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He was lackluster in my testing... He requires a pretty favorable board position to do anything (because he reads 'other goblins'). And the decks that are weak to Blood Moon don't typically require something to punch through damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by GAMEster52
But give him a try and let me know if you find different!
SPOILER ALERT = RISK FACTOR
I think we have a new card to test : definitely think this card draw can be amazing...
Also Jump Start... Looks like Combustible gear hulk without the creature.
I am excited: we need Karn now for card draw, this card might change this.
Also is an instant and not sorcery, three mana cost is easy with our mana base!
http://mythicspoiler.com/grn/cards/riskfactor.html
These types of cards have a history of being weak at best. Browbeat saw some play in Burn but even there, it was always questionable. Fact is, we aren't pressuring enemy life total enough: they will be able to afford to take 4-8 a significant amount of the time which turns this from a card advantage engine to a weak threat that they don't need to answer. Thus...I'm sceptical.Quote:
Originally Posted by megaflippo
After a series of heartbreakers in the Legacy Leagues on MTGO convinced me I am not currently good enough to win with the delver decks (I've been trying to get back in Legacy after a long drought), and with the amount of discard in the meta making my other favorite, Omni-Tell, unplayable, I decided to give this deck a whirl. I chose Mengucci' list, which I felt was well balanced between prison and aggro: https://www.channelfireball.com/vide...el-mengucci-2/. The only change I made was to replace one Abrade by another Trinisphere, as Miracle is rather prevalent on MTGO, and I'm still not sure about the remaining Abrade.
I met one Miracle, 2 UB Deathshadow, and 2 Storm/ANT. Not exactly a varied gauntlet, but the results were excellent: I went 4-1, losing a heartbreaker to Storm. In the last game, they had ANT'ed down to 2 life and passed the turn. I had Fiery Confluence and a Mox in hand, but no other red card and only one red on the field. Any red card or mountain would have clinched the win, and a Chalice or a Trinisphere might have done the trick too, but it was not to be.
Still, I was delighted with how the deck performed. Versus Deathshadow, the deck is just a beating. Turn 1 Blood Moon on the play has lead to insta-concede on two occasions. Beyond that, the threat of Blood Moon, Chalice, Trinisphere, conjugated to the fact they lower they life and then have to face Fiery Confluence or Chandra is a beating. Rabblemaster is formidable weapon against them, as they can't afford this type of clock. With the deck being so pervasive online due to its cheap cost, Red Prison is well placed to abuse their strategies.
Miracle felt a lot closer, and while I went 2-0, I can't help but feel I was lucky. Strangely, an early Blood Moon still hurts them a lot: they might play a lot of basics, but they still fetch for them, and it's a mana-hungry deck. I'm not sure if it's worth leaving 8 Blood Moon-type of effects in, but I did keep my opponent off Jace in our second game. Scab-Clan Beserker did an amazing job off the sideboard: it felt like a soft-lock, darn if you do, darn if you don't. But again, I won both games on the back of Rabblemaster, and I don't see myself playing without it. I just don't feel this is a deck that can be played for too long a stretch without putting down a threat, the locks are not that strong, especially against Miracles.
I'm really looking forward playing this deck more. I guess I will regret the choice when I'll meet Sneak and Tell and Reanimator, but it has a nice balance of putting extremely strong cards on the table turn 1 and 2, while still not feeling like it's just a gimmick. You still need to know your opponent's outs, you're still figuring out the best lines of play. All in all, it's a pleasure to play, and I'm really surprised it hasn't been picked up more.
Edit: after taking a few Swords of Fire and Ice in my face, I'm not questioning the need for 2 Abrades anymore...
If you have a moon out, and if you have a moggcatcher out to search for him, you have already won the game. It provides almost nothing. If you need to push through 1 blocker, get stingscourger. If you need to push through many blockers, just set up seige gang and kiki and go over and around them.Quote:
Originally Posted by GAMEster52
Well, I did manage to go 5-0 once in a league, although it felt in great part due to the strength of the deck, as I’m still making a lot of mistakes. Still, it felt great after a few 2-3’s. I would have some questions if someone with more experience can tell me:
- If you have the choice between a turn 1 Chalice on 1 and Blood Moon, what’s the correct choice when blind on the play in the first game? Blood Moon seems stronger overall, but when it does nothing, I often regret having slowed down my own mana...
- Do you leave Blood Moon in against Miracles? It still feels strong when played early, but it’s a horrible draw afterwards, I’m really not sure if it’s worth it.
- My matchup against Reanimator feels horrible. Blood Moon does very little, Ensnaring Bridge is fodder to a Tidespout and Wear and Tear, Iona is a better prison piece than any of mine, and I usually only win when my opponent makes a mistake (like going down to 6 or else with Griselbrand and taking a Confluence to the face). I have 5 SB cards against them (4 Faerie Macabre and a Surgical), but that’s just standard hate. Any advice would be welcome...
I go for the Chalice on 1, especially on the play and in the blind. Reason behind this: moon T1 has indeed bitten me in the ass more often and slowing ourself down is not so great (as you already stated).Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfy
I leave 1 moon in and side the rest out for Spyglasses and/or PW's. The new lists of Miracles play so many basics that it is more negative for us then for them. So extra kills and a faster way to deploy the threats and lock pieces are better (My 5 cents)Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfy
Just accept it is a horrible MU (especially the UB lists) and move along. You can't win 'em all all the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfy
Ok, thanks for the answer! Good to know I’m not completely off, although I wished that was not true for Reanimator... :wink:
Just curious, as someone new to this deck, what are our best and worst matchups these days?Quote:
Originally Posted by Darklingske
As far as I'm concerned, the new crop of UB Delver is the best matchup right now: they play no or few basics, tons of one drops for Chalice, have few ways to remove prison cards, and they hurt themselves "naturally" and so fall prey to easy Fiery Confluence victories. The rest of the Delver decks are also very good matchups, despite the main deck Kholaghan Commands main deck in the Grixis version.Quote:
Originally Posted by Miscanthus
I assume Lands and Turbo Depth are also very good matchups, although strangely enough, I haven't met a single one since I picked the deck up.
On the other extreme of the spectrum, I would put those combo decks that are not hampered by Blood Moon effects: Reanimator, Omnitell, and some versions of Storm. Obviously Ensnaring Bridge is really good against Reanimator and Omnitell, but even if you draw it, it only lasts so long, and I have found it difficult to kill them fast enough at times even with good top-decks on my side. The reason Reanimator is the worst is that they have a "natural" out in the form of Tidespout Tyran, a card that both fits they're main plan and destroys ours. Basically, you hope you get a chance to exile it or that they never see it nor an Entomb.
I'll let more experienced players confirm or infirm.
Thanks for the response.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfy
Curious about the storm assessment though. From my own experiences as a storm player, and from others I've spoken with, this deck is generally considered a tough matchup for storm. Have your experiences been different?
Matchups against storm decks that don’t mind Blood Moon, like the newer crops of mono red Bonus Round storm decks, are going to come down to just a few pieces, namely Chalice and Trinisphere, and Scab Clan Berserker out of the side board. In my case, I only run 2 Trinispheres, so it’s really up to Chalice to slow them down.
I actually had a few such matchups, and it’s really an issue of speed: even with one Chalice down, I usually don’t kill them fast enough, they find an Abrade and it’s game over. It’s especially true when I have to mulligan to get that Chalice. If I do manage to get 2 pieces of hate down, then I usually end up winning.
I found it much easier to stop the more common crop of Grixis Storm decks. Chalice is still a key piece, especially on 0, but Blood Moon still makes it more difficult for them to use their blue cards when comboing off. Also, there are cases where they can’t finish their combo in one turn after an ANT and pass the turn thinking they will finish you off next turn, but came in range of a Fiery Confluence.
Anyone excited about the Legion Warboss? Is a second set of Goblin Rabblemaster worth having in order to up aggression? Or do we really just want that second angle of attack from Pia and Haz?
Lands
11 x Mountain
4 x Ancient Tomb
4 x City of Traitors
Creatures
4 x Goblin Rabblemaster
2 x Legion Warboss
4 x Simian Spirit Guide
4 x Magus of the Moon
Spells
4 x Chrome Mox
4 x Chalice of the Void
4 x Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4 x Blood Moon
4 x Fiery Confluence
4 x Ensnaring Bridge
3 x Trinisphere
Sideboard
3 x Scab-Clan Berserker
2 x Kozilek’s Return
2 x Sulfur Elemental
2 x Sorcerous Spyglass
2 x Abrade
2 x Surgical Extraction
2 x Tormod's Crypt
Legion warboss is certainly a fine card, and now that the deck is soft to planeswalkers (thanks wizards for nerfing hazoret, chandra and fiery confluence), having a more aggressive stance might be good. A couple years ago i was playing with 4 rabblemaster and 4 hanweir garrison, and warboss is probably an upgrade to garrison (unless you're playing against punisging fire that then completely wrecks you).
I want to play a more aggressive build and move the bridges to the board. I'm thinking for the agressive creatures: 4 rabble, 4 Leigon warboss, 2 hazoret. What would be another good agressive 3 cmc ?
Another good 3cmc agressor is 'Captain Lannery Storm' = gets your mana up to play a spell more easily next turn, also haste and the treasure tokens work well with Karn tokens = makes them bigger.Quote:
Originally Posted by mr-x
U can even consider splashing another color thanks to the 'mana of any color'.
U can even threaten to make himself bigger with the +1/0 effect and take down a bigger creature...
When I play it: often gets rid of a Jace TMS or Liliana on the other side of the board.
Other options:Quote:
Originally Posted by mr-x
- Rampaging Ferocidon
- Sin Prodder
- Stromkirk Occultist
- Sulfur Elemental (more of a sideboard option)
- Taurean Mauler (used to be played in this deck, but probably not good enough anymore)
- Gathan Raiders (same problem)
- Satyr Nyx-Smith (probably too cute)
- Pia Nalaar (not sure about this one, seems a tad slow)
First some context. I've piloted moon prison to two top 8s before the DRS restriction so now I'm naturally a little sad that it is not so well positioned in the current meta anymore. I've been thinking of Legion Warboss in a goblin list. Something like:
//Lands+Mana Sources
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Cavern of Souls
3 Chrome Mox
4 City of Traitors
8 Mountain
4 Simian Spirit Guide
//Creatures
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
3 Goblin Cratermaker
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Goblin Thrashmaster
4 Legion Warboss
4 Moggcatcher
1 Stingscourger
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Goblin Chainwhirler
//Planeswalker
3 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
//Other
4 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Trinisphere
The list is totally untested, any ideas or suggestions?
My two immediate reactions are:Quote:
Originally Posted by arj
Moon Stompy without Magus??You are a bit light on mana sources, specifically fast mana.
I'd find room for the 4th Chrome Mox. The Chandras probably belong in the sideboard for control matchups.
I personally also no longer like Cavern of Souls in Blood Moon lists, since the rules change.
Thanks for the feedback.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew
Yeah, I'll probably make room for the last Chrome Mox. I checked my older control lists of they have 1 more mana source at 27.
Magus is really lackluster atm. The top 2 decks at the last turney was Miracles and DnT.
I have contemplating trying out lightning greaves. It has always positively suprised me when I added it to other lists and it seems really good with moggcatcher.