[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)

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If you have any questions about card choices just ask.

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I like your list. How would RoF be in place if mox and something else as a 3 of? Similar to liams list from pg 173. I want to play PiF main but from what I've read it wants more rituals. I guess what I'm asking is do you miss RoF with PiF main? I don't currently own any but I may pick some up. Other than that I really like cabal therapy + probe over TS/preordain, especially since sneak and show can't missdirect it as accurately I've found and probe is just good. Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by Tombstalker

I like your list. How would RoF be in place if mox and something else as a 3 of? Similar to liams list from pg 173. I want to play PiF main but from what I've read it wants more rituals. I guess what I'm asking is do you miss RoF with PiF main? I don't currently own any but I may pick some up. Other than that I really like cabal therapy + probe over TS/preordain, especially since sneak and show can't missdirect it as accurately I've found and probe is just good. Thoughts?

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The chrome mox is there so your AN flips aren't as miserable for IMS, also will randomly help you get hellbent and it is kind of like the ghetto 16th land. I haven't really messed with RoF but can understand wanting the inclusion, if so I'd start cutting lotus petals, and possibly cabal rituals. I would not count on RoF as any more than a +1 on mana, randomly sometimes you might get a +2. The way the deck is built you want to go kind of long (turn 3/4), so in that case cabal rituals are almost always +3(85%+). with that being said the RoF, may make PiF about a half a turn faster but I would have to get some testing in.

Overall I do not know what I would cut for rite of flames, costing one versus zero for artifact sources is gigantic and also only producing red mana is a significant drawback IMO(only ever need RR, or rarely RRR). I would maybe look to cut C rit's but the investment to mana is so insane, eventually you get to a point where playing around daze and pierce in multiples becomes trivial, and the only thing you fear is force of will.

I played with probe/ therapy for a while, and maybe I'm just not a master but I hated it. Having selection instead of just a cantrip is huge. I never found myself trying to kill my opponent in the first few turns so the mana requirement on preordain never bothered me. Also every single probe after the first one is miserable. Paying mana for probe is a really bad feeling.

On therapy; someone put it to me this way:

"Would you pay one black mana to have your opponent draw a card?"
"No"
"Well that's what it's like when you miss with therapy"

They were slightly off, you are actually discarding a card, which is significantly worse, since often all of Storm's cards are worth a little more than everyone else's.

If I am going to pay 2 life I want to take something from their hand. Misdirection doesn't matter (as the owner of the spell you still choose).

Edit: Just looked at Liam's list, I will probably try something like that at some point, I have produced U off of petals to flashback ponder's in the GY and got there a few too many times. Oh and BTW ponder is the best cantrip in the deck in the end. I have gotten there off chaining flashback'ed cantrips in my yard after being extracted on tutors a bunch of times. Never scoop.

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Originally Posted by ThomasDowd

Kills Thalia for one mana. Kills everything else for zero. Is sweet to flip off AN (which is probably your main plan in that matchup anyway) at any point. Also is storm +1 at that point vs any dude. I love the card. Most of the time I take out a lot of the discard versus maverick and just board in a pile of bounce and the pacts. Drawing a thoughtseize at any point after your opener is miserable on the draw and is not much better on the play, and all of their hate is permanent based. I hate the echoing truth and it should probably be another chain since trying to mise your one out to a chalice on one is miserable (if meltdown is cut).


I have killed many an ethersworn canonist with slaughter pact.

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Sounds reasonable.

Me personally I like having more outs game 1 against Maverick. That's why I play Dethmark/Infest in my board.

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Originally Posted by MTG Junkie

Sounds reasonable.

Me personally I like having more outs game 1 against Maverick. That's why I play Dethmark/Infest in my board.

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There is a virtue's ruin in the board.......

I think if you are expending two burning wishes game one versus maverick to deal with bears you have probably lost at that point anyway.

Edit: I may switch it to a Deathmark, since 2 is much easier than 4.

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Originally Posted by ThomasDowd

There is a virtue's ruin in the board.......

I think if you are expending two burning wishes game one versus maverick to deal with bears you have probably lost at that point anyway.

Edit: I may switch it to a Deathmark, since 2 is much easier than 4.

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I had a few questions about your list. I have been testing something similar (the probe/therapy build, which I didn't like that much).

- Do you feel that 7 tutors is too few? Are you consistently able to draw into action?

- Are 3 basics enough? In my testing with UBr ANT I felt like I was either playing a slower TES or a less stable UB ANT deck.

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Originally Posted by ThomasDowd

There is a virtue's ruin in the board.......

I think if you are expending two burning wishes game one versus maverick to deal with bears you have probably lost at that point anyway.

Edit: I may switch it to a Deathmark, since 2 is much easier than 4.

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I think you may have been offended.
If so that's not how I ment it,I was simply stating what I prefer.

I agree if you're casting 2 Wishes for hate cards you're probably out of the game.
I play both because I like to be more versatile, for example if they play turn 1 Mother of Ruins Infest will be the card I wish for. If there is no Mother of Ruins and they just have Thalia ill go the faster route and get Deathmark.

All this is based on game 1s assuming you can't just kill them t1 or t2.

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Originally Posted by apistat_commander

I had a few questions about your list. I have been testing something similar (the probe/therapy build, which I didn't like that much).

- Do you feel that 7 tutors is too few? Are you consistently able to draw into action?

- Are 3 basics enough? In my testing with UBr ANT I felt like I was either playing a slower TES or a less stable UB ANT deck.

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7 is fine. Since this deck is about a turn slower than TES you can often find action anyway. 3 basics have been fine for me, you only ever need red the turn you go off so volcanic is often the last land you fetch. (you probably could go down to one volcanic but I have needed RR and RRR enough times that I wouldn't want to) I wish I had another black basic source sometimes, but having a more flexible tutor in burning wish and a great engine is worth the red splash, having just the tutor chain in the UB builds is pretty bad, and since those decks just want to hit land drops any clock makes your AN's worse and grim tutors bad, and the CMC in UB is already higher than TES in that regards with action.

In reality you do fall somewhere in between TES and UB, which is probably why I like it so much.

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Originally Posted by MTG Junkie

I think you may have been offended.
If so that's not how I ment it,I was simply stating what I prefer.

I agree if you're casting 2 Wishes for hate cards you're probably out of the game.
I play both because I like to be more versatile, for example if they play turn 1 Mother of Ruins Infest will be the card I wish for. If there is no Mother of Ruins and they just have Thalia ill go the faster route and get Deathmark.

All this is obviously assuming you can't just kill them t1 or t2.

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Not really, I just thought you might have missed the wish target, sorry about my tone, if it came off weird. I could see playing both the deathmark and a sweeper, I would still keep the bounce / pact package in tact I think though and maybe cut the meltdown.

I often found that just getting the sweeper was fine most of the time though since it just kills everything. I'll give it a shot.

I never really played against misdirection with discard, good to know I control which card is discarded. This actually makes therapy worse against misdirection, bummer. Now I'm reconsidering RoF although liams list looked pretty well equipped to abuse PiF, guess ill just proxy a few hands first. Thanks for the insightful comments.
Edit- forgot to ask why chrome mox over mox diamond? Pitching extra lands seems better than pitching business spells and losing potential storm count.

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Originally Posted by Tombstalker

I never really played against misdirection with discard, good to know I control which card is discarded. This actually makes therapy worse against misdirection, bummer. Now I'm reconsidering RoF although liams list looked pretty well equipped to abuse PiF, guess ill just proxy a few hands first. Thanks for the insightful comments.
Edit- forgot to ask why chrome mox over mox diamond? Pitching extra lands seems better than pitching business spells and losing potential storm count.

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Often after your AN flip you have redundant dead cards such as excess cantrips or discard spells. those get imprinted on Chrome mox, in this regard mox diamond would be better.

but before AN you often have extra spells (extra discard spells, cantrips you don't need, a redundant burning wish) to imprint onto a chrome mox (also can aid in hellbent), but not always with land so in a deck with 15 lands and 44 other spells(8 of which cannot be imprinted) it is a little easier to imprint the chrome mox than ditch a land.

again, only as a one of in the starting 60 for that reason, and it is a lot better than the 4th preordain. Boarding into the second one makes the AN better and speeds you up a little bit, for anywhere where you are relying on AN.

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Originally Posted by Tombstalker

I never really played against misdirection with discard, good to know I control which card is discarded. This actually makes therapy worse against misdirection, bummer. Now I'm reconsidering RoF although liams list looked pretty well equipped to abuse PiF, guess ill just proxy a few hands first. Thanks for the insightful comments.
Edit- forgot to ask why chrome mox over mox diamond? Pitching extra lands seems better than pitching business spells and losing potential storm count.

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Well at least its 2for1 since you don't have to discard something... I was very disappointed with RoF list, it's more problems than benefits, it's really complicated to fetch the right color (impossible) while on few lands = wasteland actually matters, and is often stuck in your all black hand/the other way around, i really can't recommend it, you need a primary business color for deck to work. I have seen interesting Grinding station like list with Burning wish that used red as a primary color

If I must cast cabal ritual with only 6 cards in the yard is there a way I can generate BBBBB instead of BBB? i.e. some storm pilot trick im missing?

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Originally Posted by Tombstalker

If I must cast cabal ritual with only 6 cards in the yard is there a way I can generate BBBBB instead of BBB? i.e. some storm pilot trick im missing?

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Break LED. This happens very frequently since you need a draw spell to set it up, and the only one where it really makes sense is SDT (if you had BS, you could just wait until after you cast Brainstorm and it was in the graveyard to make 7 cards).

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Originally Posted by emidln

Break LED. This happens very frequently since you need a draw spell to set it up, and the only one where it really makes sense is SDT (if you had BS, you could just wait until after you cast Brainstorm and it was in the graveyard to make 7 cards).

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To elaborate a bit: If you have four mana available with Infernal Tutor, Cabal Ritual, and LED in hand, but only six cards in your graveyard, a little trick is to play out the LED, then cast Infernal Tutor and in response cast Cabal Ritual and in response to CRitual crack the LED. When CRitual resolves, the LED will be in the graveyard and provide the seventh card.

Yes ok thanks thats what I was looking for guys, I thought it worked that way but sometimes these things get complicated in discussion so thanks.

Ive really been enjoying the UBr version although after testing I found RoF to be pretty underwhelming (as advised by ThomasDowd and Sloshthedark) so its out.

I have been doing pretty well with the deck but I find maverick to be a bitch if I dont win t1-2 because mom + thalia + teeg + mindcensor is brutal and thats just game 1. Heck even just thalia is a huge pain. How do storm decks without wish even win against these guys?
Against mav Ive been going for early wish into EtW alot (if I cant win outright) and also siding into EtW, slaughter pact, CoV and IoK, but is there a better way to deal with them?
Sometimes ill wish for massacre but not have enough mana to wipe the same turn and then teeg will hit the board, hell I even got owned by a random lucky bojuka bog once heh. I also have infect in my SB but it is always too expensive when I need it. Ive never seen hate be quite this effective against an archtype except maybe against dredge. Still this is quite a fun deck to pilot and im sure ill get better.

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Originally Posted by Tombstalker

Yes ok thanks thats what I was looking for guys, I thought it worked that way but sometimes these things get complicated in discussion so thanks.

Ive really been enjoying the UBr version although after testing I found RoF to be pretty underwhelming (as advised by ThomasDowd and Sloshthedark) so its out.

I have been doing pretty well with the deck but I find maverick to be a bitch if I dont win t1-2 because mom + thalia + teeg + mindcensor is brutal and thats just game 1. Heck even just thalia is a huge pain. How do storm decks without wish even win against these guys?
Against mav Ive been going for early wish into EtW alot (if I cant win outright) and also siding into EtW, slaughter pact, CoV and IoK, but is there a better way to deal with them?
Sometimes ill wish for massacre but not have enough mana to wipe the same turn and then teeg will hit the board, hell I even got owned by a random lucky bojuka bog once heh. I also have infect in my SB but it is always too expensive when I need it. Ive never seen hate be quite this effective against an archtype except maybe against dredge. Still this is quite a fun deck to pilot and im sure ill get better.

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The builds without wish often have few(Grim tutor>CoV) to no outs game one versus a thalia. I wouldn't board in the EtW as you are just trying to T1-T2 them either via an early EtW via wish or an AN, and if that window closes then you are on a sweeper plan. also massacre, although free is horrible since it cannot be cast under a teeg. i play virtues ruin there, and although it may cost 4 mana under a thalia, it kills everything and eliminates their clock effectively giving you a turn or two to draw more gas and /or another removal spell if they have another thalia in hand.

playing around grave hate is pretty easy after you get some more practice in, it's actually really bad, also if it is extraction it is actually good for you (essentially +2 storm) because cantrips surprisingly get there alot.

Ok I have some more questions and ideas but beer with me (heh) since im still learning the intricacies of this deck.

ad nauseam- obviously a sick ass draw spell but I rarely ever use it and from what ive read most people here feel the same. It may be blaspheme but is this card maindeck worthy still? Aggressive decks just seem to drop my life so quickly I cant usually choose this option. Maybe im doing it wrong idk.

empty the warrens- this card has been great against delver decks and even maverick and sneak and show t1, is there a reason why dont I see this in the main anymore? Ive been using cabal therapy + probe and along with wish into warrens ive had some dredge-esque moments where ive just shredded peoples hands with free therapies and generated storm from/for nothing.

ill-gotten gains- this currently occupys space in my board because its cool but after trying PiF ive never opted for it. Can I remove this or is it worthwhile as an alternative win to PiF/AdN?

Lastly what do you guys think of innocent blood? Not always great against aggro but I was thinking specifically for show and tell into emrakul/griselbrand (not that it beats griselbrand anyway but emrakul is another story). Oh and what is the current 'standard' SB for a UBr deck?

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Originally Posted by Tombstalker

ad nauseam- obviously a sick ass draw spell but I rarely ever use it and from what ive read most people here feel the same. It may be blaspheme but is this card maindeck worthy still? Aggressive decks just seem to drop my life so quickly I cant usually choose this option. Maybe im doing it wrong idk.

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It's there because drawing it naturally is insane, and it is really strong if you have the way to cast it early. It gives you more options at minimal drawback, which is ideal

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empty the warrens- this card has been great against delver decks and even maverick and sneak and show t1, is there a reason why dont I see this in the main anymore? Ive been using cabal therapy + probe and along with wish into warrens ive had some dredge-esque moments where ive just shredded peoples hands with free therapies and generated storm from/for nothing.

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On the other hand, drawing empty is often dead beyond turn 2. If you have enough mana to combo off into empty via tutors, could you not have found a way to tendrils for a sure win? I don;t think we are fast enough to use it reliably, hence relegated to the board

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ill-gotten gains- this currently occupys space in my board because its cool but after trying PiF ive never opted for it. Can I remove this or is it worthwhile as an alternative win to PiF/AdN?

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Against Burn or other fast aggro matchups, I personally feel it is a good choice. Often setting up PiF takes additional turns over IGG (and IGG is hardly ever slower than PiF, the exception being not enough storm) and that added speed against decks that only interact through the redzone has been great for me, but if your meta does not warrant this, by all means. I have won several games because IGG was there, and before adding it, I had lost games where if I had it, I would have won. I like more options

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Lastly what do you guys think of innocent blood? Not always great against aggro but I was thinking specifically for show and tell into emrakul/griselbrand (not that it beats griselbrand anyway but emrakul is another story). Oh and what is the current 'standard' SB for a UBr deck?

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Not a huge fan of boarding removal for other combo decks at all. Wipe away at least hits CB (although not emrakyl), but your best bet is speed, IMO.

Tammit67- thanks for the help your answers make sense. EtW and IGG will both stay in my board as 1 each, and a single AdN main.
As for EtW vs winning with tendrils, I have only been using EtW on turns 1-2 where its been great, just didnt think about topdecking it later than that.

It would be fantastic if the primer was updated.