[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

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Originally Posted by nevilshute

Just curious about you boarding out the 2nd PiF vs RUG delver? It remains incredibly strong against them and they have a very limited amount of ways to fight the yard (usually 1-2 cards after board)

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PiF is certainly one of the 2 best strategies against RUG Delver (along with a quick Empty), but I board out the 2nd copy of PiF because I don't find a need to naturally draw it post-SB when I'm not facing the threat of discard. RUG Delver is such a good matchup that I would rather go the conservative route of increasing discard and decreasing the chance I might lose to something annoying like a Grafdigger's Cage. I wouldn't fault anyone for leaving it in, but it's the most conservative cut in my opinion.

@Beardtron - yes I'd always recommend additional ToA. it lowers the life threshold you can kill them with Pillar on the table, also if they scenarios like yours where you can get a lot of time or lock them into multi fireblasting you

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Originally Posted by nevilshute

Just curious about you boarding out the 2nd PiF vs RUG delver? It remains incredibly strong against them and they have a very limited amount of ways to fight the yard (usually 1-2 cards after board)

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also curious about your list/sb, I recall you sported 2gt lists and additional sb discard, I wondering whats your starting point now

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Originally Posted by Sloshthedark

@Beardtron - yes I'd always recommend additional ToA. it lowers the life threshold you can kill them with Pillar on the table, also if they scenarios like yours where you can get a lot of time or lock them into multi fireblasting you



also curious about your list/sb, I recall you sported 2gt lists and additional sb discard, I wondering whats your starting point now

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This is my current list:

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe

4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy

4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual

4 Infernal Tutor
2 Grim Tutor
2 Past in Flames
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony

2 Island
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Bloodstained Mire

SB
1 Tropical Island
3 Xantid Swarm
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Massacre
3 Chain of Vapor
2 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek

What is everyone's thoughts on 2x Dark Petitions? Is it strictly better than one, or is it meta specific?

I know that Patrunkenphat7 and friends have worked out that going from 5 to 6 tutors ups your percentages of finding a tutor by turn 2 significantly. I don't know the math behind this and subsequently can't verify it but that's that.

I would say that running 2 petitions should in theory severely hamper your Ad Nauseam if you are running that in the main deck. And were it not for Caleb Scherer's continuous results with 2x DP, 1 AN lists I would be staunch in that stance.

I'm currently trying out a 1/1 split of Dark Petition / Grim Tutor in order to try the 6-tutor plan but I'm running Ad Nauseam in the sideboard. I like Grim Tutor in builds where you're running main deck Empty the Warrens. If I owned 2 Grim Tutors I'd probably try out 2 Grims, but I only own one and I think Dark Petition is quite excellent too so I'm happy with this split.

I still haven't made up my mind about Dark Petition. But I have to say that I generally seem to value Tutor effects lower than most other players; in my eyes they are the worst actual business spells in the deck. That being said, it is likely correct that you want 6 rather than 5 if your goal is to have one on turn two. Friends of mine did similar math regarding the number of Noble Hierarchs / Deathrite Shamans in Modern Zoo back in the day and came to the conclusion that seven copies maximised your chances of drawing exactly one in your opening hand.
It is also worth noting that the impact of additional high CMC cards on your Ad Nauseams is usually exaggerated. I did a lot of goldfishing on this last year (>100 attempts per configuration) and came to the conclusion that a 2 Ad Nauseam 1 Past in Flames 1 Tendrils 1 Chrome Mox list has better Ad Nauseams than a list that has additional cantrips in place of the second Ad Nauseam and the Mox, despite the fact that the first setup has a literal dead 5 CMC card in the deck.
If you want to improve your Ad Nauseams, you should tweak the amount of non-land initial mana sources in your deck. To be fair though, going to great lengths to improve your Ad Nauseams is rarely worth it, as that's only the case in very specific metagames in which you probably shouldn't even be playing Storm.

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Originally Posted by Jonathan Alexander

I still haven't made up my mind about Dark Petition. But I have to say that I generally seem to value Tutor effects lower than most other players; in my eyes they are the worst actual business spells in the deck. That being said, it is likely correct that you want 6 rather than 5 if your goal is to have one on turn two. Friends of mine did similar math regarding the number of Noble Hierarchs / Deathrite Shamans in Modern Zoo back in the day and came to the conclusion that seven copies maximised your chances of drawing exactly one in your opening hand.
It is also worth noting that the impact of additional high CMC cards on your Ad Nauseams is usually exaggerated. I did a lot of goldfishing on this last year (>100 attempts per configuration) and came to the conclusion that a 2 Ad Nauseam 1 Past in Flames 1 Tendrils 1 Chrome Mox list has better Ad Nauseams than a list that has additional cantrips in place of the second Ad Nauseam and the Mox, despite the fact that the first setup has a literal dead 5 CMC card in the deck.
If you want to improve your Ad Nauseams, you should tweak the amount of non-land initial mana sources in your deck. To be fair though, going to great lengths to improve your Ad Nauseams is rarely worth it, as that's only the case in very specific metagames in which you probably shouldn't even be playing Storm.

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Hey Jonathan. In what storm-hostile meta is an Ad Nauseam centric list preferable in your opinion? What are the characteristics of such a meta? :smile:

Metagames with lots of Reanimator, MUD, 12 Post; decks like that. If there is a huge amount of decks that can lock you of a game, you want to be fast. Also, most importantly, Storm. The storm mirror is miserable and I'd rather play almost any other real deck against Storm. I also think it's preferred against Infect. I used to think it was the best plan against BUG decks as well, but I'd much rather have Empties against Team America.

There are also several decks where it's undoubtedly better to have access to early Ad Nauseams, but the difference is negligible in preboard games.

Dear Stormriders.

Please tell me how do you sb vs Infect? This deck has so many different hatecards like stifle, spell pierce, fow, crop+bojuka, cage, fluster, may be rip and leyline.
Do we need flusters vs cards like envigorate/berserk? I think yes.
Do we need more than 2 decays? I think no.
Do we need need kgrip vs nexuses, leylines, cages, rips? I think no except situations where opp leads or leyline.
Do we have to sbout tops as a slow card?
Do we need to sbin xantid swarm? I think it is slow vs infect so no.
Am i correct?

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Originally Posted by OlegtheSuper

Dear Stormriders.

Please tell me how do you sb vs Infect? This deck has so many different hatecards like stifle, spell pierce, fow, crop+bojuka, cage, fluster, may be rip and leyline.
Do we need flusters vs cards like envigorate/berserk? I think yes.
Do we need more than 2 decays? I think no.
Do we need need kgrip vs nexuses, leylines, cages, rips? I think no except situations where opp leads or leyline.
Do we have to sbout tops as a slow card?
Do we need to sbin xantid swarm? I think it is slow vs infect so no.
Am i correct?

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I find that the matchup is actually quite easy. Their deck sometimes nut draws you, but most of the time, discard allows you to disrupt their combo until you kill them or take their disruption and again kill them. They just rarely have hands that are redundant disruption + combo.

No KGrip, Decay, none of that shit. If they have hatebears, then maybe a Chain or two is fine, but just try to go faster.

My plan is -1 PiF (2 main), -1 Top (1 main), and board in Xantid Swarms. Flusterstorm is ok, but not at the expense of going slower.

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Originally Posted by phazonmutant

I find that the matchup is actually quite easy. Their deck sometimes nut draws you, but most of the time, discard allows you to disrupt their combo until you kill them or take their disruption and again kill them. They just rarely have hands that are redundant disruption + combo.

No KGrip, Decay, none of that shit. If they have hatebears, then maybe a Chain or two is fine, but just try to go faster.

My plan is -1 PiF (2 main), -1 Top (1 main), and board in Xantid Swarms. Flusterstorm is ok, but not at the expense of going slower.

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This, precisely this. I've never seen the sense in bringing in removal against Infect and it feels like a fine match up. Their nut draw kills you on turn 2 with force/daze backup. If they have that then it's likely GG. Unless we have our nut draw which kills them on turn 1 through duress/therapy.

Other than that it's a classic combo-with-counters vs combo-with-discard. Do you bring in shit like krosan grip and Pithing needle vs sneaky show? No.

Like Phazonmutant mentions Xantid Swarm is fine tech against them but I won't board in much else (running Ad Nauseam in the sideboard, that comes in too)

nevilshute, phazonmutant, thank you very much!

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Originally Posted by OlegtheSuper

nevilshute, phazonmutant, thank you very much!

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I agree with what these guys are saying and think it touches on a general point to be careful about not over-SBing with Storm. On SCG coverage I often see Decays and Chains against Delver decks and the like, and that strategy makes the deck incredibly inconsistent post-SB. Infect specifically is a great matchup if you utilize your Xantid Swarms and stick with the core gameplan. Don't be tilted if you lose to their god draws every now and then because that happens. In a lot of ways it's like the Sneak and Show matchup but with more temptations for boarding in questionable SB cards.

I tend to board in a couple of Decays / Chains against Infect, but that is mostly due to the fact that I don't often have Swarms in my sideboard and you want to be Ad Nauseam Tendrils against them, which is a 58 card deck. Xantid Swarms are preferable though and you should definitely board them in if you have them, as you should against every other Force of Will combo deck; they really shine in these matchups.

I'm a pretty big fan of Chain of Vapor. It's probably the card I side in against the most decks because it's so versatile. Also, it can enable threshold and up storm count at the same time by targeting our own mana artifacts. I even thought about maindecking a copy because Preordain and (sometimes) Duress haven't done me a whole lot of good and I often side them out.

I've not had a lot of success with Xantid, but I have a feeling that's mostly because I've only got one, so it doesn't show up very often. It did win me a game once by baiting countermagic and upping the storm count.

I've been trying to cut back on green sideboard cards because of the threat of Wasteland. Currently not running either Xantid or Carpet, but I may throw in singletons. Anybody else been playing without either one? What are people running to replace them in the 'board?

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Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce

I've been trying to cut back on green sideboard cards because of the threat of Wasteland. Currently not running either Xantid or Carpet, but I may throw in singletons. Anybody else been playing without either one? What are people running to replace them in the 'board?

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Why are you cutting green cards that you don't want against decks with Wasteland because of Wasteland?

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Originally Posted by Jonathan Alexander

Why are you cutting green cards that you don't want against decks with Wasteland because of Wasteland?

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In before: "Xantid Swarm is good against Delver/Tempo"

**Gets on Soapbox**

This may come off as preachy but I think it can still be a good post for some folks, especially "newer" players to Storm. I've been playing Storm for 9 months and I recently bought the deck on MTGO as well. I was playing a Daily last night and ran into a TES matchup in which I won 2-0. I was basically called a lucksack by the opponent and I wanted to riff on this and how instead of blaming others to take a step back and try to learn and improve our game.

Now, first of all, the Storm mirror can be a major coin flip. A lot of it boils down to who draws better/who is faster. Fortunately for us, TES dropping 10-12 goblins T2 doesn't matter as it gives us two more turns to go off. Now, in this particular matchup I think my opponent was unwise with their discard decisions (multiple times) and ultimately it cost him the match. For example, G2 he blind therapies and names Duress Turn 1, I have two Cabal Therapy in my hand--whoops (I still think naming Tutor or LED is better than naming discard in the dark). So of course he blames me for his miss. This type of stuff happens--we've been there. I think he made a couple other mistakes as well but I won't get into them. Fact of the matter is I've been there, too. The attitude of "Oh man, what a lucky piece of garbage..." Sometimes we just can't help it if an opponent rips Chalice of the top after we Probe them. It happens. It's Magic.

Too often we believe we are always making the correct play and if anything goes wrong--it must be that we are so unlucky or that our opponent is just lucky. When really, there are likely a couple moments, if not more, during a match where a better decision needed to be made and we paid the price for it.

I goldfish this deck a lot on my own, against various decks I've proxied so I can learn more about the deck and to understand certain lines of play. MTGO has certainly provided me even more of a solid testing ground--even in the tournie practice room. I am learning a ton and I am starting to notice my blunders with more clarity now--which is great, because that means there is a learning process going on.

I suppose the short winded point of this post would be for all of us, especially those of us still new to this deck, to take a deep breath and realize that this deck can be difficult to play and it takes a lot of practice and patience to start getting good results. Try not to blame your opponent for every loss--try and think about if a different choice or line would've improved your chances.

We're not immune to mistakes--it's a matter of limiting them. And that's in our control.

Keep stormin'!

Great points, BeardTron. Getting frustrated at your opponent and variance can blind yourself from becoming better with Storm. I know some people will disagree with this, but I think the outcome of the Storm "mirror" (ANT/TES) is MUCH more in your control than people give it credit for. Sure, there are a few variance subgames that can destroy you like turn 1 hand, Probe/Therapy 3 of your cards, etc, but overall your list and in-game decisions matter a ton. I am happy to play the Storm mirror online and in tournaments.

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Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7

Great points, BeardTron. Getting frustrated at your opponent and variance can blind yourself from becoming better with Storm. I know some people will disagree with this, but I think the outcome of the Storm "mirror" (ANT/TES) is MUCH more in your control than people give it credit for. Sure, there are a few variance subgames that can destroy you like turn 1 hand, Probe/Therapy 3 of your cards, etc, but overall your list and in-game decisions matter a ton. I am happy to play the Storm mirror online and in tournaments.

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Totally agreed. I hear a lot of people on this board say they hate the storm mirror. I get that the first couple of turns are extremely draw dependent, but if neither person has an unbelievable draw, the discard and sequencing matters a ton. Also postboard when most decks have things like Surgical and Flusterstorm, there are ways to interact turn 0/1, so the player better able to evaluate how cautiously to play and when to seize the initiative generally wins. If it were just a coin-flip, then I wouldn't be 80%+ in the mirror over dozens of matches.