When you are facing down a Goyf and you need to top deck something relevant like a Slogger or Akroma and you flip a Mauler. That is a bad topdeck.
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When you are facing down a Goyf and you need to top deck something relevant like a Slogger or Akroma and you flip a Mauler. That is a bad topdeck.
If you really think that Mauler is a "good" topdeck on turn 6, then by all means, play him.Quote:
Originally Posted by savemysoul
Personally, I want to run unconditionally good/effective creatures, that can be equally effective regardless of when they are drawn/resolved. Sulfur Elemental fits into my requirements, Taurean Mauler does not.
Yes, Jak is correct. Mauler was appealing upon first glance, but testing has shown that it is just an awful card in the deck after turn 1/2, and even then I'd rather drop disruption or a bomb like a dragon or Slogger. Any time you see him mid/late game you really wish he was another creature.
"your opponent has a Tarmo who will eat a brand new mauler alive"Quote:
Originally Posted by savemysoul
or.. "your opponent will stp it"
it is mediocre IMHO.
Ok let`s see when facing down a Goyf you topdeck a ... elemental yeah !, much more gamebreaking. But if you get a mauler, your opponent won`t play any spells but only beat with goyf thus making his a better topdeck in the situation you presented
ok lets see turn six you get a 3/2 or turn six you get 2/2, i agree that on hand elemental is better, but in a turn or two mauler will become much better with the option of growing out of hand/sealing the game
If I cast my Elemental during my opponent's Goyf attack phase, in order to suprise chump block him, now allowing me to swing with my men untouched, then yes, Elemental > Mauler by alot.Quote:
Originally Posted by savemysoul
Mauler has zero versatility or utility. A resolved Mauler is particularly weak past turn 3. This is fact. Again, if you feel as though Mauler's growth potential outweighs Sulfur's numerous positives and potential for sneakiness, then by all means, play your Mauler.
Yes but the issue with mauler is that unlike Sulfer he DOES suck after turn 1-3. Also there ARE far better things for the deck to drop turns 1-3 so really Mauler although seemingly good (as well as having the perfect mana cost) has no place is DS.Quote:
Originally Posted by savemysoul
arsenal who said anything about any creatures on your side ? with creatures mauler would be even more gold : mauler + 5/5 raiders, slogger, hellbent dragon. I don`t think that goyf would attack with any of thoose on board, if he would, he would loose goyf and if he would play another spell kazam ! Mauler is on his way to becoming a big threat
Lol, okay. Keep on playing your conditionally, sorta-kinda-maybe good Mauler. I'll stick with unconditional efficiency and consistency in any other creature (Sulfur, Akroma) at that slot.Quote:
Originally Posted by savemysoul
my list is the same as i posted it with 20 creatures and without akromas, maulers or sulfurs main. If I find room to fit in more creatures those will be maulers cuz they proven the most effective in my testing (not sure about akroma, I only know i haven`t flipped her in maybe 50 games i tryed her.)
Hrm... Are you just goldfishing or casting seething song in obvious situations (i.e. in combat)? I have no problems flipping Akroma (I run 2). A 2-mana land and 2 red sources and a seething song... but I intentionally cast creatures with this deck in pre-combat main at times to facilitate such ploys.Quote:
Originally Posted by savemysoul
i play 3 songs and usualy i spend one on a slogger
Translated: I can trade with a creature that costs 2/3 as much as I do, and which no-one plays anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
Indeed, from the fury of White Weenie protect us, Oh Lord.Quote:
I kill/disable White Weenie hordes.
True. That's its major selling point, especially if you include the ability to screw up damage races (by dropping a threat at EOT).Quote:
I can play neat combat tricks.
So is Bloodrock Cyclops.Quote:
I'm equally effective mid/late game as I am on turn 1.
MUC aside, decks these days run 8 hard counters at the most. If Elemental didn't have Split Second, it would still be allowed to resolve 90% of the time, considering that there are far more dangerous bombs in Dragon Stompy to watch for.Quote:
I'm virtually guaranteed to resolve.
The exception is Daze, against which Sulfur Elemental gives you the option to drop something worthwhile before you get the extra mana required to dodge it.
Except you're taking my entire post out of context; I was comparing Sulfur Elemental to Taurean Mauler. As such, the "Bloodrock Cyclops" comment doesn't hold a whole lot of water as, again in context, Sulfur > Mauler in terms of many things, one of them being able to be effective turn 1 to turn 100. The same cannot be said about Mauler.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nihil
Taurean Mauler cannot trade with Grunt, without assistance from opponent. Also, Grunt is played in Legacy, I don't know what meta you play in, but Grunt is a commonly used creature in Legacy.
WW is something you will ALWAYS come up against at any tourney of decent size. Maybe not in your circle of playtesters, but go to any 40+ tourney, and you will see jank like this there.
If you want to make witty replies to my post, at least do it within the correct context.
The only card you will give to feed Grunt is the one you pitch to gathan + what they counter. I don`t fear 2 turns lasting Grunts much.
Plus any fetch, cantrip and other stuff he put in HIS GY, If I am not wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by savemysoul
yea like i said two turns
hey everyone this is my cutrrent maindeck list
Lands
10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
Creatures
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Arc-Slogger
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
Spells
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song
3 Blood Moon
3 Trinisphere
3 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
I actualy need help on my side board. My meta is filled with a lot of threhold and not too much combo. I was thinkng about including some amount of Tephraderm since they eat Tarmogoyf for breakfast, but I understand the pros and cons to him, including his mana cost. The only thing I dont really want to get for the side is pithing needle because of its cost, but I do not mind breaking the bank too much if they are neccisary because the whgole deck is pretty economical. Also I am pretty sure that I want to add another trinisphere in side also just because it is rediculus, but not in all matchups. Any suggestions for the side are welcome!
I think this main board is particulay strong and straight forward. I tried Akroma, Angel of Fury and Sulfur Elemental, and found them to be a bit janky for my taistes (although the whole deck seems like that sometimes on bad draws.) I also like the equiptment ratio since Jitte is the best but four is too many.
I really think they both suck. If I had room I would probably play with Sulfur Elemental, but it is not worth cutting anything in my list. Mauler is bad. Don't compare it to Standstill because drawing 3 is so much more powerful than turning your 2/2 into a 3/3. Your opponent will be glad to still play spells. Actually they probably won't be able to play spells at all. You play 7-8 moon effects, Chalice, and maybe Trinisphere. Can we stop discussing Mauler? It sucks.
maagler as for your list, if thresh is mostly your meta add another sphere and moon, they really roll to that, goyf can usually be raced with dragon/raiders/slogger
nobody said its more powerfull than standstill, im just saying they need to get rid of it ASAP if they play spells or he`ll be 6/6 in no time
Andy in out current meta I highly recommend this sideboard:
3 Pithing Needle
3 Powder Keg
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pyroclasm
2 Ingot Chewer
1 Blood Moon
As you know I've been playing the deck for quite a while and this board is highly tested.
Also switch out you SOFI for SOLS pro swords, life gain, and not having awful synergy RPD all make it simply better.
Tom, Have you tried pyrokinisis? I have not tested it extensivly but it looks like it would have good synergy with helbent. also do you dissagree with a 4th trinsphere in side, or in main?
Thanks, Andy
I've tested it, but it has the 2 major flaws of being awful when your in topdeck mode (which happens often due to hellbent being so crucial) and the fact that There is so much thresh in our meta and Trinisphere is just needed which obv has bad synergy with Kenesis.
As for Sphere number 4 I say don't bother three is plenty since having multiples is just pointless and you really would never end up siding in the 4th.
hey, I've been wondering about a couple Fledgling Dragons...any good? It goes decent with Hellbent, they get decent sized, have auto-evasion as opposed to Pit Dragon, still have firebreathing. I know they are additional 4cc slots, but does it matter that much? I was thinking of them in place of Sulfur Elementals. Thoughts? After all, we do call it Dragon Stompy...
This deck getting Threshold requires an act of god.*Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
If you think Fledgling is worth it unthreshed, go for it. I don't.
*Or a Wrath of God. Which could be considered as the former.
If only there were a similar creature of similar casting cost with more explosive abilities that was determined not by the number of cards in the yard, but by the number of cards in our hand or something...Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
/jerk
In all seriousness, unless they start printing Spirit Guides with dredge (Hmmm), Threshold creatures are right out.
And yeah, I'm not excited about more 4cc spots, espicially of the :r::r: variety. I mean, if they print another critter of Pit Dragons power level, then we'll have to consider it, but right now there are so many quality 3cc options that there is no reason to bump the curve up.
They are not really good unless you plan to be very creative to figure out how to pull it off to make the Threshold effects worth the while.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
Otherwise it is best not to go with that sort of plan.
So does Slogger, Akroma, Hellbent Raiders and Dragon, anything wielding Jitte/Sword, and Tormod's Crypt. So does Taurean Mauler on occasion. Most of the top decks in Legacy don't run this guy, so this isn't a huge plus.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
In my play experience, Sulfur Elemental usually makes WW even more dangerous. The only things he kills out of combat are Decree of Justice tokens, Mangara, and the odd Savannah Lions. Granted, he's pretty sick in multiples vs. WW, but it's a rare occasion to draw two of them, especially if you're only running two like most lists that run him. It's not like WW is some huge deck either. What he does most of the time is make Silver Knight a 3/1 pro-red, first striker, which is even more of a pain to deal with, and make the rest of their creatures swing for more damage. We already damage ourselves plenty without making our opponent's creatures more lethal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
That is about the extent of Sulfur Elemental's advantages. Occasionally, I'll kill a Bob, or a non-Threshed Mongoose, but otherwise I haven't done much worth noting with Elemental. For all the talk of him being a pseudo-removal spell, I've rarely seen it work to any great effect, and it's not like DS has tons of creatures that it can't/needs to deal with. Usually, he trades with a creature of about equal value. I will concede that Elemental will win an odd game where your opponent relies on you not being able to alpha strike him and that is his greatest strength.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
I disagree. Sulfur Elemental turn one is far from an ideal play. I'd rather play anything in the deck turn one than Elemental, except for Akroma (morphed), SSG, a lone Jitte, or nothing. Taurean Mauler, on the other hand, is a good turn one or two play. People are stupid afraid of Mauler (perhaps unjustly so, but afraid nonetheless). They almost always spend a counter or removal spell on him that they should be saving for a Moon or a superior creature. People rarely waste removal on a Sulfur Elemental. Mauler is poor in the late game, but I don't see why Sulfur is so awesome outside of the odd uninformed attack by the opponent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
Split Second on Elemental is nice vs MBC and similar decks, but most decks aren't threatened enough by him to counter him anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
Pro's of Mauler:
Good early play
People overrate his value and go out of their way to kill him
Can potentially be huge
Randomly good vs Countersliver and Storm decks when they fail to go off.
Con's of Mauler:
Sub-par late-game topdeck.
Poor synergy with Chalice and Trinisphere.
Pro's of Sulfur Elemental
Can't be countered.
Can pull combat tricks.
Good vs slow control (kills Decree of Justice tokens, can't be countered).
Can be good vs White Weenie.
Con's of Sulfur Elemental
Can be bad vs White Weenie (increased damage).
Sub-par early play.
Isn't much of a threat by himself.
Actually, the most common creature killed by Sulfur Elemental is Harmonic Sliver.*
This can actually be pretty significant. Against Slivers, an active Harmonic Sliver can seriously hurt you, as it'll keep you off Chalice, Jitte, and Chrome Mox. Survival decks often pack a Harmonic and a Darkheart, and they also often pack Cabal Therapy. A Sulfur Elemental in play means that Darkheart can't act as Harmonic #2 and that Harmonic #1 can't stick around to be a Cabal Therapy. Or a chump blocker, which can be just enough to win you a game on occasion.
On rare occasions it'll go LOL at a Decree of Justice, but smart players hardcast Decree against DS, and if they get time and mana to get a Decree off, you probably lost.
*This excludes flashing him in front of a Creature during the attack step.
I didn't know Sulfur Elemental had flying. I'd love to chump Hoofprint tokens with him too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
Also, Fledgling Dragon is kinda bad here...I think that a 2/2 flier for 4 is not that great. Sure a 5/5 Flying Firebreather is kinda hot, but getting Threshold in this deck is not too easy. City of Traitors and Seething Song are going to be the only consistent things to hit the yard, along with countered goods. So if all is going well, we might have 3-4 cards in our graveyard. He's really good if he is resolved and we are losing though (if we have thresh that is...). Otherwise, a morphed dude is going to be easier to cast and as tough, though lacking evasion.
Yeah, er, that wasn't me. That was my retarded twin who I ordinarily keep locked in the closet breaking free just long enough to make Dragon Stompy posts.:PQuote:
Originally Posted by chokin
The thing about the Harmonic Sliver is valid, though.
Good point about Harmonic, but I've found (or thought) the creature it kills most is Nomads en-Kor. Breakfast has a terrible time going off with one down (and never forget the split second uncounterable-ness) and two down can shut them off from Shaman en-Kor.
There are plenty of UWG Thresh builds that I've seen run him main, but also in the SB (helpful in the mirror). I've also seen many UWB Fish decks run him. While UWB Fish isn't a major force anymore, UWG Thresh is. True, we already have a decent matchup versus Thresh, but I don't mind being able to have a better one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuma
There are plenty of times that -1 against a White creature will matter; WW deck or other. Tacosnape and Phantom helped explain this.Quote:
In my play experience, Sulfur Elemental usually makes WW even more dangerous. The only things he kills out of combat are Decree of Justice tokens, Mangara, and the odd Savannah Lions. Granted, he's pretty sick in multiples vs. WW, but it's a rare occasion to draw two of them, especially if you're only running two like most lists that run him. It's not like WW is some huge deck either. What he does most of the time is make Silver Knight a 3/1 pro-red, first striker, which is even more of a pain to deal with, and make the rest of their creatures swing for more damage. We already damage ourselves plenty without making our opponent's creatures more lethal.
Playing combat tricks, messing with opponent's endgame math, etc. are all awesome. Glad we agree.Quote:
That is about the extent of Sulfur Elemental's advantages. Occasionally, I'll kill a Bob, or a non-Threshed Mongoose, but otherwise I haven't done much worth noting with Elemental. For all the talk of him being a pseudo-removal spell, I've rarely seen it work to any great effect, and it's not like DS has tons of creatures that it can't/needs to deal with. Usually, he trades with a creature of about equal value. I will concede that Elemental will win an odd game where your opponent relies on you not being able to alpha strike him and that is his greatest strength.
I'm not saying that I'd cast Mauler over a Morphed Raiders if I was playing on turn 1. I'm saying that whether I draw Sulfur in my opening hand, or draw him on turn 5, he's equally effective at what he's supposed to do. Yes, we understand that Mauler is good on turn 1/2. But beyond that?Quote:
I disagree. Sulfur Elemental turn one is far from an ideal play. I'd rather play anything in the deck turn one than Elemental, except for Akroma (morphed), SSG, a lone Jitte, or nothing. Taurean Mauler, on the other hand, is a good turn one or two play. People are stupid afraid of Mauler (perhaps unjustly so, but afraid nonetheless). They almost always spend a counter or removal spell on him that they should be saving for a Moon or a superior creature. People rarely waste removal on a Sulfur Elemental. Mauler is poor in the late game, but I don't see why Sulfur is so awesome outside of the odd uninformed attack by the opponent.
I don't agree with your Pro/Cons list entirely, but the bottom line is this, if you must race your opponent and absolutely need a legit threat to resolve and swing/carry Jitte, I'd much rather have Sulfur Elemental in my hand than Taurean Mauler (the only exception being on turn 1/2).Quote:
Split Second on Elemental is nice vs MBC and similar decks, but most decks aren't threatened enough by him to counter him anyway.
Pro's of Mauler:
Good early play
People overrate his value and go out of their way to kill him
Can potentially be huge
Randomly good vs Countersliver and Storm decks when they fail to go off.
Con's of Mauler:
Sub-par late-game topdeck.
Poor synergy with Chalice and Trinisphere.
Pro's of Sulfur Elemental
Can't be countered.
Can pull combat tricks.
Good vs slow control (kills Decree of Justice tokens, can't be countered).
Can be good vs White Weenie.
Con's of Sulfur Elemental
Can be bad vs White Weenie (increased damage).
Sub-par early play.
Isn't much of a threat by himself.
how would you play a hand with:
traitors, mountain, song, dragon, moon, simian ( -1 cause mulligan)
Not enough information - playing or drawing? any idea what you're playing against? If you do, does it have counterspells? Quick pinpoint removal? Is it heavy on non-basics or is it heavy with basics? Game 1, 2 or 3?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rinello
Would have to see the first two draws... but against a generic deck... Turn 1 mountain... Turn 2 Traitors into Simian Spirit Guide-Dragon generally, particularly if the draw is a permanent mana source... Then Turn 3, if it was a mana source, Song, Moon, Land, Empty hand, Rar Rar Dragon. Rush Moon if you see them fetching non-basics...Quote:
Originally Posted by Rinello
I probably wouldn't lead Mountain, Go on this hand like I would occasionally do on a seven-card hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rinello
Unless I knew specifically that doing so wasn't a good play based on my opponent's deck, my opening play would be City of Traitors, pitch SSG, Moon, pass. If your Moon gets Forced, you probably lose, but with this hand? If your opponent had a Force you probably were going to lose anyway. Your chances of stealing a win on a first turn moon here are pretty high, and when you have to mull to 6, you need to take chances at instant wins.
I might go Mountain, Go here if I knew my Moon wouldn't be very effective even if it hit. Also, against certain decks where speed mattered most, I might drop the Dragon turn one off SSG/Song. A lot depends on your information.
Unfortunately, this is a horrible deck to ever goldfish... Goldfishing Dragon Stompy is like selecting a club for golf, blindfolded. The only blind swing I almost always take is if I'm on the go, if I see Chalice for 1 with ancient tomb or mox, I take it. If I can get a read on my opponent, I *might* choose Moon over it as a quick-drop. Sometimes, your opponent just... reacts as humans do after you play an ancient tomb and tap it... expecting a Chalice. That reaction might cause me to throw down the Mox/SSG and go for a Moon of some form instead if I have both. After I see my opponent's first play, I then kick up the spurs... I only Operation: Dumbo Drop if I know what my opponent is playing or I have no other real plays...
My play G1-go would have also been city, ssg -> moon and hope to some day draw a land or something. I was a little worried though if I play too risky but seeing that Taco would have made the same play makes me feel a little happy.
The bad thing is that if your opp. scoops before his first turn it's really difficult to sb correctly :rolleyes:
Out of curiosity, how would you play this godly hand g1,go:
mountain, tomb, chalice, magus, song, slogger, ssg ?
I think I'd just play safe and go with the most of it:
1) tomb -> chalice
2) mountain -> magus
3) rfg ssg, song -> arse-slogger (that's how finnish usually pronounce it, not intentionally though)
But I am tempted to go first turn slogger, second turn magus.
Or you could just mulligan it and hope to get to play some actual magic :tongue:
Assuming you know absolutely nothing about the deck your opponent is playing?Quote:
Originally Posted by deviant
I'd be very tempted to just say the hell with the Arc-Slogger and go Tomb, SSG, Song, Chal-1, Magus. There are very very few decks in existence that can deal with a Moon effect and a Chal-1 being down before they get an opening turn, and almost none of them can do it consistently. If the Slogger were, say, a Gathan Raiders (Or any other 3-drop sans maybe Akroma), you automatically take this route.
The safer (and probably wiser) play is to just go Tomb, Chalice-1, setting yourself up for either a turn two Song/Slogger with protection from STP, or a Magus of the Moon if you need it more.* Plus, Tomb/Chal-1 doesn't tell your opponent for certain what you're playing. Tomb, Chalice-1, go is never bad against an unknown opponent.
Also, If the Magus were a regular Blood Moon, you definitely take the second option, because the first play is only decent with a threat involved.
If you know what deck you're up against, you decide what you need on the board when. There are definitely cases where the turn one Moon is correct, and same for the turn one Slogger. There are also cases against control decks (Or certain other decks) where the correct play might be Mountain, Go aiming to set up a Chalice for 2 the next turn.
*I'll always play the Magus before the Song/Slogger here if my opponent's first land drop is a nonbasic (excluding a fetchland) or sometimes, a Swamp. The reason you don't lead the Slogger into the swamp is to avoid the 600 black creature removal spells that cost :1::b:, especially Edict effects which the Magus can guard against. However, by holding the Slogger back here you risk Hymn to Tourach. So take your pick.