[Deck] Dredge

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Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus

So you deliberately chose LEDless to be slower? Why is it not good to speed up a deck,getting less dead draws, better ways to fight current hate and a stronger early.game in the process? Sure I can think of situations where tribe is better, but all of them are postboard.

Edit: on a sidenote, I realls think about not posting here anymore. Call ne an elitist,arrogant scumbag, don't care. I came here because this is a competitive forum, but in reality; all we do(exspecially in this thread)is argue over which suboptimal card choice is better, back that up with poor reasoning and some top8 finishes and move on to the next bad decklist. I'm really sick of it.
At Igri: nothing personal, I feel like that at least for 2 months now.

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Count me in on feeling this way.

Frankly, I find The Chosen Ones to be the ones that are acting like elitists, etc., etc. I also feel that I've saturated the learning that I can gather from this forum since I started reading each of your posts to eventually join-in on the fun. Kudos to all that have consistently provided sound advice - I surely wouldn't have learned so much if it weren't for you! :cool:

Cheers,
jares

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Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus

This is even more ridiulous than suggesting entomb. There is no way a dredge 12 card/ dig me to hate card is even slightly worse than tribe. Which does almost nothing on its own btw. And the point of LEDless dredge is to kill my opponent. What else? This can also be achieved with tribes but hey,why not speed my deck up a turn if I can.

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FKZ :D
Joking. But if you say THIS you can also play FKZ and try to win turn 1-2.

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Originally Posted by igri_is_a_bk

I'm on a posting frenzy, but my break is almost over so it'll have to end after this one.

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Be careful... you might dethrone me as the uncrowned king of doubleposts because of this frenzy. :laugh:

Cheers,
jares

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Originally Posted by igri_is_a_bk

I'm on a posting frenzy, but my break is almost over so it'll have to end after this one.

Yes, absolutely. You definitely chose not play LED in order to be slower and better g2 and 3. How can that be argued otherwise?

What I'm saying, ultimately, is that I would consider there to be two variations of this deck that are best at what they do. First, the quadlaser list. Second, the list with 15 rainbow lands, 8 dorks and 4-of everything.

I believe if you play a deck that's in the middle of those two, you are choosing a build that isn't strongest at anything. So, again, I ask where is the advantage of those lists?

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I am a firm believer thad carddraw is better g2/3 than discard. Also even without looting I would not play Tribes over Firestorm.
Kiwi:: FKZ is a joke at what he does.

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Originally Posted by igri_is_a_bk

What I'm saying, ultimately, is that I would consider there to be two variations of this deck that are best at what they do. First, the quadlaser list. Second, the list with 15 rainbow lands, 8 dorks and 4-of everything.

I believe if you play a deck that's in the middle of those two, you are choosing a build that isn't strongest at anything. So, again, I ask where is the advantage of those lists?

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I don't think there's a list with 15 rainbows. And I tought that running 11 rainbows already made lists more reliable against hate than using 8+LEDs.

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Originally Posted by Gui

I don't think there's a list with 15 rainbows. And I tought that running 11 rainbows already made lists more reliable against hate than using 8+LEDs.

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Yeah, typo. I just meant 15 lands total.

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Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus

So you deliberately chose LEDless to be slower? Why is it not good to speed up a deck,getting less dead draws, better ways to fight current hate and a stronger early.game in the process? Sure I can think of situations where tribe is better, but all of them are postboard.

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Obviously, one does not choose to go LEDless in order to be slower. That argument does not make sense. One might do it in order to be more consistent.
Why do you get more dead draws with Tribe?
You also don't get better ways to fight hate in general. You get the chance to race Ooze and Snapcaster-Extraction, but you're more susceptible to all kinds of hate cards by default, because you discard your whole hand in one shot. I thought that was obvious.

I'll give you some situations:

- You have only one Dredger and don't waht to whiff on your first Dredge on turn one (say after you crack LED in resp to a draw effect)
- You need one more body for a Cabal Therapy in say a combo matchup, where it really matters to Therapy right now.
- If you don't have a draw effect in your hand, Tribe is miles better than LED in that it keeps your engine going while blocking their threats while LED will leave you without any ressources and chance of winning if your first Dredge doesn't hit more Dredgers or at least a Looting (which doesn't really get you anywhere without said Dredgers).

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Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus

Edit: on a sidenote, I realls think about not posting here anymore. Call ne an elitist,arrogant scumbag, don't care. I came here because this is a competitive forum, but in reality; all we do(exspecially in this thread)is argue over which suboptimal card choice is better, back that up with poor reasoning and some top8 finishes and move on to the next bad decklist. I'm really sick of it.
At Igri: nothing personal, I feel like that at least for 2 months now.

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I can understand your feelings about a lot of the content in this thread. Of course you're free to do whatever you want, but I wouldn't leave the discussion because of that.


EDIT: snap Eh, got a bit too hateful about things that are irrelevant to the discussion.


But this is an international forum. I'm not going to guess how many people in the world play this deck. You won't stop people from bringing up suboptimal card choices from time to time. If I'm new to this deck and have never played it before, I might think that Entomb is actually good. Many people who bring such cards up here are saying that they're looking for help with their build, they don't claim that they had an enlightenment that their list is the one and only way to go (this is much more the German style of thinking).



As of my personal thinking, I think that LED-Lootings is insane and I definitely want to play it. The thing is just that I will not play it unless I'm able to fit at least 14 lands in my main deck as well, and I haven't found any way to achieve this until now.

Also you misunderstood me there. I am too tired and lazy to clarify now and I do not think its worthwhile. I don't quite see where you been hateful though.
Regarding the new people playing this deck: we desperately need a new primer to refer to imo. I am glad Hollywood works on this as discussions will hopefully be less tirering once the new primer is done.

That's one of the reasons why I love this fourm - you can leave for a couple of hours and when you come back another pointless discussion has started.

So lets clear up some stuff.

First of all the biggest question: Why did I or anyone else chooses to paly LEDless Dredge over LED Dredge ?

Ofc I can only speak for my self and the answer is: I don't choose one version above the other, as I've played both of them and will continue to do so.
Playing in a local tourney with 16~22 people usually means that people will catch up with their sideboards pretty quick and that you'll face more hate, thus playing LEDless, which is in the better choice to fight diverse hate ( Leylines, Cages, etc.), seemed like the way to go.

Now playing in a monthly tourney ( 50+ player) is a hole different story. In those situations I'd allway choose to play LED Dredge, because it gives you the edge in certain games you wouldn't be able to win with LEDless Dredge ( well I don't think I told you anything new, but if we'd cut everything in this thread that has been said more then once we could easily delet over 140 pages :S ).

In the end it's allways a matter of the metagame and the personal preference.
And I actually doubt that you can't get your hands on a playset of LED if you want to play them ( c'mon someone allways has a set he could borrow you).

However what really made me mad is that you argue against Looting in LEDless Dredge in favor of Tribe.

Tribe has been outdated since Mental Misstep and since Maverick started to be popular.
If I had to cut Looting from my list ( lets ssay because they got banned, as this is the only scenario I could imagine where I wanted to cut them) I'd play the playset Firestorm again.

And allthough I'm sure that somewhere in this thread we have allready listed the reasons to run Looting and compared it to Tribe.... ah screw it, here we go again:

Looting:
+discard outled
+drawspell (enables wins faster / digs for hate)
+flashback

-no continuing discard outled

Tribe:
+continuig discard outled
+body ( good in the defense / beeing able to get saced for Therapy)

-obviously no drawspell



Now lets take in mind that the hate we face nowadays usually isn't artifact based ( if we ignore Cage for a while), thus continuing discardoutleds aren't as important as they used to be.

And with the biggest pluspoint gone there is now way you could bring up any argument that would made him better then Looting, period.

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What good turn one play do you have besides Putrid Imp in that version?

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Well lets see:
On the play
-Putrid Imp
-Study
-Looting
-Therapy
-passing the turn in order to DDD

On the draw
-Putrid Imp
-Study
-Looting
-Therapy
-DDD

Nobody is debating why you'd play one version over the other.

As for Tribe, I don't care if you think Looting is better. I will forever appreciate your post though. You spent a lot of time, and I didn't even read it after the first line.

You all realize that a new primer is in the works, right? If you don't feel like posting in here - don't. But if you're going to make intelligible and productive conversation - which I highly recommend and encourage - then everyone needs to get the sand out of their vaginas and try to relax.

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Originally Posted by Hollywood

You all realize that a new primer is in the works, right? If you don't feel like posting in here - don't. But if you're going to make intelligible and productive conversation - which I highly recommend and encourage - then everyone needs to get the sand out of their vaginas and try to relax.

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I can't wait.

I alwas feel happy, when I have some GOOD Dredge-stuff to read.

Hurry on. :laugh::laugh::laugh:

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Originally Posted by igri_is_a_bk

Nobody is debating why you'd play one version over the other.

As for Tribe, I don't care if you think Looting is better. I will forever appreciate your post though. You spent a lot of time, and I didn't even read it after the first line.

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So you are in an argument, ask a question that indicates the reason fir your choice, somebody makes an effort to articulate his thoughts and answers your incredibly stupid question and you react to that by not only ignoring his answer but also insult his efforts by making it sound ridiculous? You,sir, are the most insulting person I witnessed on this forums so far,aside from naziperm maybe. I currently rage on so many levels,it isn't even funny anymore. I find this incredibly rude. It's a slap to the face and it didn't even affect me directly. If you don't care,don't bring this issue up.

@Hollywood didn't wanna seem like a diva. Looking forward to the new primer

Everyone's all like...

http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-conte...2/03/L7sq3.gif

I genuinely don't care about Looting vs. Tribe. It's a non-issue for me, personally, because I use LED.

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Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus

I don't quite see where you been hateful though.

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Not hateful towards you or anyone specific in these forums :laugh:

I was just drifting away from the topic and thought it was irrelevant to the discussion.



The one thing that we should learn from it is that there is no one best build. Whether LED vs LEDless or Tribe vs Lootings in LEDless or whatever, as long as you know what you're doing and why you're doing it, you're fine.

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Originally Posted by Izor

The one thing that we should learn from it is that there is no one best build. Whether LED vs LEDless or Tribe vs Lootings in LEDless or whatever, as long as you know what you're doing and why you're doing it, you're fine.

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There we go. :laugh:

Amidst all the opinions floating around, the best we can do in a discussion is to properly present our arguments by providing the solid reasoning for it. If people still disagree, then we can all agree to disagree and wish each other well. :wink:

Cheers,
jares

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Originally Posted by igri_is_a_bk

As for Tribe, I don't care if you think Looting is better. I will forever appreciate your post though. You spent a lot of time, and I didn't even read it after the first line.

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I just noticed that, if you were responding directly to Felidae in your post, then you surely wouldn't have been able to respond in the following way if you indeed ignored the rest of the post after reading just the first line:

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Originally Posted by igri_is_a_bk

Nobody is debating why you'd play one version over the other.

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Try reading Felidae's post again, as I believe that it answers most, if not all, of your questions.

Cheers,
jares

Ever since I tested led-faithless, there's no argument, ledless is obsolete. The power of the combo is just insane and there is no way I'm going back to ledless. Want to fight hate better? Play some extra Rainbows in the board to help cast claim/chain.

For those who don't play LED because you don't have them, sorry bro. You're missing out.

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Originally Posted by ivanpei

Ever since I tested led-faithless, there's no argument, ledless is obsolete. The power of the combo is just insane and there is no way I'm going back to ledless.

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More of the same subjective argumentation. Nothing new - in fact, it's becoming more common. I guess that, at the end of the day, we are all entitled to our opinion.

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Originally Posted by ivanpei

For those who don't play LED because you don't have them, sorry bro. You're missing out.

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The availability of a card should NEVER be a consideration when evaluating things at a competitive level. I suggest that, moving forward, we assume that the availability of a card is NEVER a factor - I expect this assumption to save us time and text.

Cheers,
jares

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Originally Posted by ivanpei

Ever since I tested led-faithless, there's no argument, ledless is obsolete. The power of the combo is just insane and there is no way I'm going back to ledless. Want to fight hate better? Play some extra Rainbows in the board to help cast claim/chain.

For those who don't play LED because you don't have them, sorry bro. You're missing out.

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What's happening on this page?

Some people are just checking IF LED is really the way to go and is not just a hype. That's a good thing, cause they objectively check instead of posting useless biased comments that add nothingto the conversation. And BTW gold lands+ chain/claim don't help against crypt/relic.

I understand igri's point. What he meant, and what i feel the others didn't really understand well is: (tell me if i'm wrong)
if you are playing ledless with lootings instead of tribe, aren't you just playing a slower dredge deck due to the absence of LED?
He just meant to say that for him the whole point of playing ledless is having tireless tribe to fight artifact hate.
i don't know why he got all rude isntead of explaning what he meant though.

anyway, Have been playing a quadlaser oriented list and i have been putting up some decent results. I am probably going to take it to the Belgian legacy cup qualifiers and i'll post results afterwards. The quadlaser list takes away a lot of the randomness of dredge which is exactly what it needs. I played a small tournament at my LGS. I ended 3-1 i lost to a pro player with a UG infect brew :/. The other dredge player played the more combo oriented version and seemed to perform poorly.