[Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

IF he attempts a turn 3-4 combo (with 3-4 lands)
just counter his high tide. You can always take the risk of letting him start his combo before countering him, but this is a bad idea, especially if he has a very good hand.

If he attempts a combo with 5,6 + lands, you have to counter key spells such as meditate and sometimes REset/turnabout. There is no point in countering High tide wen he has so many lands. You just have to see how many cards he has in hand, how many mana is floating.
Small cantrip, such as brainstorm, impulse and other should never be countered. Unless if he has 0 card in hand.

Stifle : Stifle every fetchlands you can to slow him down or to shut him off (especially if he has a bad hand). Usually, when he comboes out, there are no way you can stop him with a single stifle. Do not hesitate to play agressive. You have to put solidarity on clock, or else he will just wait and have the perfect hand and perfect lands to beat you

Has anyone tried out Negate in Dreadstill? One of the things that has always bothered me is that unless you have Counterbalance down, you have to Force of Will cards like Snuff Out and Swords to Plowshares, which really hurts when you have to 2 for 1 yourself just to get Dreadnought into play. I was thinking I would play it either in the Spell Snare/Krosan Grip slot or (more likely) put it in the sideboard REB slot. I think this would be especially good in builds with Spell Snare so that against Landstill and ITF you have Spell Snare as a 1 casting cost answer to Counterbalance, Counterspell or possibly Standstill and Negate to answer removal. I think it would also be great to have 3 extra answers in the board to Orim's Chant for the combo match.

I would than probably cut red from the deck for a more solid mana base which would in theory compensate a bit for the lack of Firespout against Aggro.

So I am going to test this on MWS and get back to y'all.

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Originally Posted by jazzykat

Also, this is still a DTW? I suppose it is irrelevant but why is that not enough people have 3/4 'noughts?

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The main reason that I haven't REALLY started to test this puppy out is because the current manabases only have 14 sources of blue and about 8 sources of the second color. My initial testing revealed that the manabase wasn't holding up enough, and resolving early Counterbalances was a real pain. Is going up to 22 lands going to work very well?

Currently I only have one Nought, but I shouldn't have too many problems acquiring a few more. I think I'm going to go the white route to start and then just try to learn my way from there by reading through the posts here and just testing online during the weekends. Is 2 Tops the standard number for that color?

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Originally Posted by TheRock

The main reason that I haven't REALLY started to test this puppy out is because the current manabases only have 14 sources of blue and about 8 sources of the second color. My initial testing revealed that the manabase wasn't holding up enough, and resolving early Counterbalances was a real pain. Is going up to 22 lands going to work very well?

Currently I only have one Nought, but I shouldn't have too many problems acquiring a few more. I think I'm going to go the white route to start and then just try to learn my way from there by reading through the posts here and just testing online during the weekends. Is 2 Tops the standard number for that color?

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Hmm, I think that early is the easiest time to resolve Counterbalance because you can fight it through with Daze (You are running 3-4, right?). Also, I play 3 colors with 21 lands and only have to mull to 6 occasionally in real life, but 22 lands should be fine if this isn't working out for you.

2 Tops is standard for any list with Trinket Mage, which is pretty standard.

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Originally Posted by bocci

Has anyone tried out Negate in Dreadstill?

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No I haven't tried it but, wouldn't Mana Leak or even Rune Snag be better, so you can hit creatures as well?

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Originally Posted by Xero_2285

No I haven't tried it but, wouldn't Mana Leak or even Rune Snag be better, so you can hit creatures as well?

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Creatures aren't really a problem because none of them are bigger than Dreadnought. Even better than countering their creatures, just countering the spells that try to remove Dreadnought is right in line with decks game plan of playing Dreadnought. I suppose Dark Confidant and to a much lesser extent Argothian Echantress are exceptions to this idea, but that is why I run Spell Snare. Honestly, this is the most plausible way to deal with Tombstalker that I have thought of so far, other than dedicating SB slots to Wallop, which seems ridiculous.

Also, if there is one area of this deck that I feel needs attention, its in the late game, particularly when you have played an early Standstill and have been sitting under it for awhile. If you can't get Counterbalance down, its going to be nigh impossible to get Dreadnought to stick, since you pretty much have to Force of Will everything.

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Originally Posted by bocci

Creatures aren't really a problem because none of them are bigger than Dreadnought. Even better than countering their creatures, just countering the spells that try to remove Dreadnought is right in line with decks game plan of playing Dreadnought.

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True but, I guess what I should have said was, aren't you hindering yourself limiting what you can counter with a noncreature counterspell? Sure you want to hit their targeting threats which Mana Leak and Rune Snag do while at the same time leaving it to where you can counter creatures as well for the same CMC as negate. I agree with what your saying but I don't think Negate is the best option for what your trying to do.

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Creatures aren't really a problem because none of them are bigger than Dreadnought. Even better than countering their creatures, just countering the spells that try to remove Dreadnought is right in line with decks game plan of playing Dreadnought.

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This is not always true. While the dreadnought is huge, and often wins creature wars on it's own, it does not guarantee wins all by itself. There have been multiple times in tournament play where I was staring down an aggro horde, and due to my already damaged lifetotal, the dreadnought alone wasn't going to win it. In these cases, or in cases where the dreadnought will barely squeak out the damage race win, it's important to be able to counter creatures.

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Also, if there is one area of this deck that I feel needs attention, its in the late game, particularly when you have played an early Standstill and have been sitting under it for awhile. If you can't get Counterbalance down, its going to be nigh impossible to get Dreadnought to stick, since you pretty much have to Force of Will everything.

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I have found the opposite. After drawing a boatload of cards off of multiple standstill turns and the standstill itself, Resolving Dreadnought and protecting it for one turn really hasn't been that bad for me. The entire dreadnought combo costs a measly 2 mana, and with the leftovers I've been able to hardcast Forces and so on to keep the 'Nought on the table. Also, in these cases it often comes up that I'm able to resolve nought and a tarmo, or a pair of tarmos, and they can only deal with one.

This isn't to say that I like going lategame against Landstill&crew, but I don't mind hitting the later turns against aggro at all.


I so want to test wallop right now. No joke.

If you have 2 trinket mages in main ad 4 Tormods Crypt in the side board , How many tormods crypts will you sideboard againts aggro loam ?

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Originally Posted by The_Red_Panda

This isn't to say that I like going lategame against Landstill&crew, but I don't mind hitting the later turns against aggro at all.

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This is pretty much my point. I think that the late game (actually pretty much the whole game) against Aggro is great, its pretty easy to keep a Naught or a Goyf down without to much problem and more counters for them aren't needed. The problem I have is more against WUG Thresh or Team America and slow control decks where they can play Swords or Snuff Out and than match your Force of Will with one of there own and possibly a Counterspell or preempt your counter with Thoughtseize.

@Kiwi: 2.

Edit- I feel like I should point out that if I put Negate in the SB, it would replace Daze in Games 2-3 or Spell Snare in match ups where it does little (Stompy/Stax). If I were to MD it, it would go in the same slot many have devoted to Krosan Grip.

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Originally Posted by kiwi

If you have 2 trinket mages in main ad 4 Tormods Crypt in the side board , How many tormods crypts will you sideboard againts aggro loam ?

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Only board in two, it's not always going to be TOO helpful but it should hurt them a bit (Goyf and Crusher don't care about it sadly).

@Negate: It's okay but mainly moreso against Landstill and ITF would it be REALLy good. It's possible to be better then Red Blast in those matchups for sure...as well as any MUC-based decks. I will replace REBs with Negates in the board and see how it fairs for me =).

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It's possible to be better then Red Blast in those matchups for sure...as well as any MUC-based decks. I will replace REBs with Negates in the board and see how it fairs for me =).

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Counterbalance?

It's hard to destroy a Counterbalance with a 1cc spell...

@Negate: I find it could actually be better than REB most of the time... Mmh, gotta try it.

EDIT: The only MU REB is better than Negate would probably be CounterSlivers and Epic Painter. The MU Negate is better than REB: Landstill, ITF and ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh (do I really side REB against ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh?).

EDIT#2: Pretty sure I like and will adopt it in the REB spot.

EDIT#3: I was testing it against myself and just kept my REB as "false Negate" and was thinking its cc was 1... but just realized it was 2cc so I doubt again... lol

PM

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Originally Posted by bocci

This is pretty much my point. I think that the late game (actually pretty much the whole game) against Aggro is great, its pretty easy to keep a Naught or a Goyf down without to much problem and more counters for them aren't needed. The problem I have is more against WUG Thresh or Team America and slow control decks where they can play Swords or Snuff Out and than match your Force of Will with one of there own and possibly a Counterspell or preempt your counter with Thoughtseize.

@Kiwi: 2.

Edit- I feel like I should point out that if I put Negate in the SB, it would replace Daze in Games 2-3 or Spell Snare in match ups where it does little (Stompy/Stax). If I were to MD it, it would go in the same slot many have devoted to Krosan Grip.

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OK, but I really don't feel like you have justified as of to why Negate is better than Mana Leak or Rune Snag. Both have the same CMC but Leak and Snag can counter both Creature AND Non-Creature spells. All 3 being the same CMC you have more options with Leak and Snag than you do with Negate. I don't see anyone SB'ing Tormod's Crypt for a Rune Snag and having 3 mana open to shit towards Mana Leak is very hard for some decks and if they do they probably can't play anything else that turn (which is alright for me), because if the payed the 3 they sure as hell can't pay 1 for Daze. Leak or Snag gives you more options rather than just non-creature spells for same CMC. I'm seriously wondering, how is Negate better than Mana Leak or Rune Snag? :confused:

I just placed 2nd out of 7 under ANT and above MonoRedBurn with the following list.

Creatures: (10)
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Trinket Mage

Spells: (30)
4x Brainstorm
4x Daze
4x Force of Will
3x Spell Snare
4x Stifle
2x Trickbind
3x Counterbalance
4x Standstill
2x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Engineered Explosives

Lands: (20)
4x Mishra's Factory
5x Island
4x Polluted Delta
3x Flooded Strand
2x Wasteland
1x Tropical Island
1x Volcanic Island

SB: (15)
3x Blue Elemental Blast
3x Pyroblast
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Pyroclasm
2x Krosan Grip
1x Pithing Needle
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Chill


Round 1: Solidarity, Game 1: 2nd turn Nought/Stifle, 3rd turn Nought/Trickbind, he scooped.
Game 2: Was a little longer. I countered some early key spells that didn't allow him to start searching and he fell to a Nought and Goyf.

Round 2: Chord of Calling Deck, Game 1: He started with little beaters and I resolved Counter/Top 2nd turn, he was done after that. Drew into Nought/Stifle and he scooped.
Game 2: Was even shorter, he mulled to 5 and I resolved Nought/Stifle 2nd turn, he scooped.

Round 3: ANT, Game 1: 2nd turn Nought/Stifle, he scooped before my 4th turn.
Game 2: I resolved Goyf on 2nd and he went off his 3rd turn I believe.
Game 3: Again I resolved Goyf 2nd turn (wich I think was my downfall against this deck) and was unable to counter anything after triple duress and he went off on 4th.

So over all 5-2 or 2-1. Not bad for what I was playing against. I really liked the extra Delta in came in handy more than the 3rd Wasteland and 20 lands worked out great. Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by Xero_2285

So over all 5-2 or 2-1. Not bad for what I was playing against. I really liked the extra Delta in came in handy more than the 3rd Wasteland and 20 lands worked out great. Thoughts?

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I think you should play more with the deck before you make anymore changes. Keep it intact, run with it a few more tournaments and see how you feel then. I wouldn't draw too many conclusions from a small event with 7 people.

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Originally Posted by Xero_2285

Round 3: ANT, Game 1: 2nd turn Nought/Stifle, he scooped before my 4th turn.
Game 2: I resolved Goyf on 2nd and he went off his 3rd turn I believe.
Game 3: Again I resolved Goyf 2nd turn (wich I think was my downfall against this deck) and was unable to counter anything after triple duress and he went off on 4th.

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Go to see you finally got over to the Source Xero, anyways, basically you hit the nail on the head with your flaw here, just establish control against Storm, wincon is the last thing you care about since once you establish the control game Storm has a really really hard time doing anything, you will usually be able to get there with a single Factory.

Also, any particular reason why you run Pyroclasm over Firespout when you have Green and Red?

My initial reaction is how do you get away with 1 green source and 4 goyfs main? I realize there are a million more things to worry about but the most frustrating part of playing UGr was having a goyf and a nought sit in my hand and not be able to cast either. This deck is amazing because of the manabase stability, Hell you can even run magus or blood moon if you want. IMO unless you are facing something that you can't beat then you should be playing the Ur list. If you are consistently having trouble against decks you regularly face and have concluded that you are playing the deck correctly (i.e. no mistakes, assuming correct role beatdown/control etc.) then I would go for more/different splashes. HOWEVER, I would select the splash that most increases your chance of winning vs. that certain deck instead of immediately putting goyfs MD and grips in the board. So if I wanted to hose AdNT I would be playing Urw with meddling magi and possibly chants.

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Originally Posted by URABAHN

I think you should play more with the deck before you make anymore changes. Keep it intact, run with it a few more tournaments and see how you feel then. I wouldn't draw too many conclusions from a small event with 7 people.

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Well I have been consistently Top 4ing in the last month or so now, I just haven't been sharing my rankings with others until I started to get a hang of the deck more. 4 weeks ago took 1st of 6, 3 weeks ago took 3rd of 21 I believe, 2 weeks ago took 4th of 7 with a Ur list, are just a few I can remember. I'm going to keep the deck just like it is for a while, I really like how it's starting to work out for me.

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Originally Posted by J.V.

Go to see you finally got over to the Source Xero, anyways, basically you hit the nail on the head with your flaw here, just establish control against Storm, wincon is the last thing you care about since once you establish the control game Storm has a really really hard time doing anything, you will usually be able to get there with a single Factory.

Also, any particular reason why you run Pyroclasm over Firespout when you have Green and Red?

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Thanks, good to be here. Is that you Valentine? This site seems to know a little more than most other sites. Damn Goyf, the turn I dropped the Goyf I had the option of dropping Top instead and drawing a FOW with it instead, would have been the better play but I really wanted to start beating his face.

Well the main reason is because I hate investing into standard so I don't have any but also the CMC is 2 which is just easier to play. I probably should pick up 2-3 of them though.

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Originally Posted by jazzykat

My initial reaction is how do you get away with 1 green source and 4 goyfs main? I realize there are a million more things to worry about but the most frustrating part of playing UGr was having a goyf and a nought sit in my hand and not be able to cast either. This deck is amazing because of the manabase stability, Hell you can even run magus or blood moon if you want. IMO unless you are facing something that you can't beat then you should be playing the Ur list. If you are consistently having trouble against decks you regularly face and have concluded that you are playing the deck correctly (i.e. no mistakes, assuming correct role beatdown/control etc.) then I would go for more/different splashes. HOWEVER, I would select the splash that most increases your chance of winning vs. that certain deck instead of immediately putting goyfs MD and grips in the board. So if I wanted to hose AdNT I would be playing Urw with meddling magi and possibly chants.

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Fetch for the Tropical Island 2nd turn. The reason I'm only running 1 green and 1 red source is because I only have 1 of each (I'd be more than happy to trade someone for 1 of each). Which is also the reason I have 1x Crucible in the SB. If I come across Wasteland's and what not I'll have crucible to back me up until I can get my other duels. Didn't really like the Ur list I tried it out, it was consistent, land base was great, I just don't think it was for me. It may not look like it but a lot more thought was put into this build than just adding Goyf's and Grip in the SB. The only decks I've really lost against are Belcher 1-2, Countersliver 1-2, and with the Ur list Solidarity 1-2. So I'm not really having issues losing, I just think I made some wrong decisions against those decks (should have Stifled fetches but chose not to so I can drop Nought on 2nd, things like that).

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Originally Posted by Xero_2285

The only decks I've really lost against are Belcher 1-2, Countersliver 1-2, and with the Ur list Solidarity 1-2.

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Yep that's another weakness all the UGR Dreadstill players have to accept when playing Goyf...your combo MU weakens a bit since he's so dead against them almost always. Belcher should never beat you, with 6x Stifle effects, FoW, Dazes, CB/Top and needle from the board...not to mention BEBs/EEs. Countersliver can be tough you really have to know what to counter(Vial.) Solidarity is a horrendously lopsided matchup you should test it some more and see. The UR build I faced against Solid I think i'm some rediculous number like 25-0 on the deck in best 2/3s. But again, I don't have too much experience testing the Goyf build so I can't really say how much harder it is. Oh also a good key to beating Solid, let High Tide resolve don't bother wasting all your resources to counter it...just counter their untappers with Snares/Daze/Fow.

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Originally Posted by Roodmistah

Yep that's another weakness all the UGR Dreadstill players have to accept when playing Goyf...your combo MU weakens a bit since he's so dead against them almost always. Belcher should never beat you, with 6x Stifle effects, FoW, Dazes, CB/Top and needle from the board...not to mention BEBs/EEs. Countersliver can be tough you really have to know what to counter(Vial.) Solidarity is a horrendously lopsided matchup you should test it some more and see. The UR build I faced against Solid I think i'm some rediculous number like 25-0 on the deck in best 2/3s. But again, I don't have too much experience testing the Goyf build so I can't really say how much harder it is. Oh also a good key to beating Solid, let High Tide resolve don't bother wasting all your resources to counter it...just counter their untappers with Snares/Daze/Fow.

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It's funny you say that about Solid, that's exactly what I did with the UGr list and stomped him 2-0. I was thinking, should I take it down to 3x Goyf MB and up my Wasteland 1? Not only because of these MU's but I think 4 might be too many, and with the added Delta I have no problems getting color screwed anymore so could I afford to have the extra Wasteland? I just hate seeing Factory and Wasteland in my opening hand with no U sources.

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Originally Posted by Xero_2285

It's funny you say that about Solid, that's exactly what I did with the UGr list and stomped him 2-0. I was thinking, should I take it down to 3x Goyf MB and up my Wasteland 1? Not only because of these MU's but I think 4 might be too many, and with the added Delta I have no problems getting color screwed anymore so could I afford to have the extra Wasteland? I just hate seeing Factory and Wasteland in my opening hand with no U sources.

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-1 Goyf
+1 Wasteland seems to be your best option, yes.

Also, add one more Needle to your sideboard and one more Crypt/Relic.

I split top 4 at a 22 player tourny with the Uwr variant.

(22 players, Supergames in Alpharetta, GA)

It's the standard Ur list -3 Spell Snare, -1 Wasteland (Non basics aren't too heavy in my meta)

+3 Stp, +1 O. Ring

s/b
3 REB
3 Meddling Mage
3 Pyroclasm
2 Echoing Truth
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt (Dredge looked like a no show)
1 Pithing Needle
1 Oblivion Ring

Round 1: David Meyer - Ugrb Trinket Control
Great guy, and I absolutely loved his deck. Trinkets, Capsule, shackels, EE, A. Ruins,
Goyfs, Counters.

G1: An early CB +Top, followed by Factory + Dreadnought win this one for me.

G2: Long Match. My early CB meets REB. Dreadnought gets EE'd. He gets Academy ruins + Explosives. I land a Meddling Mage on EE, then his Trinket Mage finds Executioner's Capsule....yikes. He lands two Tarmogoys.Dreadnought 2 comes out (I have a stifle in hand for the capsule), but out comes Sower of Temptation.... G3..

G3: I keep a hand of Factory x2, Stifle, Dreadnought, Standstill, Daze, FOW. Drop a Factory, pass. e plays island, top, go. I rip Volcanic Island like a champ. Nought + Stifle goes unanswered.

Round 2: Andy Probasco (Brassman on TMD) - Next Level Blue ?
Andy usually plays his painter list, but I saw no painters/grindstones. Goyfs, CB/Top, Shackles, Counters, & Cantrips. Andy also wins the best altered art/deck award. He does his own extended art on CB and Trinket Mage, and they are quite sexy.

G1: Waste + Stifle keep him out of the game, while Factory goes for the throat. His ponders find nothing relevant.

G2: Duress takes my Brainstorm. He Spell Snares my Standstill. I drop a nought, with counter backup. Win.

Round 3: Thor - Goyf Sligh
It's always fun to play against Thor. I just like his RAWR, I win mentality.

G1: Turn 1 Lavamancer, Turn 2 Lavamancer, and Keldon Marauders + Goyf came out before Dreadnough ruins his day.

G2: Turn 1 FoD, Turn 2 FoD. I Pyroclasm (He didn't see red game 1). That buys enough time to drop a nought.

Round 4: Robbie - Rw Goblins
Great player. He always makes smart, concise plays.

G1: I Force his T1 Lackey. Play Island. He plays a second Lackey. Boo. I can't put on enough pressure, but I did counter a SGC by flipping a Force to Counterbalance.


G2: Play Island. He plays a Lackey, I play Factory. He plays port. I play second Factory. I drop a nought and win.

G3: I end up gaining 24 life from 2 Stp'd Dreadnoughts... Then get attacked for 79.
(Double Pile driver, SGC, 3 tokens, 2 Lackey, Warchief, Pyromancer) Legendary.

3-1

Top 8

Jt - Belcher

G1: Stifle his Empty the Warrens. Stifle a Dreadnought, EE his tokens for kicks.

G2: Echoing Truth his Goblins. Needle on BelchMeddling Mage on Burning Wish, Pithing er.
Yeah, this isn't a good match for combo, and for some reason I always draw 4 stifles when up against combo.


Top 4 Split.

O. Ring wasn't cast one.


I'll be trying Divert in the SB sometime in the future. In theory, it is really strong, being good against counters/Burn/Hymn/Thoughtseize/Swords. It's a little easier to cast than REB and makes Daze marginally better in the mid game.

I'm also considering Dismantling Blow for the side. It dodges Counterbalance, and occaisionally draws cards. But, I'm not convinced it would be better than O. Ring.

Mega props to Zack Wilson for trading me Mana Drains.

I finished 3-3 (last round conceded to a friend) in a 46-man tournament. I'm very disappointed as I began with a good 3-0 start and then start loosing like a retard, sometimes due to me keeping hands I shouldn't have, sometimes due to my lack of sideboarding skill. It was my first time with the deck in a real tournament.

I beat UGw Threshold (2-0), Faerie Stompy (2-1) and ANT (1-0), and the proceeded to loose 2-0 againt UGr Moon Threshold (0-2, keeping hands I should't have really helped), Not-Quite Survival (0-2, first turn Confidant followed by shit and combined with low threat hands from my part on both games) and then I tried to get the only top 8 slot for 12 point players that was available as the other seven top 8 players were already decided. I played a looong game against UGW Threshold and after serious stalling I finally loose. I give the second game to the guy hoping that one of us could really get into the top8. (And he did)

I'm aware of my lack of skill with the deck as I hadn't tested the Threshold matchup as much as I should (yes, you can kill me). Fearing ANT the meta turned aggrocontrol-heavy but there were also a huge portion of aggro decks (Goyf Sligh, Zoo, Burn), even though I didn't faced any.

I'm considering trying another splashes... and of course I need to do some more testing. Today I have experienced the best and the worst that Dreadstill can offer.

:smile:

FWIW: I went 5-0 in another local tournament with the UR version against non-tier decks. This deck may just be the best deck in the format right now. The mana base is sooooooooooooooooooo consistent it tends to remove just about any chance of mana screw and then with fetches it quickly boils down to threats.

Have anyone tried Threads of Disloyalty? That would be good against other dreadnoughts, tarmogoyfs and confidant at least. Any thoughts?

What would you remove for it? To me, it seems like the list is too tight to include it. It would also weaken Counterbalance seeing the Trinket Mage is already in this deck.

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Originally Posted by Mayk0l

What would you remove for it? To me, it seems like the list is too tight to include it. It would also weaken Counterbalance seeing the Trinket Mage is already in this deck.

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Hmm, it depends what colors you play, but i think something like this:

3x Blue Elemental Blast
3x Red Elemental Blast
3x Threads of Disloyalty
2x Tormod's crypt
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Pithing Needle
2x Echoing Truth

The Thresh matchup is where you would most want Threads I would think, and that is one of the matchups that will board in Grip, so you would want more 3 drops in the deck to have a better chance at stoping Grip. Against Survival it also stops Harmonic Sliver.

Threads is also good against Thresh BECAUSE it costs 3 and gets around their Counterbalance. Seems decent to me. Especially in Ur because you don't have your own goyfs.

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Originally Posted by bigbear102

The Thresh matchup is where you would most want Threads I would think, and that is one of the matchups that will board in Grip, so you would want more 3 drops in the deck to have a better chance at stoping Grip. Against Survival it also stops Harmonic Sliver.

Threads is also good against Thresh BECAUSE it costs 3 and gets around their Counterbalance. Seems decent to me. Especially in Ur because you don't have your own goyfs.

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Yep. I do play ur-version so i'm not able to play grips :) Just thinking, do we need Krosan Grip anyways? Ok, it's split second so it's hard to counter except counterbalance and that won't always even hit. Other what can cause problem we can survive by blasts (Back To Basics, Blood Moon, Counterbalance). Those won't even always be such of big problem cause number of basics we run. Needles and Chalices we get rid of by EE. Angelstax have some nasty artifacts what we want get rid of soon as possible but there we have echoing truth and counters. These thoughts isn't anything new maybe, but just want some reasons why to play Krosan Grip over ur-version.

Erm maybe fucking HUMILITY?!?!
Or a DREADNOUGHT!
Beside that Counterbalance can be a huge problem, and it feels more comfortable to have another beater and not lose to a extirpated nought or something.

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Originally Posted by bigbear102

The Thresh matchup is where you would most want Threads I would think, and that is one of the matchups that will board in Grip, so you would want more 3 drops in the deck to have a better chance at stoping Grip. Against Survival it also stops Harmonic Sliver.

Threads is also good against Thresh BECAUSE it costs 3 and gets around their Counterbalance. Seems decent to me. Especially in Ur because you don't have your own goyfs.

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Against Threshold I wouldn't imagine boarding in Threads at all... that seems horrid. The fact it can't touch Mongoose, and they have K-grip as an out for it IF you are lucky enough to hit one of their 4 Goyfs makes it seems horrid there IMO.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Roodmistah

Against Threshold I wouldn't imagine boarding in Threads at all... that seems horrid. The fact it can't touch Mongoose, and they have K-grip as an out for it IF you are lucky enough to hit one of their 4 Goyfs makes it seems horrid there IMO.

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I wouldn't say it's so out of the question... First, you already have plenty of Krosan Grip targets in your deck, most of which you'd be happy to sacrifice a Threads to let live (Dreadnought, Counterbalance/Top). Secondly, Mongeese can be killed by your Factories, or by Tarmogoyf if you run them, or even sometimes by two Mages. And finally, "+2 Goyf" is the most powerful effect you can get in this matchup for a single card. Boarding in two copies against Threshold used to work fine for me when I was testing mono-U Dreadstill a few months ago.

As an aside, Threshold lists with Dark Confidant are becoming common, and against them the Threads are definitely good.

It's pretty bad against Threshold trust me...The most I'd ever board in would be 1...just as a silver bullet but that's pretty much it. There's a ton of uses for it in other matchups, however.

Ok, maybe that threads won't get slots at sideboard. I have local tournament saturday where i'm going to play ur-dreadstill. I have heard that there will be lots of Mono-Blue Control (MUC), so i would need some tips against that matchup. Example what to side in and out? I guess out will go 4x Dazes and maybe 1x Standstill? And in 3x Red Elemental Blast and 3x Echoing Truth? Also what sideboard options is against EvaGreen? Thanks for helping :)

Well first off MUC is near unloseable, they simply cannot deal with a Dreadnought, there only out is Powder Keg and you have 1000x Stifles. Also you win the draw go game because you have Mishra's Factory.

Assuming you are playing Rodney's Standard Ur List here would be the sideboarding:
// Lands
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
3 [REW] Wasteland
6 [ARE] Island (8)
2 [u] Volcanic Island

// Creatures
4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 [FD] Trinket Mage

// Spells
4 [SC] Stifle
3 [CS] Counterbalance
2 [TSP] Trickbind
4 [NE] Daze
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [OD] Standstill
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [DIS] Spell Snare

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [R] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [b] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [7E] Pyroclasm

-4 Daze
-1 Spell Snare
-1 Engineered Explosives

+3 Red Elemental Blast
+2 Echoing Truth
+1 Pithing Needle

Echoing Truth isn't bad against EvaGreen. Spell snare is good. Be aware of Choke post-side. If you have Grip or anti-enchantment cards, put them post-sb.

But however, it's an hard MU.

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PS: I'm currently testing a UGWr version... :wink: It's good but I had to put 23 lands to make it consistant. If I would be convinced Jotun Grunt can be as good as Tarmo, I would go UWr, but I'm not.

Creatures:

3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Trinket Mage
3 Tarmogoyf

NOTE: I had to drop creatures to put more lands. - Trinket, - Tarmo.

Spells:

4 Brainstorm
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Standstill
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Trickbind
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
3 Counterbalance
3 Swords to Plowshares

NOTE: I had problems against creatures like Tombstalker & Exalted Angel. But my MAJOR problems is that on my weekly local tournament, the rounds are only 40 to 45 minutes. I had problems finishing games against control decks because it was always a goyf or a mishra battle. I think removal can be the best option for me.

// Lands
1 Volcanic Island
3 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
2 Tundra
2 Tropical Island

NOTE: 23 lands ftw. +1 fetch, +1 dual (-1 volcanic, +2 tundra)

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Jotun Grunt
SB: 3 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 Firespout
SB: 2 Krosan Grip

NOTE: I kicked out Tormod's and put 3 Jotun. I'm stil not sure about that move and I will see if the 4color is consistant. If it's not, I'll test UWr.

PS2: PLEASE note that I have a diversified Metagame and sometimes random so it may explain why I don't play Ur list = Not enough threat, not enough removal. Creatures-based decks are pretty common.


PM

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Enigma

Echoing Truth isn't bad against EvaGreen. Spell snare is good. Be aware of Choke post-side. If you have Grip or anti-enchantment cards, put them post-sb.

But however, it's an hard MU.

-----------------

PS: I'm currently testing a UGWr version... :wink: It's good but I had to put 23 lands to make it consistant. If I would be convinced Jotun Grunt can be as good as Tarmo, I would go UWr, but I'm not.

Creatures:

3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Trinket Mage
3 Tarmogoyf

NOTE: I had to drop creatures to put more lands. - Trinket, - Tarmo.

Spells:

4 Brainstorm
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Standstill
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Trickbind
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
3 Counterbalance
3 Swords to Plowshares

NOTE: I had problems against creatures like Tombstalker & Exalted Angel. But my MAJOR problems is that on my weekly local tournament, the rounds are only 40 to 45 minutes. I had problems finishing games against control decks because it was always a goyf or a mishra battle. I think removal can be the best option for me.

// Lands
1 Volcanic Island
3 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
2 Tundra
2 Tropical Island

NOTE: 23 lands ftw. +1 fetch, +1 dual (-1 volcanic, +2 tundra)

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Jotun Grunt
SB: 3 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 Firespout
SB: 2 Krosan Grip

NOTE: I kicked out Tormod's and put 3 Jotun. I'm stil not sure about that move and I will see if the 4color is consistant. If it's not, I'll test UWr.

PS2: PLEASE note that I have a diversified Metagame and sometimes random so it may explain why I don't play Ur list = Not enough threat, not enough removal. Creatures-based decks are pretty common.


PM

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You don't have any dredge or/and loam decks in your meta? I suppose Tormod's Crypts are quite required against those matchups. Jotun Grunt just won't be fast enought against Dredge and Trinket Mage doesn't find it too :/

I tested today against EvaGreen without sideboard and games went like 2-4 for me. One game went for favor cause opponent can't find enought mana to empty his hand fast enought and other just nought beats and not enought removal from EvaGreen. I find Hypnotic Specter is really annoying, if that hits table.. err. Afer sideboarding things will of course change but game 1..

Thanks J.V. for advices :)

2 weeks ago I won a 14 man tourney with the following list:

3x Dreadnought
4x Trinket mage

3x FoW
4x Spell snare
4x Daze
3x Counterbalence
2x Top
3x Lotus petal
4x Brainstorm
3x Stifle
1x Trickbind
1x EE
4x Standstill

2x Flooded strand
3x Polluted delta
1x Hallowed fountain
3x Wasteland
4x Mishra's factory
7x Island
1x Academy ruins

SB:
4x BeB
1x EE
3x Crypt
8x Irrelevent crap

I realize that this deck is missing some things like full playsets of three of the most important cards, real dual lands and a full sideboard, but I just did not have them at the time.

The lotus petals were in there as filler for al the things I didn't have, but they make for some pretty explosive openings. Twice I had a turn 1 stifle-nought, which won the game. Another time i had a turn 1 counter-top. I know that i need full playsets of FoW, stifle and nought, but has anyone else tried the petal?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by e=mc^2

2 weeks ago I won a 14 man tourney with the following list:

3x Dreadnought
4x Trinket mage

3x FoW
4x Spell snare
4x Daze
3x Counterbalence
2x Top
3x Lotus petal
4x Brainstorm
3x Stifle
1x Trickbind
1x EE
4x Standstill

2x Flooded strand
3x Polluted delta
1x Hallowed fountain
3x Wasteland
4x Mishra's factory
7x Island
1x Academy ruins

SB:
4x BeB
1x EE
3x Crypt
8x Irrelevent crap

I realize that this deck is missing some things like full playsets of three of the most important cards, real dual lands and a full sideboard, but I just did not have them at the time.

The lotus petals were in there as filler for al the things I didn't have, but they make for some pretty explosive openings. Twice I had a turn 1 stifle-nought, which won the game. Another time i had a turn 1 counter-top. I know that i need full playsets of FoW, stifle and nought, but has anyone else tried the petal?

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Those Lotus Petals seems pretty random for me. If you get 1st turn stifle-nought, there must be some backup against decks like EvaGreen. Did your sideboard contain some white cards or did you play Hallowed Fountain just to get EE@2? What did you face at tournament?

The fountain was there only for EE for 2. I had just thrown the deck together earlier that day so it wasn't really complete.

Here were the matchups:

Swiss:
Ichorid 2-1

Goblins 2-1

EtW combo 2-0

Berzerk MGA 0-2

Top 4:
U/B control 2-0

Berzerk 2-0

The biggest problem I had was the MGA deck. I couldn't deal with multiple green creatures played on the same turn. Trinket mage foe EE was too slow. I have yet to play a disruption heavy deck like Eva Green, so i'm not sure how this list would fare. Even though I like the petals I will be removing them for playsets of the important cards as I find them. I was just wondering if people cut something else for them.