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I'm currently thinking about sideboarding Bound/Determined as a 1 or 2 of, because it's great against counter/top. Although, it has terrible synergy with Dark Confidant and doesn't stop stifle. I'm also testing Rite of Flame as a wish target, again. I haven't liked it in the past but who knows. I don't know how good it is yet, but having one Seething Song in the maindeck has been pretty good.
i got a question, how much time do you use your maindeck diminishing return to have a higher storm count ?
I have replace the lone diminishing by a third abeyance , and i have been very pleased. Having some form of cantrip and defense is always nice, and it up my "must counter or loose" to 7.
Also, i found that confidant is really awesome in this deck, it help you to scult a perfect hand, it beat and all. Ok, sometime we can it turn one, and it get STPed or else, but well, still he is great.
Also, what answer do we have againt counterbalance ? Hull breach get hit by it, and reverent silence give your opponent life...Moreover, you have to wish for it, so counterbalance is already in play...Maybe some form of MD Pyroblast/red elemental blast ? But the MD is very tight, and i don't see how we could fit this in.
Holo.
When I tried it, Seething Song was a worse Tinder Wall.Quote:
Originally Posted by wastedlife
Personally, I use the MD Diminishing a lot. Not as much as the SB copy, but sometimes when you only have one LED and an Infernal and a rit, something like that. IGG may not cinch it for you, so MD returns picks it up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Holo_rip
Also, we can't play Reverent Silence because it specifies you have to control a Forest :frown:
Quote:
Originally Posted by yawg07
Sure you can. Before we were playing Tranquility in the board, and Reverent Silence does the exact same thing for the same mana requirement. I'm not sure if its really necessary in the board. I really haven't run into a situation where you need a spell to destroy multiple enchantments. I'm a big fan of simplify as it solves the one enchantment that you care about for a single green mana.
Actually Reverent Silence costs 3G, Tranquility costs 2G.Quote:
Originally Posted by nickrit2000
I wish Tranquil Domain was a Sorcery haha
Yeah, I play Simplify as well :) I find it is the best card for that mana investment.
There ARE actually multiple enchantments to worry about.
Playing in a meta where White Stax rears its ugly head, I can attest to that.
Rule of Law
Ghostly Prison
Those are both terrible for TES. Sometimes you DO need to blow em both up.
But in general, TES eats it to White Stax on games 2/3 unless you go first turn into the win or they get a bad draw.
If I think the white stax players will be around, I'll pack the 2-3 Shattering Sprees in the board in lieu of the Krosan Grips.
My bad on that. Your right, I totally wasn't thinking about the casting cost when I compared those two cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by yawg07
Lately, in TES I'm replacing the 2 Abeyances in the deck for Cabal Rituals. I just like the added mana acceleration as it helps against a lot of decks that don't play blue cards. It seems like I always tend to find multiple Orim's Chants against control decks which helps me win the game.
The one matchup I do not want to see is Stax or any deck that plays main deck Chalice or Trinisphere. Overall, there aren't too many matchups were I'm too worried about. Lately, there has been a lot of control decks here in Syracuse which is why I tend to play Vial Goblins quite a bit.
Abeyance has been too much lately. Right now I'm back to testing 2x Draw 4's and 2x Cabal Ritual over 2x Abeyance, 1x Empty the warrens (Leaving 0, I haven't won a game with the card since I added Bob), and a SSG. It's been pretty good.
I don't like draw 4's and bob in the same list. Atm I have 2 different lists I like. One runs draw 4's and ponders, the other runs bobs and 2 abeyances. I'm not crazy about abeyance, but I'm not crazy about bob either. I personally prefer the list with ponders since it is much faster, but bob can also be amazing in some matchups. I feel that the bob list is straying too far from the goal of the deck which is to kill as fast as possible while getting around counters/hate.
Andrew: Can you post the decklist with ponders
/Henrik
I've found that ponder just isn't worth it. You spend too much mana cantripping with 4 Brainstorm 3-4 ponder and not enough on winning. With my current set-up I cast 1 Draw spell and just win vs. Control. I play in a very blue metagame. Dark Confidant has been pretty good against blue based stratagies, as well as the draw 4 plan. With both you just out draw control and win with double or sometimes triple back-up.
I'll admit with Bob in the deck the deck is a little slow but a lot more stable against blue. Right now there's not a better replacement. Ponder and Brainstorm is just too many cantrips.
Why are people playing Sb Pyroblast instead of Duress?
For a topdeckked counterbalance.
But I don't like both duress and puroblast in side.
I don't think that will happen enough compared to having to discard the 'Blast to LED.
You use blast to back-up chants or kill Counterbalances. It also counters Force of Will on draw 4's.
And why does it back up better than Duress? You could just use the Duress first.
Duress doesn't take care of a blue card called Counterbalance when it's topdecked or already on the table.
Blast rarely does either, but it's still slightly better than Duress.
But at the other side, I dont see Pyroblast stop a Deed/EE/etc. when you combo with EtW...
And how many times will they topdeck the Balance (most players play 3), I think there are more games they have a EE/Deed ore something in their hand when you combo with EtW...
Duress also helps if the Balance was in their hand,, that will be the most of the time..
"You use blast to back-up chants or kill Counterbalances. It also counters Force of Will on draw 4's"
O, and Duress doesnt take the FoW out of their hand?
And can you post a recent list with Draw4's,, I'm very interested, I wanted to make a build with them myself but it didn't work bether then a build without them...
I very rarely win with ETW, I haven't won a game with the card in over a month.
// Lands
4 [AN] City of Brass
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
1 [VI] Undiscovered Paradise
// Creatures
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
// Spells
1 [AL] Diminishing Returns
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [R] Dark Ritual
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
1 [PT] Cruel Bargain
1 [MI] Infernal Contract
2 [TO] Cabal Ritual
1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
2 [LRW] Ponder
1 [MR] Seething Song
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [AL] Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [PT] Cruel Bargain
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 3 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [B] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [US] Duress
SB: 1 [IA] Pyroclasm
SB: 1 [OD] Simplify
SB: 2 [WL] Abeyance
This is what I've been using lately. Them pitching a card to Force and losing a life for the same mana value is worth more, compared to Duress where they still have the extra card.
Why do you play the lonely Song? What would your board plan look like against Thresh and other aggro-control decks? I know it would be +4 Blasts and +2 Abeyance, anything else? And what do you side out?
Quote:
Originally Posted by wastedlife
BUT Pyroblast doesnt help us if we have it without chant. If we want to Combo with LED duress helps a lot more than Pyroblast. With Chant they are normaly equal.
Be a good player and don't resort to comboing out before you're ready. Just because you can combo out doesn't mean you should. That or learn how to properly bait spells and back them up with the blast so your real business spell can get through.
Seething Song is in the deck because 3 Cabal Ritual was too clunky, and 3 ponder you spent too much time cantripping. Seething Song produces an additional RR like Dark Ritual does BB, which is another way to think about it. Think of it like Cabal Ritual when you don't have threshold.
Hmm, sorry but I don't understand: some posts ago you say that with ponder there are too many cantrip and if we play them, we spend time only to play cantrip instead to winning. And I thought you're right.
But now you post a list with ponder. Why?
After a period when I play draw4 I return to play more solid cards like plunge.
Perhaps you play in a meta full of landstill, but in a meta with mana denials (wasteland,...), elements of lock (trini, chalice, rishadan) and fast clock (pyllar,...) I'm continuing to prefer cards like plunge.
2 Ponder seems to be a good number because you won't be cantripping into more cantrips. But instead more business spells.Quote:
Originally Posted by jegger
Draw 4's are good in any metagame, they allow you to be more agressive with your mulligans for one, they fix terrible hands. They're must counters, or else the countermagic player will be overwhelmed. In a Stax metagame draw 4's put you ahead in resources compared to plunge.Quote:
After a period when I play draw4 I return to play more solid cards like plunge.
Perhaps you play in a meta full of landstill, but in a meta with mana denials (wasteland,...), elements of lock (trini, chalice, rishadan) and fast clock (pyllar,...) I'm continuing to prefer cards like plunge.
Isnt abeyance to slow? Ok, draw the cards is good,, but sometimes keep 1 mana for Chant is hard, now you need 2 mana more..
And i think that the Duress/Pyroblast discussion depends on your meta,, i now have 4 Chant main against control, and then 3 Swarms in the side, i keep mu 4 Duress,, so I also have protection against non-counter decks (cards like deed/EE)...
And i think i go test the draw4's.. I have a set of both (for SI) so I can normally start testing them :P
Mvg
I was just wondering if the best way to go in TES is to cut dark confidant main and play either more card draw or mana acceleration? I liked the addition of dark confidant b/c it really improves the control matchups by not only drawing more cards, but being able to find Orim's Chant which is very important.
I've seen Wastedlife many times get a few dark confidants out on the first turn and go crazy a few turns after. I'm not sold if cutting dark confidant is the best move possible for this deck. I believe he does add a lot to consistency.
From the old Goblins thread, "Is consistency better than speed?"Quote:
Originally Posted by nickrit2000
I have not tried Confidants yet, but draw 4s seem to draw you just as much as Confidant would. But since I haven't tested Confidants, some one else should.
Dark Confidant has to stay on the table 4 turns in order to draw 4 cards. Why not just draw all 4 in one turn and not slow the deck down? That was my reasoning in cutting confidant.
My thoughts exactly. I am going to try and play this list soon.Quote:
Originally Posted by wastedlife
Lands
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Undiscovered Paradise
Creatures
4 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Xantid Swarm
Spells
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
2 Infernal Contract
4 Brainstorm
1 EtW
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 LED
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Orim's Chant
2 Cabal Ritual
Sideboard
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Infernal Contract
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Pyroblast
2 Xantid Swarm
1 Shattering Spree
1 Duress
1 Pyroclasm
1 Tranquility
Only 2 Xantid Swarm seems silly. It's either 4 or 0, not between.
Edited for.... well, everything. Please refer to the Site Rules before posting again. -Jander
I probably need to fit 2 more in, but am having a hard time making the decision. I most likely will move them all to the SB, but then that makes that harder. :frown: . I hopefully will be able to test when I can find some Swarms.
I played the list with 2 Ponder,1 song and 2 draw4 spells yesterday on a local tournament and run 4-1. I lost against NQG/b with Stifles,Thoughtseize,Counterbalance and the normal Counter`s so i think i don`t have to shame for that :) I liked the list except the fact that it has only 9 lands. I think I will cut the last EtW for the 2nd Paradise because i had to mulligan more often than i do normaly and even the UW Bird.dec was able tohandle 10 TOkens on turn 1 -.-. But song and Ritual are really good.
My 35 cent,
NQN
I HATE, HATE, HATE Simplify and am not playing it. Back to Tranquility, playing some games last night I was playing vs. a deck with counterbalance. Counter/top stops Simplify cold. Tranquility breezes buy it. This happened in at least 3 games.
@ 9 lands- In my testing so far it's been fine, if I want to go back to 10 I'll probably cut the Seething Song. Seething Song is just an idea I've been testing as of late, innovation can't hurt as long as you know when to stop or when it's bad. One Seething Song doesn't seem to hurt the deck so far, but I'm not sure if it'll be staying.
@ Xantid Swarms- It may not be a bad idea to play these instead of Abeyance in the sideboard as a 2 of. It does only cost one. Jak, it's not 4 or 0. Playing two to back four Chant is perfectly fine.
I'm gonna play TES this weekend at the national tournament of my country, with this list (no Orim's Chants,, simple because I don't have them yet):
// Lands 11
4 [CH] City of Brass
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
1 [SOK] Tomb of Urami
2 [VI] Undiscovered Paradise
// Creatures 7
4 [SC] Xantid Swarm
3 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
// Spells 42
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [R] Dark Ritual
1 [AL] Diminishing Returns
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
2 [PT] Cruel Bargain
4 [5E] Brainstorm
1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
3 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
3 [TO] Cabal Ritual
2 [LRW] Ponder
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [AL] Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [PT] Cruel Bargain
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 4 [US] Duress
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 4 [5E] Pyroblast
Tips? Or questions why I play some cards?
Mvg
First off the land count seems high. I have loved the 9 land set up of:
4 Gemstone
4 City Of Brass
1 Undiscovered Paradise
Tomb has never been that great so at least cut that one. 4 Simian Spirit Guides and 4 Chrome Mox seems mandatory. I would compliment the Swarms with some other sort of protection like Duress, maybe cutting the Ponders(Haven't tested the 6 cantrip combination and don't really see the need in my playing of the deck especially with draw 4's).
At the very least:
-1 Tomb Of Urami
-1 Cabal Ritual
+1 Simian Spirit Guide
+1 Chrome Mox
I played this list to a 6-1-1 finish tonight at my local store. Beating a variety of different decks, from Goblins to MUC. My one loss was a very close match vs. Blue skies in which I made a misplay game three which lost me the match.
// Lands
4 [AN] City of Brass
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
2 [VI] Undiscovered Paradise
// Creatures
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
// Spells
1 [AL] Diminishing Returns
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [R] Dark Ritual
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
1 [PT] Cruel Bargain
1 [MI] Infernal Contract
2 [TO] Cabal Ritual
1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
2 [LRW] Ponder
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [AL] Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [PT] Cruel Bargain
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 3 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [B] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [US] Duress
SB: 1 [B] Tranquility
SB: 2 [SC] Xantid Swarm
SB: 1 [IA] Pyroclasm
I was looking at Jak's list and I think 2x Xantid in the board is probably better than 2x Abeyance because of threat density. I know, I know, I'm very complusive when it comes to cards going in and out of TES. I change my opinion on cards very fast, it's not that they're bad or shouldn't be in the deck. It's that I think there's something better at the moment. The draw 4's were crazy good today, I can even explain how many games they won me. With this list here, I've never had so many turn 1 wins with the deck I believe. It feels like I was playing a way more consistent version of Belcher.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Horror Business
I cutted 1 U. Paradise for a 4th Cabal Ritual, thats card is sooo good against discard, see that many times in this meta. I love it.
I never missed the 4th Mox/SSG. Mox isnt good if you have 2 or more and SSG doesnt count for storm.. I can get enough Red mana.
I'm also thinking of playing 4 Ponder and 2 Brainstorm. Ponder let you shuffle, thats very important when you cant even combo with the cards you draw/reveal. Brainstorm let you wait at least 2 turns then. But Ponder lets you shuffle!
Also the Draw4's werent good enough, i winned some games with them (turn 1 Bargain (D. Ritual) and Brainstorm (Chrome mox with Ponder)! gives you a good hand to combo turn 2. But most of the times,, the oppo had a to fast clock after him, so he beated me dead,, 20 and 10 lives realy makes the difference.
Maybe a second Tendrils. Now you sometimes dont want to discard for a LED, cause later that turn you maybe want to search with Tutor. Also, remove it with D. Returns can be hard, and when you play 2, you draw it many more times after D. Returns.
When you play Wish, with many mana and few storm, you would take the IGG many times, but Wish removes itself, so if there isnt an Tutor in your grave thats hard. So maybe play something as a Tutor in the side (1-off) to wish for,, and then tutor for an IGG, then there is a Tutor in the grave and you could combo..
What do you think?
Mvg
Paradise, Mox and SSG are in the deck to provide the initial mana you need to cast your rituals. With less of them in the deck you'll find more hands that you can't keep because you can't cast all the Dark Rituals, Rite of Flames etc. Not to mention the setup spells that you can't cast because of the lower land count.Quote:
Originally Posted by dlevsApiJ
Brainstorm is still better than Ponder in this deck because you sometimes have lots of dead cards in your hand that you want to put back on top. For example if you have 2x LED, 2 Lotus Petal, 1 Infernal Tutor and 1 Ill-Gotten Gains in hand the best play would be to play the tutor for IGG and crack LED's in response but because IGG is in your hand you have to go for DReturns.Quote:
I'm also thinking of playing 4 Ponder and 2 Brainstorm. Ponder let you shuffle, thats very important when you cant even combo with the cards you draw/reveal. Brainstorm let you wait at least 2 turns then. But Ponder lets you shuffle!
You should always try to calculate when your opponent is going to kill you so you can determine whether casting a Draw-4 as a setup or during comboing is the correct move. Sometimes this also means taking a mulligan or putting the Draw-4 back on top with Brainstorm even though you could cast it.Quote:
Also the Draw4's werent good enough, i won some games with them (turn 1 Bargain (D. Ritual) and Brainstorm (Chrome mox with Ponder)! gives you a good hand to combo turn 2. But most of the times,, the oppo had a to fast clock after him, so he beated me dead,, 20 and 10 lives realy makes the difference.
Playing 2 Tendrils main is wrong most of the time. This deck has so many ways to victory even when the Tendrils is discarded or rfg'ed that you generally don't care. For example you can always grab Tendrils with Burning Wish. Discarded Tendrils can be brought back via IGG which again can be tutored for with BWish or most of the time IT. If the Tendrils is unreachable you also have Empty the Warrens as backup. Although not quite as strong in finishing if played after turn 1, a Warrens for 18-20 Goblins plus Orim's Chant will give your opponent serious headaches.Quote:
Maybe a second Tendrils. Now you sometimes dont want to discard for a LED, cause later that turn you maybe want to search with Tutor. Also, remove it with D. Returns can be hard, and when you play 2, you draw it many more times after D. Returns.
In these situations (lots of mana, low storm, only BWish as Tutor) wishing for DReturns or a Draw-4 can also be quite good. The chance to get absolutely nothing to continue the combo when you go for DReturns is not that high. Especially if you can float a blue mana for Brainstorm/Ponder. Also remember that you still have Empty the Warrens as an option to stall or (if you can make about 10 tokens) race.Quote:
When you play Wish, with many mana and few storm, you would take the IGG many times, but Wish removes itself, so if there isnt an Tutor in your grave thats hard. So maybe play something as a Tutor in the side (1-off) to wish for,, and then tutor for an IGG, then there is a Tutor in the grave and you could combo..
I hope I didn't miss too much as it's been a long time since I last played TES. Anyway I hope this helps.
@dlevsApiJ: have you been the guy that made second place with TES at Dutch Legacy Champs?
http://www.kvdeckmasters.nl/Forum/in...2285#msg172285
How many participants had the tournament?