Probably the worst thing about multiple Libraries is when multiple Librarys trigger in play :|
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Probably the worst thing about multiple Libraries is when multiple Librarys trigger in play :|
Well yes, but if you have a fetch you can fetch and shuffle your library between the triggers, which is pretty neat.Quote:
Originally Posted by jandax
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jiaozy
Yeah, it's just that the majority of players wouldn't properly stack those triggers. Takes time
hey everyone
this is my first post here,and I want to knowwhat u guys SB against Show & Sneak Atack deck.
Always a problem to me
I was thinking on phyrexian metamorph,that I still can use against jitte,iona os another artifact/creature that could gimme some kind of adavantage.
ty
Was able to complete my zoo deck recently and here is the deck list: I've splashed in Dark confidant for draw engine/card advantage. Tips and suggestions would be much appreciated.. thx
"Manila Zoo"
Creature 24
4 Goblin Guide
4 Wild Nacatl
4 dark confidant
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmagoyf
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Knight of the Reliquary
instant/sorcery 13
2Lightning Helix
3Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
Artifact 2
2U.Jitte
Land [21]
3 Arid Mesa
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Bayou
2 Plateau
3 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
Anyone with experience going against BUG Still type decks? Lots of counters, lots of creature kill, lots of card draw. Any good sideboard ideas against it?
Welcome to The Source, Vinnie. Please take a moment to read some of the stickies in the main forum to get familiar with the forum rules.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinnie
Against the Sneak/Show decks, you want to counter the Show and Tell and some of their filtering, so REB is useful in that aspect. Against Sneak Attack, quickly removing the enchantment is useful too; but doesn't always help out. It might typically become a race to see who can win faster.
Thrun, the Last Troll is a good option, as well as a steady stream of pressure to overwhelm them. REB is nice against an active Jace, but it's not very likely that it will resolve against their counters. Man-lands could also be useful. Steady pressure might be the best way, coupled with Wasteland/REB disruption along the way.Quote:
Originally Posted by CorpT
On Grim Lavamancer, Qasali Pridemage and Sylvan Library:
I agree Lavamancer should be a 3-of, and he is now. I was testing out the Goblin Guide playset, as they are more useful in numbers, but Grim Lavamancer is still more valuable in too many matchups to skimp on. 3/3 split is what I'll be running tonight at the LGS.
I disagree that Qasali Pridemage is cuttable right now however. Stoneforge and Batterskull alone make this card more valuable than ever, not to mention all the Landstill decks running around. Also, without maindeck artifact hate, fast zoo decks (with all our glorious 1-drops) just fold to a Chalice of the Void on "One". Exalted is also nothing to sneeze at, so QP stays at 4 in my list.
I've been tempted to run 3 Sylvan Library before too, as it has won me many games that were otherwise out of reach. However, I think 2 is the right number, as we don't need to see it every game and in some cases we don't want to see it at all. I could see having 1 in the SB for control matches, but even that seems unnecessary. Jandax and trivial_matters are right though, if you know how to stack the triggers properly and use your fetchlands wisely, multiple Sylvan Libraries can actually be quite useful. I can see running 3 in a bigger Zoo list, but at the moment I think we want as much pressure as possible.
This also leads to the age old question of whether to run Dark Confidant or not in Zoo. It seems tempting to me but the sacrifice of running an even less stable manabase doesn't seem worth the sometimes-added advantage of a couple Bob flips. If anything, I think Stoneforge Mystic is just as valuable and adds a similar, albeit slower, card advantage engine for the same price, but on color. As great as Bob is, I don't think it's worth getting Wastelanded or mana screwed out of the game more often.
On BUG Still:
BUG Still certainly seems like the worst of the Standstill decks for us, especially the ones with heavier black removal. In addition to what rukcus said above, we have Choke and Price of Progress to help our game against them. I think Price of Progress (PoP) is stronger in Zoo, since we are a proactive deck and we need to keep pressure on them, which Choke doesn't really accomplish. By the time you are ready to cast it, they probably don't need their nonbasics that much, so it's usually better to punish them for having them in play. Also, keeping track of what their counterspell suite is like during Game 1 can help you close the other games with more confidence. It's easy to fall into the trap thinking they always have a counter, but that's what they want you to believe. Count how many Spell Snares they use against you and gauge what other counterspells they might have in hand before you "POP" your PoP, and you might be able to sneak through a high damage spell for the win.
Some good points there. I disagree on Choke though. Landing a Choke often means you win because most of the time they can't get rid of it. Timing it right is quite important, since playing it when the majority of their lands are tapped greatly reduces their options.
Price of Progress is really good and I'd run it in any case.
Try wasteland over PoP. Most folks see PoP as a threat and might play with it in mind. But wasting them in the opening turns is nut high. For the rest of the match they play basics or run their shit into WL, it helps Zoo's aggro strategy a bit. However, PoP can straight up kill outta nowhere, but can be countered pretty easily.
I will give Wasteland a try. A friend actually encouraged me to try it at the GP but I hadn't playtested the mana base at all so I chose to stay stable in that regard. I hesitate to add Wastes because nearly every card in the deck is color intensive, but I can see the value. Will test this next week, if I'm not playing Junk.
I'm currently using 2 PoPs in my sideboard. I like the fact that it can end games quickly vs. some combo variants.Quote:
Originally Posted by jandax
I've been tinkering around with my zoo list for the B-More open, and i've been having trouble with the new hivemind deck. I'm considering running 2 angel's grace in the board just to auto win the MU, but I hate running cards for just one deck. Enchantment removal isn't that good because they just got off in response, and if they give you prority so that you can cast a krosin grip, they are just a bad hivemind player.
Also, play Tariff, that card is awesome against progen decks and show and tell.
Best cards against that deck that aren't "narrow" are Ethersworn Canonist and Red Elemental Blasts. Gaddock Teeg is decent too, but doesn't stop Show and Tell.Quote:
Originally Posted by bombbonne
The awesome thing about Canonist is that if they cheat in Hive Mind off Show and Tell, you can just slip in a Canonist and destroy their Hive Mind with a Pridemage or a Blast on your turn. They won't be able to play a Pact because they'll be first up to pay.
Last time i played was around survival banning, but before the batterskull buisness, and it seems that it is just better to play a slower deck with batterskull than zoo now. Or at least this is what I hear. Personally, i'd like to hear some suggestions as to how to make my deck more prepared for the meta, and any arguments for or against Batterskull/mystic and green suns zenith.
Heres my list, its very fast, so it feels weird if i were to slow it down, but friends are encouraging me to.
Creature 24
2 teeg
4 Wild Nacatl
4 steppe lynx
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmagoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
1 Knight of the Reliquary (or maindeck krosan grip depending on meta)
enchantment 2
2 sylvan library
instant/sorcery 16
3 Lightning Helix
3Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
2 POP
Land [20]
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Plateau
2 Taiga
4 Arid Mesa
1 savannah
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
I was consistantly top 8ing with this, but it seems that our meta is full of stoneforge decks and dredge now.
Should i put stoneforge package in? if yes, how.
Zenith? seems bad to me, others disagree..zoo is tempo based, it's not about looking for defensive answers, but about making to many problems for the defense to not be able to answer...
Is zoo bad against stone forge decks? That has not been my experiece.
Your list looks fine to me.
I ran two mystics at my last local weekly and they were fine, but I don't think Batterskull is required when you just run two mystics and are running 3/3s + virtual 4/5s for 1 and Goyfs at 2. In my experiences, Batterskull has value as a late game winner in decks built around mystic, which fast Zoo lists are not and should not be. It also does well against decks with little to no removal/fat, which we already should do well against. I think playing mystics in this deck should attempt solve our biggest combat related problem in getting past fat guys with our weenies(Pro: Green sword for aggression and Jitte for racing fat/being a general bad-ass).
In playing against Batterskull, you'll most likely be able to remove the mystic making it extremely slow, allowing an attempt to get the jump on them before turn 5+ where it'll come down. But again, it's just a 4/4. Goyf will usually outsize it at that point, as well as Knights. Pridemage/Path is a pain for them as well since you can usually hold those for it unless you're playing Bant/Rock + Stoneforge. You also can run a few Ancient Grudges in the sideboard if you really have fear of it. Grudges are pretty good right now in my meta, anyway.
I've tried Green Sun's Zenith, didn't like it much. To make it worthwhile you have to start to look like Rock - Black + Lavamancer/a little burn, and start fighting midrange battles Zoo really shouldn't be fighting in my opinion.
So in this new meta, what decks seem to give you the most trouble? Obviously tendrils and dredge, but I dont know about the new combo decks and maverick, etc. also r/w/x stoneforge decks seem hart to deal with because they have a lot of removal, so we're just trading creatures until they play bigger things and batterskull.
maybe you wanna follow your own advice?Quote:
Originally Posted by jnosrati
RWU and RWB don't seem that bad to me, granted no one runs it in my metagame. What big threats do they run? Maverick isn't run in my meta, either, but I would guess it's close since its basically guys + removal v more guys + less removal. Storm combo is still a bitch, but what are you gonna do, I suppose. Dredge is weird, one month I'll lose to it 3 times, and then win the next few times easily. My losses with my latest Zoo lists I've been trying out the past month have been the usual suspects, NO RUG along with Painter/Double Chalice blowouts. Lost a match to Merfolk, happens.Quote:
Originally Posted by jnosrati