and tested, the fourth fetch land seems to be a dead card more often that it is useful.
The choice of GQ is quite widespread, but I think it depends on your meta. Bojuka Bog can be a really decent option maindeck too, and I have seen many lists packing a fourth depth to fasten the combo plan.
For my part, I chose to replace it with a Bayou to have access to Dark Confident post-side to help finding my own hate.
So to answer your question, I think it is a good choice, but choosing GQ over another utility card is a matter of meta to me.
I will agree on all accounts. That slot is very useful to "Patch up" the issues your having locally. I have had in it at times Ghost Quarter, Riftstone Portal, Karakas, Bojuka Bog, 4th Depths, Tower of the Magistrate and currently a second Tabernacle.
It's also possible to play with the numbers of other cards and raise and lower until you get what you need in there. Lists running multiple "Flex" Lands in the main have done very well proving that there is room to play with.
On a sidenote: GQ can also function as the fourth Fetch if needed. That's why to me it's a very strong card with a surprise element. Never changed it since the day I sleeved this deck. I do agree it's place can be debated, but I like GQ a lot.
That is true, I keep some "brown" hands without green sometimes when GQ is in opening hand because it is able to fetch for the basic forest and start recursion with loam...against lot of decks (I have in mind: Mud, bug, basic plains of miracles and more...) it's like a strip mine that can help us fighting basis, where wasteland can't arrive...it also give a plan against Omnitell in G1, by recurring GQ and Loam to hit all his Island (combined with Ports it can be devastating) that he plays in no more than 5/7 copies in main deck, it is really difficult...but sometimes could work well...
I'm working on a sideboard scheme on each MU...every help is appreciated if you want (or let me know if another one just exists)
The nice thing about 4x Gamble and 4x Crop Rotation is the speed they provide. These cards make it fairly easy to assemble Marit Lage by the third turn if the coast is clear. Often we will. Academy Ruins and Engineered Explosives are stellar when we are forced to play a slower, grindier style, but they have less value when we are playing quickly (and can even slow us down).Quote:
Originally Posted by CptHaddock
In my opinion, if we are going to plan for the slower game that EE and AR cater to, we should also be running the slower but less volatile tutors which blue enables (Intuition and Tolaria West). Incidentally, either of these can find us an EE. But at this point we are no longer playing RGCL, but a full on RUG build. RUG Lands is a fun and powerful, and in certain metas might be better choice (I go back and forth between the two). But trying to blend them is not as good. I've tried this from the other angle (running 2x Gamble and 3x Crop Rotation in a RUG build, with only 1x Intuition). I did okay like this, but I think straight R/G or straight RUG are both better than a hybrid.
I've yet to splash black in R/G, but when I do it will be for Nethervoid and/or Chains of Mephistopheles. Maybe I just like prisony control more than mid-rangy beat down.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
There's always Maze, and a main-deck Bog comes in handy. But I know how we sometimes get overwhelmed. I loath to spend an Abrupt Decay to kill a creature, as I prefer to have it handy when they drop a crippling artifact or enchantment. Sometimes it's the right play, of course, but even in a Maverick heavy meta I'd be hard pressed to run the over 4x Grip.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
If they ever print a Academy for Enchantments, I think these could be useful, but as the deck stands right now I feel you have better options. Almost everything Chains shuts down you can also effect with Choke and Void we could definitely use, but it is too slow to cast for my liking. I want that Academy though, even though it will never be printed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimhead
Nether Void in RGCL... Nether-Lands!
But seriously, when going the B-route would you don't just try s different build altogether?
Yeh, probably why I've yet to splashed black in RGCL yet! Also slots are hard to free up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
I like RUGb lands very much; and one of these days I'm going to sleeve up Jund Lands. The draw for Chains and Netherviod in R/G is that we can Gamble for it. Other builds will have to hope to draw them naturally, or more likely dredge them into oblivion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chatto
Lands is also a deck I love to tweak. I think only once did I ever run a list (at en event) exactly the same as I had at a previous event. So I like to try lots of different things - including possibly a black splash in R/G.
A man can dream...Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
New to this thread, made an account just to be part of it.
Been playing this deck at my FNMs for about 4 months now, doing reasonably well (10-25 entrants each week, meta about 60% fair 40% combo decks)
Just want to ask everyone's opinion on the deck's tranquil thicket count. I have been reading everyone's opinion on cutting the 4th fetch for a GQ or a bog, but around 2 months ago I cut mine to put in a third thicket.
I find it helps me keep some of the sketchy hands (I can go into this in detail if needed) and gives me much more game about boarded in gy hate.
Let me know your thoughts, I am playing the standard list w/ 4 depths and karakas & bog in the board.