Printable View
I was referring to switching Brainstorm on the top of the pile for a Top in the very same place. But, still, that example happens to be a Brainstorm pile as much as a Top pile:Quote:
Originally Posted by rsaunder
Top on the board, cast Doomsday for (Brainstorm,LED,LED,IGG,Tendrils)
Spin Top
Library is (Top,LED,LED,IGG,Tendrils), Hand is (Brainstorm,X,X)
The Top pile transforms itself into a Brainstorm pile with the same requirements and procedure.
Jaiminho is correct, the stack I've posted is not optimal. It should be:
Brainstorm, 2 cards in hands, 1U
-> Top, LED, LED, IGG, Tendrils
About the goldfish: I don't think it's a necessity to kill turn 3. In the majority of goldfishing scenarios which don't get me there on turn 3, I am able to cast a Duress or an Orim's Chant. And losing to Burn or Goyf Sligh because you had a suboptimal draw and they had a turn 3/turn 4 kill can happen to every deck, combo or non-combo.
Just because it "can happen to every deck" doesn't make it okay when we have the potential to win where other decks just go "whoops, the got god-draw. Next game!" What makes this deck better than solidarity was isn't the disruption. That deck could play through a counter like no other. This deck is just damn faster, and i think we might be getting away from that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brehn
emidln, you told me the other day that you had a fundamental turn of about 2.5 with the 8-disruption build. That's where we need to be, but can you give us some pointers so the rest of us might be able to duplicate your results? Also, how goes the primer? (and linkage?)
EDIT: RE: The pile above: Why is it superior? It doesn't give any extra storm and is just more vulnerable to pithing needle. Although I do like the ability to have it go both ways with the top on the table...
EDIT: 2: Wow, I need to RTFP.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rsaunder
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaiminho
Did somebody make extended testing of goldfishing?
What are the combo repartitions of a kill with chant backup and without chant BU?
Round 3 vs UnknownIII (2-0)
After some drama about my deck code (FU breathweapon for making me retest shusher thus destroying my security code :)), I get off to nice start losing the die roll.
Game 1 I keep this hand:
Brainstorm
Orim's Chant
Duress
Tendrils of Agony
Mystical Tutor
Polluted Delta
Polluted Delta
My opponent leads Mountain, Figure of Destiny. I draw Lotus Petal. Figuring that I'll need to goldfish fairly quickly, I need to maximize the usefulness of Brainstorm (particularly to get rid of Tendrils + Chant or chaff I draw). This means I'll want to Brainstorm + Fetch in the same turn. Consequently, I open with Delta -> Sea and a Duress. I see the following:
Mountain
Chain Lightning
Mogg Fantastic
Mogg Fantastic
Magma Jet
This isn't really a difficult decision. Chain Lightning does more damage to you, but Magma Jet has two functions for the RDW player. The first (and obvious one) is to filter away some bad cards, but more important in this matchup and this hand is that Jet combined with the two Goblins to produce 4 damage at instant-speed. If I leave Magma Jet, I'll be forced to either Chant my opponent before comboing (a hassle) or make sure I'm at 10 or more life before I combo. Given the state of my hand, I can't be certain of this.
On his turn 2 he attacks me for 2 down to 17 (pumping FoD) and playing a Fanatistic. I untap, play my fetch and pass. The question of whether or not to Brainstorm on main phase is kinda tricky. You don't really need to be Duressing again, but Top would be really tasty. I believe that since I already have a known fallback in Mystical Tutor that my play was justifiable, but the power of Ponder/Top perhaps should have forced me to mainphase the Brainstorm. My opponent plays a Fanatastic, Chain Lightnings me, attacks me, and passes. On his endstep I Brainstorm into Sensei's Top, Flooded Strand, and Doomsday. This makes it an easy call to eot Mystical for Cabal Rit (after the fetch, tutor, and petal I'll have Thresh), untap and win the game (as long as he didn't draw Fireblast). I go for this pile due to mana constraints (BB floating and a blue-producing land untapped, only 1 card in hand):
Meditate
Lotus Petal
Lion's Eye Diamond
Lion's Eye Diamond
Tendrils of Agony
I tap top to draw my Meditate and cast it to draw into SDT, Petal, LED, LED. I play Petal, LED, LED, SDT (with Petal). I break both LEDs for black and tap top to draw into Tendrils of Agony. I play Tendrils for lethal. He doesn't Fireblast me so I win.
I sideboard out Chants, Cruel Bargain, and Krosan Grip for Ancient Grudges, Echoing Truth, Rushing River, Pyroclasm, and Slaughter Pact.
Game 2 I open up this:
Brainstorm
Ponder
Sensei's Divining Top
Meditate
Echoing Truth
Island
Badlands
My opponent against opens with Mountain, Figure of Destiny. I draw into Dark Ritual and play Sensei's Top with Island. He attacks me down to 19 and drops a Tarmogoyf. On my turn I draw into Ponder. At this point there are a few lines of play I could follow, but since I don't really have a solid combo hand yet, I want to dig as much as possible. This means Ponder. I play Ponder seeing two fetches and a rushing river, then take and play the fetch. I get an Underground Sea and, given that my hand is still doesn't have a way to find Doomsday or a way to go off with Meditate, I play another Ponder. I take LED while stacking Tropical Island on top of Tendrils of Agony. I pass and my opponent decides to upkeep a Magma Jet (Probably looking for REB, Pithing Needle, or Fireblast). He attacks me down to 12 and passes without making a land drop. I draw my Tropical Island and Brainstorm drawing Tendrils of Agony, Dark Ritual, Lion's Eye Diamond. How good right? I put back Echoing Truth (this will make Tendrils lethal by itself post-Meditate) and Tendrils of Agony. Looking at my hand right now I have lethal without drawing any more cards because my opponent has cracked two fetches. (The key is to play out the accel into Meditate, then Echoing Truth my Sensei's Top and replay it for 8 storm while still holding Tendrils.). I play some Dark Rituals, LEDs, and Meditate breaking LEDs for black and blue. Floating BBBBBBUUU I draw into Tendrils of Agony (surprise), Echoing Truth, Duress, Ponder. My storm is already 6 so I go for Duress just to look. He was holding:
Incinerate
Krosan Grip
Fireblast
Mogg Fanatic
None of these cards matter much since I'm still at 12 life. I take Fireblast just in case I happen to run into a Doomsday (although it doesn't look like I'll need it at this point). I Ponder into a Brainstorm. I inflate the storm count with Brainstorm, Dark Ritual, Echoing Truth, spin top, draw an LED off Top, and play a Tendrils with around 12 storm.
i just finished building the deck, will start goldfishing soon. However, i am missing the 4 orim's chant
what would you suggest at it's place? 4 thoughtseize? Extirpate? Abeyance?
Robert
I would highly recommend testing with Orim's Chants and borrowing them on the day of any event until such a time where you can obtain them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Omega
But assuming it is impossible for me to get the Chants, what replacement to it? Even if suboptimal. Because the deck is no relying on Graveyard, can Fow/Thoughtseize do the job?
Robert
Play Thoughtseize and Duress. It's not optimal, but probably the best replacement for Chant. You can play Xantid Swarm out of the sideboard.
I would play abeyance. Thoughtseize is too life intensive for the deck, and abeyance gives you the same protection of Orim against burn (and even fanatic).
Force of Will provides somewhat of the same protection as chant, but it does so less reliably (you really don't want to ever pitch blue cards in this deck) and not at all as parts of the Doomsday combo progress (unless you're able to generate more mana to make SDT piles work with Dark Rits or you're able to only use straight Brainstorm/Ponder piles).Quote:
Originally Posted by Omega
Orim's Chant is functional because it takes away all threats while only being affected by a small range of threats (hard counters). This lets Orim's Chant trade with hard counters until such a time where you can make one resolve to generate card advantage. It's this card advantage taking away things like Stifle, Red Elemental Blast, and Extirpate that makes a Doomsday pile viable. Cards like Duress, Thoughtseize, Force of Will, Misdirection, and Pact of Negation don't provide the necessary card advantage to fill this slot. They simply don't allow the deck to prey upon the utter lack of hard countermagic in the format. If you can't get Chants, that really leaves you with three options:
(1) Ignore this slot. If you're not playing against decks with Stifle, Trickbind, Extirpate, and REB/Pyroblast, this might work. Most metagames have Dreadstill, Threshold, and Landstill in significant numbers though.
(2) Play Abeyance. Abeyance costing an additional mana and consequently being hit by Spell Snare make me not play it. Interestingly, Abeyance is an enabler for Doomsday, although you will generally want to be playing Abeyance before you cast other spells (with the exception of Duress and Extirpate).
(3) Play Xantid Swarm. Swarm is the best approximation of Chant, but is affected by the format's infinite creature hate. This is most apparent in game one situations.
You could *try* counterbalance. None of us besides Emidln have had any sort of luck with it, but it's all here. You play 4x Top, the list is a lot like thresh in that it has so much 1/2 cc spells it's not even funny, and UU isn't hard to get as all but one of my duals is a blue dual.
It doesn't work well with Doomsday, though, and that's a problem, and it NEVER stops a FoW.
I've never liked T-Seize as it does cause a lot of pain, which, in my mind, is unacceptable for this list. We almost always have to cast Doomsday, which is 1/2 your life, 8 fetches, and I use 4 sometimes a game. Then there's your Bargain, which also costs 1/2 your life. Sometimes you can't choose it over Meditate due to mana constraints. I rarely have to use it, but once in a while it's simply not possible.
I don't know if I'd even play the deck if I wasn't capable/willing to get chants. They are pretty much that vital. Even if you are completely sure that you will see nothing but pure agro all day, they act as Time Walks against that, which honestly can help keep your life up while you sculpt your hand.
Pce,
--DC
And can Ponder replace Brainstorm in those D-Day stacks?
EDIT:::
Very sorry about the double-post, didn't even remember that I was last to post...
EDIT #2: Extirpate could be considered for protection in place of Chant if paired with a set of Duresses.
Which dday stacks are you talking about?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
Nope. You need to replace 2 cards in hand with 2 card in the top 3. Brainstorm will act as a draw 3 that shits on the top of the library in those scenarios.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
for the 4 orim's slot, ive splitted
1 thoguthseize
2 abeyance (might go for a third)
not sure about the fourth
i was thinking of cutting
1 IGG
1 infernal tutor
to put in some LDV
Robert
Don't cut IGG entirely. You need it for the cheapest Doomsday pile, aside from giving you an alternate (but worse) storm enabler.Quote:
Originally Posted by Omega
I am actually trying something with
Grapeshot + Helm
and
Tendril of Agony
as kill condition and i am liking very much the grapheshot! In fact, i haven't won once with the tendril! I am probably playing the deck wrong though...
IE:
2 lands in play with a sensei, tap (1) cast dark ritual, led, duress opponent, tap land, doomsday. Win on turn three because Helm of awakening is on top, followed by Sensei's top. Grapeshot is third card. 4th and 5th cards can be a dark ritual and an igg in case i fail combo, somehow.
I managed in my testing to do a couple of kills like that. Would you say that it is a mistake to not go for the kill immediately (i dont think it is possible, with that hand though)? Yes, i am giving opponent 1 turn to find answer to or to kill me... But that combo looks good since you dont need to chain spells to make a lethal Tendril.
second example
turn 2 (2land) eot mystical tutor for a second dark ritual.
turn 3, 3 lands, double ritual (5 mana + 2 mana untap) duress (4) dday (1) put helm, sensei, sensei, grapeshot and a duress or lotus petal if you dont have the Red mana. (if opponent plays control, you can play slower and use duress before attempting combo). Take one burn and win on turn 4 (if i have a draw in hand) or win turn 5 otherwise. Again, this is not an ideal hand. I probably went for the combo too fast, without the appropriate cards. But the fact that Grape + Helm combo doesn't need 10 storm is quite good....
what are your thoughts?
Robert
Passing the turn is wrong.
Even knowing you are going to win next turn?
I havent been able to make a lethal Tendril yet... Can you put up an example? Fictional or not, it doesn't matter. Just for me to get an idea
Robert
Land, d. rit, LED, lotus petal, SDT, doomsday, anything in hand.
Play land, d. rit.
Play and sac petal for X.
Use BBB to cast DDay for (meditate, l.petal, d. rit, d. rit, tendrils)
Use the B from the petal to cast SDT
Play LED
Tap SDT and on the stack pop LED for UUU discarding your last card.
Cast meditate
cast petal, d. rit, d. rit for BBBBB floating
cast SDT with B
Draw off top and draw tendrils with BBBB floating
tendrils for 20, Win.
Read the doomsday section in my (still not finished because I'm a lazy bum) primer. I believe there is a copy on mtgsal. Look for "Previous Level Doomsday".Quote:
Originally Posted by Omega
Wouldn't it be better to cast Duress first to both gather information, and make sure that your Rituals aren't at risk of being countered.Quote:
Originally Posted by Omega
uhmm yes, you are absolutly right!
Robert
If your opponent counters your rits, then you know you've won the game because your opponent doesnt know how to play against combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Omega
Regardless, you still play Duress before your rituals, as you never want to assume you are playing against retards. Even if it's true.
If I have the mana available before using a rit, then yeah, i will. But seriously, I want my opponents to waste their counters on my rits.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
I suppose it depends on what you are playing against as well. IDK, I don't really go off unprotected unless I'm playing against non-blue decks, and I'll only try if I have to.
In other news, I played a small test session today and beat Ichorid 2-0. Again. Beat UGr Thresh 2-0, although he made a play error. I probably shouldn't have won. Oh well, play mistakes ftw!
Game 1: Chanted turn 1 and turn 2 going off turn 4 against Ichorid for 10x storm-counted Tendrils for a kill of 22. He was a little ticked.
Game 2: Can't remember a lot about this other than Extirpating his Therapies as he was about to rape my hand hardcore. I had an opening hand of triple-LED and he therapy'ed naming chant. He saw my triple LED, and passed the turn. I Brainstorm away 2 of my LEDs and he doesn't even realize it. Waddadouche. Anyway, I pass the turn, he drops a PImp and tosses his hand and then flashes back Therapy on LED. I reveal a grip with a single one and he goes "ah. Brainstorm." Duh. Anyway, drew into my other LED, Pondered into a Top and went for the infinite combo w/ Top and Helm into Brain Freeze because...I like irony.
I also did this because he was taunting me with the fact that if I didn't win that turn he was going to DR his Ancestor's Chosen. I told him that if he got another turn he could gain infinite life and I'd still whip his ass. He laughed at me, so I went off without giving him the chance to gain the life and milled his cocky ass into oblivion. And I was impressed. After the game, he was STILL cocky. Can you believe that? Jesus.
I want Extirpate MD'ed. It serves my meta and I'm going to find room somehow.
I tested Thresh also, and it did worse. Just sayin'...UGr Thresh.
Pce,
--DC
Edit:
Here's my current list:
1x Tendrils
1x IGG
4x D-Day
1x 'Pate
1x K. Grip
4x Duress
4x Chant
1x Bargain
1x Meditate
4x Ponder
4x Brainstorm
4x SDT
4x M. Tutor
1x Petal
1x C. Rit
4x LED
4x D. Rit
1x Swamp
2x Island
1x Scrub
1x Trop
1x Volcanic
1x Tundra
1x USea
4x Stand
4x Delta
Sideboard is being worked on with teh superxsecret TecH...will post after testing and what-not. Members of Storm Boards can go there for a heads up on what is under discussion. Teh rest of you can either wait or sign up!
Pce, (again)
--DC
So everyone, tell me your thoughts on the new draw spell that has gotten all the TES players all giddy: Ad Nauseum. I don't think it has much of a role here, as we're more tutor based and contract fulfills the role of "obscenely powerful draw with DDay" for less mana. Perhaps this is the card I can play as a 1-of over IT/IGG MB to get a little speed where we need it.
Thoughts? Questions?
It's not even good as a 1-of. It doesn't speed up the deck, because with the current manabase you can't cast it before turn 3 and you can't win the same turn you cast it. And winning on turn 4 is not exactly fast.
So obviously you can't really use it as a storm engine. And as a setup card, it costs 3BB. What does Doomsday usually cost?
- UBBB with 2 cards + Brainstorm + LED
- 1UBBB with 2 cards + Top or Brainstorm
- 2UBBB with Top or Meditate
- 2UUBBB with Ponder
Usually, when you're able to cast Ad Nauseam, you should be also able to cast Doomsday. So you'd wish that this Ad Nauseam in your hand was Doomsday. And you end up replacing it with Doomsday.
I can only see one application: as an end-of-turn hand refill spell against slow discard decks, out of the sideboard. Disadvantage: it costs 5, which is not too good against discard decks with mana denial, e. g. Eva Green or Pox. All in all, it's too narrow.
If you think that this card is a not so good for FT, you never test it.
Why do you continue to play a deck strictly inferior? I'm trying a verson more oriented to TES with Burning Wish, Rite of Flame and in SB the classic bomb of TES: Diminishing Returns, IGG,...
But I've also changed FT because I like more the game style of this deck. This is the result:
4x polluted delta
2x flooded strand
1x bloodstained mire
2x island
2x swamp
1x underground sea
4x dark ritual
4x cabal ritual
4x lotus petal
4x LED
4x chrome mox
4x brainstorm
3x ponder
4x infernal tutor
4x mystical tutor
4x ad nauseum
4x duress
2x thoughtseize
1x ToA
1x wipe away
1x IGG
just try!
Usually if you play Ad nauseum also with 0 mana in pool you win. I understand that I'm OT and this deck is very different from original FT, but try it: consistent, fast, more simple to play: no grave hate, no denial hate and a costant win on turn 2-3. In sb all solution to the classic hate like counterbalance, extirpate, mage,...with perhaps the addon of a third color.
I like more the elegance of old FT game style, but this deck is stronger.
I presume they will bann this card early.
I refuse to play any combo list that doesn't include at least 4x Chant. I'm more comfortable with Chants and then discard as well. This has a disappointing 2x Thoughtseize (wtf? Change it to Duress, the lifeloss is incredibly relevant, and if it wins turn 2-3, I guarantee that you will NOT need to make them discard a creature--I don't understand how people refuse to acknowledge this). I need to see either 4 Duress or 4x Chant, but I'd be happiest seeing both. Even a 4/2 split (I'd be happiest to see a 4/3 split, respectively, though). Unprotected can just screw you. You AdN, lose 15 life, and then they Chant. Or Lightning Bolt and Fireblast you. Or Shrapnel Blast you. Or WHATEVER. It sux, and I refuse. I play against DS a lot, Ichorid a lot, and Spring Tide a lot. To reflect a bit on these, I see Chalice @ 1/0 quite often, get hit with a 6-card discard suite (4x Therapy/2x Unmask) from the damn Ichorid build, and Spring Tide goes off turn 3 AND runs FoW. Right...No protection on a game-by-game consistancy means I'll lose.
Pce,
--DC
Is the read so difficult?
thanks for your careful reading. :confused:Quote:
...
4x duress
...
Ok, my bad. Jeez.
Aside from that, no Chant. Thanks for addressing the issues at hand. :rolleyes:
Chant >>>>>>>>>>>>> 4 Duress 2 Thoughtseize.
And C. Mox is serious Card Disadvantage.
Pce,
--DC
Not really. Have you ever noted Vintage combo decks don't play Chant. Ever wondered why? Ill-Gotten Gains forces Legacy combo decks to Chant, but the difference is quite small. Where Chant can stop multiple cards and can force opponents to waste resources to counter it. Discard can hit other cards except counters, like Chalice or Trinisphere.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
Yeah it's a really bad card, That's the reason it's played in TES, SI, Belcher and Dragon Stompy, all bad decks because they change cardadvantage in very fast wins, nobody would do that in there right mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
With a carddraw mechanism like Ad Nauseum you have cards enough to pitch. Please test a list before you say it is bad, or at least read it well. That said the list plays quite well, but I would play more lands. I don't know wich slots to change though. You could go -1 Chrome Mox, -1 Ponder +2 Lands.
BB
Thanks Benie Bederios, you understand all.
Yeah, sometimes I want more lands, I think to increase the number of them, perhaps I cut 1x Chrome because often it is useful only after I play AD Nauseum (AN from now for abbreviation).
My last changes:
-1 swamp +1 tropical island for K.Grip in SB.
-1 ad nauseum +1 ponder
I cut swamp instead of island because I want to be very solid against moon effect and I cut AN only because the only its problem is reveal another one during the process. We have 8 tutor + 3 AN + 8 manipulation to search it. I presume is enough.
I haven't tested the list yet, but I'm curious: is this better than DDFT? And why?
You've cut protection and setup to build a manabase that supports Ad Nauseam. With the cutting of setup (Top) you've reduced your chances to finding solutions postboard. Your storm engine costs 5 mana as opposed to the 5-7 mana of Doomsday, not too much of an improvement. The only real benefit that you've mentioned is that you're killing turn 2-3 as opposed to DDFT's turn 3-4. But I wouldn't give up protection and consistency just for that.
Have you tested against Threshold and Eva Green? I can see the list struggling in both matchups.
Edit: also, how does this list play against Landstill? An advantage of DDFT was always that it could wait until it was at 4-5 life, then go off. That's not possible anymore with AN, how does this change the matchup?
And in general: how much life do you need to guarantee (~85%) a win after a resolved AN with empty pool?
"TES, SI, Belcher and Dragon Stompy, all bad decks"
yea, all bad decks.
SI, Belcher never really were a problem. Minimum of hate, in other words a decent legacy makes you win against them. Moreover, have you ever notice how much they mulligan in a tournament? Sure they beat unprepared deck, but i never saw them do anything, except goldfishing alone and asking opponent once in a while if they are going to counter them
TES : More skill intense, good combo overall, that can win through counters.
Dragon stompy : Explosive or completly unlucky. I wouldnt regard this deck as "very good", but simply as a good deck
You have to be able to turn the C. Mox into speed advantage, or else it is useless. Your deck runs Ad Nauseum. The chrome mox can be useful to help you get the mana, so it is a good choice to include them
Robert
If the card does become popular, Chant will become increasingly relevant. I've said this time and again, but Chant and Duress are different types of protection. Chant provides protection against any kind of instant-speed hate and is only affected by hard counters. Duress (Thoughtseize making you lose 2 life is terrible.) might take a Force of Will letting AdN resolve, but if an opponent is still holding stifle/lightning bolt/etc you've essentially lost the game. If AdN stays legal and sees play (which is a big if because, in my testing, the card just isn't good against decks that play both countermagic and threats (the deck we know as Threshold) or disruption and threats (the decks we know as Dragon Stompy (chalice of the void), Suicide Black (heavy discard), Eva Green (heavy discard), Survival (heavy discard, gaddock teeg, new white creature), and Aggro Loam (chalice of the void)) you'll find an upsurge in UGR Thrash-type decks. That doesn't actually leave a whole lot of matchups where it's good. I've yet to see a solid plan for attacking UWb or UWbg Landstill (especially postboard).