If you aren't banking on opening Leyline, and just want to hardcast it later, I think there's a better option. Planar Void or Lost Legacy can do work as well, plus the obvious Surgical.
Mainboard Chains does seem pretty spicy.
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If you aren't banking on opening Leyline, and just want to hardcast it later, I think there's a better option. Planar Void or Lost Legacy can do work as well, plus the obvious Surgical.
Mainboard Chains does seem pretty spicy.
How many times did Chains won you(or actively helped) the game versus the times that people don't know how to play against it?
Just asking because from a bit of testing on my end, Decks like Miracles or Sneak and Show, don't have great problems with the card, but usually people don't know how to play against it.
Still I love the card, would just run a split between chains and library(would also run the combo with this configuration).
I actually like the 2nd basic a lot, however I really dislike going below 6 fetches since our color requirements are very specific at times.
You will, as soon as True Name Nemesis decks die out a bit. When he was big people were playing Deluge/Charm main, then it died out and got cut.Quote:
I will never again play loam without a deluge in the main.
(...)
2x Swords to Plowshares
You really don't need it main against D&T.
Sword to plowshares were added to fight against decks where Chalices were boarded out(Shardless/D&T/Infect). During mkm Frankfurt we realised that they were better than expected against decks where we also wanted chalice since either we have 3 dead cards vs their 30, or we have efficient removal.
Against eldrazi you can probably win the matchup with your Main only since it is so loopsided.
You only lose to broken openings Mimic->TKS->Smasher with only sol lands and you still have game against that.
Still prefer Canonist over Thalia, but to each their own.
Not sure where you got the impression that Chandra was there to fight moon decks... It is a grindy card for grindy matchups(Miracles in particular).Quote:
Turns out that swamp means you just don't need chandra to fight through the moon decks so you can open it up to a broader range of interests.
Don't really agree with this and would ask everyone on the thread(me included) to not put big statements like this since it can mess up new players.Quote:
1x Maelstrom Pulse
Don't play this deck without one of these in your 75 somewhere.
Pulse never was a staple of the deck and if I am not mistaken, it was never part of a winning decklist of a major tournament.
PS. Hope this did not come to hard :smile: Only my 2 cents
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I am trying to run a split of 3/1 Wasteland/Ghost Quarter and a split of 3/1 Knight/Tracker to see how is the impact of going down on those cards.
Tracker seems a very good card in the grindy matchups since you can get garanteed value if it resolves(assuming you are casting it t4, as you should)
The split on wastelands is to check if Ghost Quarter is very bad in the matchups that we only want wastelands. Don't think we have space on the sideboard to run it without leaving too many matchups on the down swing.
Correct me if I'm missing something here, but why would you ever board out Chalice against Infect? Like half of the cards in that deck are CMC 1.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilhas
You would not board it out(my bad on the writing), but it was one of the decks that we originally talked about when considering swords.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ephemeron
PS. Fun fact! It was also the tournament where the crop rotation package(Crop+Tabernacle+bojukabog) was tested and Chandra, Flame Caller(I think).
Thanks for the post, Wild_Island_Appeared. Not a lot of people stray too far away from Kronberger's or Mats' lists, which is kind of a shame, so I don't mean this to be critical in that way.
About the Chains, despite what you say you cut for them, the closest analog in the deck is Sylvan Library (Mats only plays one, but plenty off ppl myself included play 2). I've tried to squeeze chains into the deck multiple times, but at the end of the day it for me it always came down to:
"Do I want to potentially screw over my opponent, or do I want to consistently improve my gameplan?" Library just works with the deck so well, it is somewhere between a Sensei's Divining Top, and a Necro. I don't think I've ever seen someone lose a midrange matchup with on in play.
The places where chains is better than Library is with combo decks, but I think they are a small enough percentage of the field that we can solve them with the sideboard. Plus, Chains messes up our cycle lands
SB:
Leyline: If you are going below 3 and talking about hardcasting it, then just play something that costs less than 4 mana. Surgical, RIP, Containment Priest, Cage, Nihil Spell Bomb, whatever.
STP: already talked about. Good in just about every matchup where chalice is bad.
Thalia: Canonist is not strictly better against storm. 2xIsland+fetch lets ANT players Ponder + brainstorm in 1 turn cycle through Canonist. Thalia stops this. It also costs 3 mana to decay Thalia. Canonist is better for Omni, Elves, and Aluren, while Thalia is better against Miracles and Show&Tell, ANT, etc.
Charm: Do you actually find yourself needing a third of this effect after the 2 Deluge? I've been on a mini-crusade to get ppl to upgrade charm to a second deluge
Maelstrom Pulse: I think "I have to answer everything" is the wrong mindset to have. Some decks will just have cards you can't interact with well, and the solution there is being proactive, rather than trying to draw a 1of out. I've found that most of the cards I used to needs Pulse for, STP does the job for a third of the mana and one fewer slot.
@ Pilhas
I find it difficult to tell exactly how many times chains actively won me the game. After its in play your opponent simply won't play their brainstorms and will only play ponder if they get desperate and opponents rarely reveal their hands at the end of a game so I admit it is very difficult to tell whether the tech shut them down or they flooded out but I will say that my personal win % against Miracles and Leo BUG has gone up since making the changes. I agree that I feel myself wanting library back but the 75 of this deck is insanely crowded, currently I'm thinking to cut the last golgari charm and move a chains to the board to free up the mainboard library slot.
I agree that going lower than 6 fetches does make your mana slightly harder to control but I've found that if you are just very careful about what lands you go get and give a strong bias to getting black you come out ok. I think the swamp is worth more than the last fetch and I don't feel any of the other lands are particularly negotiable.
You might be right and I'm wearing the rose colored glasses looking at Deluge through the lens of a TNN format but the amount of success and blowouts I've gotten in game 1s in fair matchups outside of TNN is really high. Having a reset button for the board state is something this deck doesn't usually have access to and I really enjoy it.
I have struggled with the Eldrazi matchup more so than other Loam players unfortunately. I'm not sure exactly what my errors have been so far but I feel like they always have the t2 tknot to punish. Originally I suspected that strong wasteland hands were the key and yet they seem to keep land heavy hands in the matchup. I''d love to hear your breakdown of this matchup.
I got the idea that Chandra was for moon decks from Mats stream, hes said something along those lines about the card multiple times. Honestly her mana cost is pretty restrictive for this deck and while she is a good grind card I was finding myself leaving her in the board against all the daze decks and not bringing her into the DnT or Eldrazi matchups where she was easily stranded by a wasteland so I just didn't feel like the slot was giving me enough mileage, again I'd love to hear your breakdown on Chandra.
I am surprised to hear that pulse is not ubiquitous across all loam players. I have always played 1 and have done so to devastating effect. I agree that we want to be proactive but the card has so many uses (especially post board when people bring in their hate) that I never really considered playing without it.
@apocolypse
I do find myself wanting my library back but initially I wanted to draw chains as much as possible in order to grade its effectiveness to which it has done by a substantial degree. Currently I'm thinking I plan on cutting my golgari charm from my board and moving a chains to the board to free up a library slot.
As to the canonist thalia debate I wanted as much power as I could get vs the largest share of the meta. With Miracles always at the top end of metagame share and sneak and show climbing back up the ranks recently I am very comfortable choosing thalia as omnishow is just a nightmare matchup regardless and our elves and aluren matchups are already pretty good.
About pulse its funny, I've had the exact opposite experience with it. I always find it killing a jace, a griselbrand, an empty the warrens, or pithing needles all of which are either not something stp can handle or in the case of griseldaddy doesn't allow them to draw an extra 7 without significant risk.
Regardless I am 100% with you on your crusade to get loam players to use 2 deluge in the 75. That card is bonkers.
Chains-Library: I get that the list was meant to test chains, and when I was thinking of playing chains I envisioned it as a 2of in the sideboard. The other reason I talk about library here is one turns off the other. Any time we are boarding in chains, we want to board out library. And I don't think I've sold ppl on just how good green necro is, but even against decks like storm I almost prefer library (it draws us very well to other hate cards)
Thalia-Canonist: I'm in agreement with you here. There has been an uptick in Aluren and a downtick in ANT locally so I was considering a swap, but I'm generally firmly in the Thalia camp.
Eldrazi usually can't beat an established knight. I had a game log for a while and looking at the eldrazi games, almost all of the wins mention Knight or the combo.
Its actually cards like Thalia that make me feel the need for pulse less. I replied to Mats on the last page about this very thing, and showed a video where constant disruptive pressure made it impossible for my miracles opponent to get value off of a Mentor (Jace would have fared the same)
Most Eldrazi can't beat a knight however playing out a quick knight runs the risk of dismember and a safe knight runs the risk of getting endbringer locked. Both of these are just 2 ofs so maybe I'm overblowing it but it certainly feels closer than this community makes me feel it should be.
I feel Canonist is better in the matchups you're losing to, and can actually beat. I don't see myself beating s&t anymore, as any experienced s&t player should beat you, most of the time even if i had an extra 4-5 slots in the sideboard. So even tho i don't like to give up matchups, i feel like this one is to hard to actually win. So what matchups are Thalia clearly better then Canonist in, sure s&t, and maybe that is a good reason to run her over Canonist, and sure she is also better vs miracles, i won't argue With that. The two Creatures attack ANT in very diffrent ways so i think it's hard to say one is clearly better, but Thalia is probably better vs TES. Like is so much easier to hold up golgari charm for regeneration vs ANT with Canonist, a play that have won me sevral games vs ANT. Also Thalia is probably much better vs burn. Canonist makes the elves matchup better, help vs Aluren/Food Chain, and also does some work vs burn/infect.Quote:
Originally Posted by apocolyps6
As i have said before i don't feel i need Thalia in the miracles matchup, and i don't doubt that she hinders them more then us, but at what price. Sure she might tax them, but from the game i saw, you put yourself in a position i don't want to be in vs miracles, were you have sevral creatures on the board and a terminus would be a blowout. I also don't feel safe behind chalice, as an EOT wear/tear into a cantrip and then terminus usually just means game over. You also kind of have to chain creatures like i talked about earlier. And i'm not really looking to keeping a creature heavy hand post board. So yes, Thalia probably is good vs miracles, but it doesn't do anything for my gameplan vs miracles, and you only have so many cardslots so i feel like i would have to take out a card i would rather have. Not saying this is the best way to play, but it's working very well for me so i don't really see any reason to stop playing the matchup the way i do.
Chandra might be the card i sideboard in the most, it's basicly good in evry grindy matchup, and since i side in more removal vs delver decks, they also become grindier. So she comes in against, Dnt, delver deck, miracles, stompy, mavrick and eldrazi among others. You are correct that i said i wanted something that was good aginst blood moon, but as with evry sideboard card, it needs to work against more then one deck, otherwise it's not worth the spot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild_Island_Appeared
I also find the elves matchup to be pretty even, and the aluren matchup to be unfavored game one atleast, so that might add to why i feel Canonist is better.
On the toxic vs charm debate, i would much rather have the 2nd charm, it does so much work vs diffrent decks. vs Death and taxes beeing able to have two extra Cards to remove rest in peace with is big as most of the time charm for -1/-1 wins the game even if they have a creature or two left. Against ANT regging Your creatures can be game winning, and it also makes sure you have more ways to deal with goblins. In the burn matchup it's both a way to reg Knight in some games, and deals with a lot of their stuff aswell, including eidolon. I usually side in 1 vs Miracles two if they are very enchantment heavy. It makes the enchantress matchup far better. In some rare games you can even get games of Omni with Canonist into charm. Also regeneration vs deed decks is Nice. Toxic is better in some matches, don't get me wrong, but I think charm is a far stornger sideboard card. Again as usual, I might be wrong on evrything.
Could not put my thoughts on the Canonist vs Thalia better, so thank you for that.Quote:
Originally Posted by MatsOle
Can you tell me if you bring Chandra against all Delvers? or only BUG?
What is your typical sideboard against delver?
I usually just cut a couple of chalice+teeg for more removal versus BUG and Teeg for sweeper against Grixis.
That sounds like a reasonable sideboard plan to me, on the draw against bug I wouldn't even bother with chalice since it's too easy for them to get under it and/or blow it up. On the play a couple of chalice is reasonable though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilhas
My testing has suggested that Chandra isn't as good against Grixis as it is against BUG (as you probably suspect) but it's still worth bringing it. The games are still super grindy and if you can stick it on a board with any semblance of parity, it becomes a must answer threat because it can run away with a game super fast if left unchecked.
I will test it out, but its weird to bring a 4 mana card on the draw against a daze deck, and on the play you probably don't take all chalices.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ephemeron
Honestly, Maelstrom Pulse has proven to be invaluable to me as a singleton in my board.
The utility of a spell that can handle any trouble permanent in a topdeck war, in my opinion, cannot be overstated.
The card is certainly not as efficient as the STP board plan, though a removal spell that can hit all of; JTMS, Leyline of the Void and Griselbrand is certainly worth consideration.
@apocolyps6
I'm not sure that the mentality of "I must answer everything" is really my approach to pulse as a card. I think of the card more in the vein of "the span of problem permanents that I might face on t2 is too broad for me to justify narrow answers".
I think this point we are arguing is pretty small. I've played a Pulse in my board in the past, and I might again one day. IMO having 1of non-tutorables in a non-blue deck isn't great for consistency but that is sort of a "deckbuilding theory" argument.
Looking at your examples:
JTMS - I try never to leave my board so empty that I can't attack a Jace. Otherwise the less clean method of Pfire does the trick.
Leyline - This thing I ignore in 90% of my games. I take the loss of a loam and just beat the opponent with the rest of the deck. I also have a pridemage in the main if I do care.
Griz - If you don't have the grave hate or the karakas/maze its usually too late to resolve 3 mana removal
What I meant by that statement is that you are choosing play patterns that make those cards a pattern for you. Whenever my opponent has a good Jace/leyline it is because they are already winning and that card pushes them over the edge. Most of the time I don't need anything special to deal with it. Griz I also strongly prefer to fight in a way that does not play into Force
I guess we are straying into the realm of semantics, though It's an interesting thought experiment.
You've convinced me to give pridemage a go in the same slot, I'll see how we go with that.
I'm going to a small Legacy event this Sunday, and I'm going to give Aggro loam a whirl - now I've not really played the deck before, only dabbled around testing with a friend - no tournemant setting. Just posting up here if any of you guys have any suggestions for a new loam player and what you think of the list I'm taking - does it need any desperate modifications?
I know a decent amount of what the metagame will be as I have played in the store before with other decks, it's normally along the line of :
2/3 Miracles
1 Sneak and Show
1 Maverick
2/3 Shardless
2/3 BUG Midrange
2 Grixis Delver
2 UR Delver
3 DnT
1 ANT
1 Nic Fit
Here's my list I'm working with at the moment:
Mainboard:
Lands (26):
2 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Taiga
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacomb
2 Windswept Heath
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Cabal Pit
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Wasteland
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Barren Moor
Creatures (11):
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
Spells (23):
4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
2 Life From the Loam
2 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sylvan Library
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Toxic Deluge
Sideboard:
1 Choke
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Ghost Quarter
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Kolaghan's Command
3 Leyline of the Void
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Swords to PLowshares
1 Toxic Deluge
Maindeck looks generic enough. I like the specialty land package you have.
Not in love with the sideboard Ghost Quarter but it can be useful. Against that field I think you could cut it. Abrupt Decay, Golgari Charm, Krosan Grip (SDT, Omni, equipment, Deed), Swords would be good. Sudden Shock even (DRS, Mother). I'd side towards Grip or Charm for the enchantment removal, since you have a ton of creature wipes - Deluge main and board, Tabernacle, and lots of targeted removal.
I'm not sure convinced you need the Leylines, but something random could come along and it's your only dedicated grave hate. Could supplement with combo hate instead (Thalia, Thoughtseize) that still hits the grave dependent decks you know of (ANT).
Main advice would be that you're not Lands, so don't be aggressively Loaming unless you have something you're actively planning on doing (Wasteland, cycling, Cabal Pit). Your deck doesn't need Loam to play its game. You only need to Loam in desperation if you're needing to get a certain land to not lose the next turn (Maze, Pit, Karakas).
I'm wanting to keep the leylines in I think as reanimator can crop up from time to time at that place - and I believe as you said it's just useful to have GY hate in the board somewhere.
I love the sound of sudden shock, as an avid user and lover of sudden shock I'm disappointed with myself as I didn't think of it!
I'm not sure how I feel about Kolaghan's command though, what matchups is it useful for? I like it as an all round utility card but I'm not sure what I want to be bringing it in against. but that's my biggest issue at the moment, I'm not sure really what I should be boarding for specific matchups.
So I'm thinking of revising the board to something like so:
1 Choke
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Garruk Relentless
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Kolaghan's Command
3 Leyline of the Void
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Sudden Shock
I would say this is an amazing field for it, i would bring it in against 2/3 of the decks listed above.Quote:
Originally Posted by Claymore
Yeah, some are good, but my thought was that it was Wasteland seemed it could pull most of the weight:
2/3 Miracles - No
1 Sneak and Show - No, lots of basics
1 Maverick - They run 3-4 basics and mana dorks
2/3 Shardless - Yes, but no basics
2/3 BUG Midrange - Yes, no basics
2 Grixis Delver - Yes, but no basics
2 UR Delver - No, lots of basics
3 DnT - No
1 ANT - Risky, I'd say no
1 Nic Fit - No
I always felt the sweet spot is a slow/mid range deck that can rely on 2 basics to not get Wastelocked. Of the ones here, I think most just have no basics anyway. It's a good effect but didn't seem strong enough against the field overall. You'd be hinging on using it against Shardless or BUG midrange.
I guess the other option is to use it as Wasteland #5, which could work well against the BUG decks.