Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Stuart
Welcome to brown! Tip #1: buy your City of Traitors ASAP. Thanks to Eldrazi Stompy and Eternal Masters, they will keep going up.
I haven't played Legends MUD, but my impression is that it beats up the midrange/creature decks running around right now. However, I would suggest starting off with traditional MUD: it might not be as good in this meta, but it's probably more flexible in the longterm.
I wouldn't personally run Ensnaring Bridge in traditional MUD, but it's not out of the question. Ugin lets you play over your own Bridges, while Spine/Forgemaster give you a way of getting rid of your Bridge when you're ready to swing. A few days ago I'd speculated that Wurmcoil would be good anti-Eldrazi tech without messing up our build, but I dunno if anyone's really played that out or not (you can see MGB decided against it).
Thank you! Yes, I was all over that right after Eternal Masters was announced. Fortunately, I got the necessary cards before prices jumped too high. I got 2 City of Traitors last year at around $60, the other 2 I got at $80 - right before it jumped to over $100. I also have the Grim Monoliths, Metalworkers, and Mox Diamonds (just in case I care to give Stax a try down the line).
I'm working on getting the other pieces. I'm not sure waiting on Eternal Masters to reprint cards is the right move, so I'll be completing my playset of Chalice of the Void this weekend.
I think I will be taking your advice and trying out the classic build for now - I do have the Metalworkers after all. I also agree, Wurmcoil Engine is an excellent place to start with the Eldrazi match-up, that'll probably be a 4-of. One of the other posters mentioned Platinum Emperion - that seems pretty good too. Classic MUD has tools to fight those decks, no doubt about that.
Thanks very much for responding so quickly!
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Drake0525
Thank you! Yes, I was all over that right after Eternal Masters was announced. Fortunately, I got the necessary cards before prices jumped too high. I got 2 City of Traitors last year at around $60, the other 2 I got at $80 - right before it jumped to over $100. I also have the Grim Monoliths, Metalworkers, and Mox Diamonds (just in case I care to give Stax a try down the line).
I'm working on getting the other pieces. I'm not sure waiting on Eternal Masters to reprint cards is the right move, so I'll be completing my playset of Chalice of the Void this weekend.
I think I will be taking your advice and trying out the classic build for now - I do have the Metalworkers after all. I also agree, Wurmcoil Engine is an excellent place to start with the Eldrazi match-up, that'll probably be a 4-of. One of the other posters mentioned Platinum Emperion - that seems pretty good too. Classic MUD has tools to fight those decks, no doubt about that.
Thanks very much for responding so quickly!
I'm not sure, but, could a possible/probable ban in modern on Eldrazi take down the price of Chalice of the Void in the near future? I guess some people will let go of these if this might happen.
On the other hand, a possible ban in modern might turn more people to legacy with their Eldrazi decks. Hmm.... interesting times :cool:
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
After SCG Philly, and not doing well with MUD, and watching Eldrazi beat all the blue decks with relative ease, I'm kind of wondering if playing traditional MUD is even worthwhile. Is Eldrazi Stompy just a better MUD at this point? It might be.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MGB
After SCG Philly, and not doing well with MUD, and watching Eldrazi beat all the blue decks with relative ease, I'm kind of wondering if playing traditional MUD is even worthwhile. Is Eldrazi Stompy just a better MUD at this point? It might be.
In my opinion yes but I've only played MUD casually over the years as a change of pace deck.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MGB
After SCG Philly, and not doing well with MUD, and watching Eldrazi beat all the blue decks with relative ease, I'm kind of wondering if playing traditional MUD is even worthwhile. Is Eldrazi Stompy just a better MUD at this point? It might be.
This isn't as black and white as you make it sound.
Is Eldrazi a better deck than MUD. Short answer, No.
Long answer, these are 2 COMPLETELY different decks. MUD is trying to Lock a homie out of the game with Chalice/3 Ball and Cast big titans like Ugin and Blightsteel on the cheap. The Eldrazi deck is trying to Drop a challice and trying to aggro someone within the first couple turns. What i've discovered is the Eldrazi deck is a quicker deck than MUD and although they seem similar because they play chalice & sol lands. Each deck has its own MU's that they're extremely good at. Someone drops a Blood Moon against mud and life goes on. Someone drops a blood moon against Eldrazi and we're going to game 2. Consistency has always been MUD's biggest weakness and the eldrazi deck appears to be a little more consistent against FOW decks because Caverns aren't naming, Golem, Construct... etc.
Honestly, i think either deck is just fine, but once the meta shifts to deal with the eldrazi decks more, you'll see another uptick in MUD's popularity.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MGB
After SCG Philly, and not doing well with MUD, and watching Eldrazi beat all the blue decks with relative ease, I'm kind of wondering if playing traditional MUD is even worthwhile. Is Eldrazi Stompy just a better MUD at this point? It might be.
I shared my opinions about this on last page, so I guess I won't post them again. In short, though, I agree with Potatodavid that:
1) there are still reasons to play MUD,
2) you have to pick the deck that appeals to you, and
3) it might be beneficial to wait for the dust to settle.
That said, I do have some concerns that with Eldrazi becoming a real contender, there will be a lot of hate floating around that will weaken us, too.
Also, I thought you were on the Legends build at SCG?
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Stuart
I shared my opinions about this on last page, so I guess I won't post them again. In short, though, I agree with Potatodavid that:
1) there are still reasons to play MUD,
2) you have to pick the deck that appeals to you, and
3) it might be beneficial to wait for the dust to settle.
That said, I do have some concerns that with Eldrazi becoming a real contender, there will be a lot of hate floating around that will weaken us, too.
Also, I thought you were on the Legends build at SCG?
I'm not sure about the hate. They are silver, we are brown :wink:
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Comparing Eldrazi to MUD is a bit disingenuous because they are inherently different decks. Heck, even in this MUD thread, I can think of a dozen inherently different builds. From Fry’s Welder shenanigans to Airwave’s Ensnaring Bridge + Bottled Cloister control strategy to bruizar’s Godo build to Greg Price’s 12 Post build (most common). All of which are fairly non-linear artifact-based ramp decks. All of which revolves around to abuse one card: Metalworker, the card that separates us from our sister decks: 12-Post and Nic Fit. This is also why MUD Stax and Steel Stompy have their own separate threads, the lack of need or want for Metalworker.
Eldrazi Stompy is more in line with other prison stompy decks, such as Dragon Stompy, Faerie Stompy, or Angel Stompy. These are decks that wants to soft-lock their opponents and kill them quickly with threats before their opponent can react or recover. The only MUD build that is a fair comparison to Eldrazi Stompy is Fropper’s MUD Strompy build. Of the prison stompy decks, I do think Eldrazi Stompy is currently the best. The reason is because Eldrazi Stompy do not rely on mana rocks or fast mana to play their threats quickly, which means they have more live draws. Eldrazi decks have bigger, better, faster threats compared to the other stompy decks. Eye of Ugin in particular is what pushes the deck over the edge. By itself, Eye of Ugin often produces anywhere from two to six mana a turn, and more with Urborg in play. It can even search for more threats when out of gas.
If you want to play a prison stompy deck, or a deck that is most similar to Aggro Shops of Vintage, I think Eldrazi Stompy is the clear winner. If you want to play a ramp deck that has a better mid-to-late game, a potential explosive early game, and potential backbreaking silver bullets, then Metalworker is a better fit.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Ok, let me rephrase the question:
Is Eldrazi Aggro the better Chalice of the Void / Ancient Tomb deck in the format right now?
Because the #1 reason to play MUD was simply to play Chalice of the Void + Ancient Tomb. It just so happened that MUD, up til this point, was probably the best Chalice of the Void + Ancient Tomb deck. Now we have to ask ourselves, if we want to play a Chalice of the Void + Ancient Tomb deck, if just playing Eldrazi is better than playing MUD's motley assortment of creatures.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Maybe Stax is the right build for this meta?
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
l33twash0r
Maybe Stax is the right build for this meta?
That actually did occur to me. They have a lot of stuff going on that looks like it would punish the Eldrazi decks - such as Crucible of Worlds, Ensnaring Bridge, Rishadan Port, Smokestack.
Since I'm just getting started with my shiny new Sol Lands, I might be too new to this type of deck to test Stax out properly. Of course, if Stax does prove effective against Eldrazi, the next question would be how effective is Stax against the rest of the field?
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Hey all,
Bob Huang here. I played MUD at SCG Philly and went a disappointing 3-3. Before that though, I cashed 4 consecutive tournaments with "Portal MUD"
I had two lists:
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Vesuva
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
4 Metalworker
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Sundering Titan
1 Duplicant
4 Grim Monolith
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Trinisphere
2 Coercive Portal
3 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Platinum Emperion
SB: 2 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 4 Faerie Macabre
SB: 2 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 2 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Contagion Engine
SB: 2 Coercive Portal
2 Steel Hellkite
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
4 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
3 Coercive Portal
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
2 Trinisphere
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
4 Wasteland
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Warping Wail
1 Batterskull
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 2 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 2 Karakas
SB: 4 Faerie Macabre
SB: 2 Sundering Titan
SB: 1 Coercive Portal
I had great results beating the top tier decks (Miracles, Shardless, D&T, ANT) but the metagame has shifted and people are beginning to play cards like Hurkyl's Recall so I am off the deck. Just wanted to share in case people want to try my lists. Portal is the real deal, it single-handedly beats up on grindy decks. Delver match-ups are iffy, but a Wurmcoil is usually enough to win or buy enough time to get another stupid idiot down. Eldrazi match-up is also iffy, they can TKS your pay-off card and kill you quick, but a resolved Wurmcoil is usually enough there too.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
akatsuki, Did you try the Legend MUD list that plays 4 Coercive Portal MD and is less vulnerable to Hurkyl's Recall and spot removal? If you like Coercive Portal, that's probably the list that uses it best.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MGB
#1 reason to play MUD was simply to play Chalice of the Void + Ancient Tomb. It just so happened that MUD, up til this point, was probably the best Chalice of the Void + Ancient Tomb deck. Now we have to ask ourselves, if we want to play a Chalice of the Void + Ancient Tomb deck, if just playing Eldrazi is better than playing MUD's motley assortment of creatures.
That has never been a reason to play MUD, and never should be the reason. The reason should be to do degenerate things, Chalice just happens to help that goal come to fruition.
There are other decks that use Sol Lands and Chalice of the Void other than MUD and the new Eldrazi deck, and have been for many years.
If I was to pick up MUD for the next little while I would not be playing a comboesque version because TKS can just wreck an otherwise amazing hand. A Stompy version would be my choice with the redundancy of hulking hunks of metal bashing face. I would still probably use my Darettis though (likely with 2-3 Myr Battlesphere), I love them a lot and they just do so much. I love it when cards are their own combo. For the time being though I am thinking of letting MUD sit for a while and work with my D&T and IT decks, I have a feeling Mangara is getting good again (I love decks with tricks)...
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
akatsuki
Before that though, I cashed 4 consecutive tournaments with "Portal MUD"
Thanks for chiming in, Bob! I didn't expect to see you here - I think of you as a Delver player, for some reason.
Portal is indeed the real deal, and the rest of your list looks cool: just slightly lower to the ground, with a strong manabase. Have you had any problems with the 3 CoT/3 Vesuva split? Those two tend to interact poorly for me . . .
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fry
That has never been a reason to play MUD, and never should be the reason. The reason should be to do degenerate things, Chalice just happens to help that goal come to fruition.
There are other decks that use Sol Lands and Chalice of the Void other than MUD and the new Eldrazi deck, and have been for many years.
If I was to pick up MUD for the next little while I would not be playing a comboesque version because TKS can just wreck an otherwise amazing hand. A Stompy version would be my choice with the redundancy of hulking hunks of metal bashing face. I would still probably use my Darettis though (likely with 2-3 Myr Battlesphere), I love them a lot and they just do so much. I love it when cards are their own combo. For the time being though I am thinking of letting MUD sit for a while and work with my D&T and IT decks, I have a feeling Mangara is getting good again (I love decks with tricks)...
Agreed re. Chalice. It's an amazing turn 1 play, but our plays get more and more ridiculous each subsequent turn.
I'm also letting MUD cool off until I see how this Eldrazi situation shakes out: I don't want to play against Eldrazi-hate, and there might be some lessons to learn about how to improve our decks. Personally, I'm playing Enchantress in the meantime.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
akatsuki
Hey all,
Bob Huang here. I played MUD at SCG Philly and went a disappointing 3-3. Before that though, I cashed 4 consecutive tournaments with "Portal MUD"
I had two lists:
Hello Bob, congrats on the results, it's great to see a highly experienced player take on the archetype. I see the first list is the same Romario is using and probably the best course to take on that meta, with a few modifications. I'm testing with +1-2 lightning greaves and more hellkites, but I'm still unsure on what to cut. My meta isn't infested with eldrazy (yet?) so it's hard to compare data, but it seens going slightly bigger than them might be efficient. For the recall, only the combo version can work, but as stuart said, the legends version is much more resilient to hat. You just toss your hand of mana rocks and cast ugin, karn or ulamog, sometimes more than once a turn. If they recall, you lose a turn, then do it again. The deck plays a bit different from traditional mud, some matches like D&t become much easier, but delver, specially grixis, go from iffy to terrible.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Chris Van Meter published an article to SCG about the Eldrazi deck. One of the things he mentioned was that the some of the Eldrazi decks had success using Jitte to break the mirror match. Is that something we in MUD might be able to try, maybe in the sideboard?
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Drake0525
Chris Van Meter published an article to SCG about the Eldrazi deck. One of the things he mentioned was that the some of the Eldrazi decks had success using Jitte to break the mirror match. Is that something we in MUD might be able to try, maybe in the sideboard?
I'm confident this (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post920070) list will crush them. But haven't tested it yet so I'm not sure. Next to that, I'm not entirely sure how it will perform in this "new" meta though. It's a litte fragile on Wasteland maybe, depending on available artifact boost mana. I guess this list needs one Crucible main nowadays.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Silverflame
The deck plays a bit different from traditional mud, some matches like D&t become much easier, but delver, specially grixis, go from iffy to terrible.
I haven't played against grixis yet, but I did test Legend MUD against RUG and BUG delver, and they didn't feel at all "terrible." BUG actually felt more even to me than traditional MUD because Coercive Portal really helped me recover from getting my hand torn apart by Hymns. RUG still gets hit really hard by Chalice and Trinisphere, and if they're countering those, then they don't have much to stop mana rocks and bombs from being dropped. I need to do a lot more testing for sure, but I really like that our mana accelerators can't be bolted. I imagine U/W/R delver is probably considerably better because their swords to plowshares become much worse, but I recognize that it's probably the least popular delver deck. Maybe MGB can chime in with his delver experienced?
Edit: grammar
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Drake0525
That actually did occur to me. They have a lot of stuff going on that looks like it would punish the Eldrazi decks - such as Crucible of Worlds, Ensnaring Bridge, Rishadan Port, Smokestack.
Since I'm just getting started with my shiny new Sol Lands, I might be too new to this type of deck to test Stax out properly. Of course, if Stax does prove effective against Eldrazi, the next question would be how effective is Stax against the rest of the field?
Stax is still very effective. When you resolve maindeck E.Bridges game 1, a lot of decks just scoop. I played MUD instead of Stax tonight and definitely felt like I should have played stax. My next test is to incorporate Thought-Knot Seer into Stax for more disruption and quicker clock.
