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@ Arianrhod, Great brewing and equally awesome results! Been away since we last chat on the Scapewish days as I was aiming for Judge L2. Got L2 a year ago and judging PPTQ, RPTQ & GPs took a lot of my time from competitive Legacy magic.
Anyways a question, how do we board again ANT and Show & Tell variants? Seems like we hinging a lot of the strength of our blind therapies?:really:
Out: Decays, dorky creatures that don't provide a clock. Path/spotremoval gets cut against Storm. Deed gets cut against Show & Tell but stays in against Storm for Empty/MentorQuote:
Originally Posted by fireiced
In: Hand disruption, Extraction effects, Hatebears. Needle if we saw Sneak Attack or Griselbrand.
With the current build I'm using, I'd go:
S&T (assuming Sneak/Griselbrand/Emrakul):
-1 Primeval Titan
-1 Thragtusk
-2 Deed
-2 Punishing Fire
-2 Abrupt Decay
+2 Thoughtseize
+2 Slaughter Games
+2 Surgical Extraction
+2 To The Slaughter
Leaving Needle out because the list plays its own copies of Sneak Attack. Against Omni-tell, leave To The Slaughter out and put in Golgari Charm instead.
Against Storm:
-1 Primeval Titan
-1 Reclamation Sage
-2 Punishing Fire
-2 Abrupt Decay
+2 Thoughtseize
+2 Surgical Extraction
+2 Slaughter Games
Slaughter Games can be Lost Legacy if you're not in Red. To The Slaughter probably isn't necessary if you have Swords/Path, so can become Pithing Needle or Teeg/Containment Priest or something.
I think the key to getting Traverse to work is not using black. Flashback on Therapy taking a sorcery out of your graveyard is a big downside. In GU/x we have Perilous Research to sacrifice a permanent, to get 2 in the GY for Traverse which also opens up the Traverse/Snap/Traverse line which is slightly stronger than Traverse/EW/Traverse since it's a mana less.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
Perhaps a RUG build that could use a punishing fire engine (and maybe Crack the Earth) alongside the better grinding power of Traverse?
Black mana gives us Baleful Strix which is great for enabling Traverse, though. I wouldn't be surprised if a Traverse build ended up being in four colours.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
Strix is ok for enabling but it's not necessary. Architects of Will can be enabled with just blue (and just treated as a cantrip). I could see red being good here or I could see white being good... there's a lot of strong white cards these days that are just in need of some tutoring. I actually think Strix is sort of bad as an enabler because StP, DRS, Scavenging Ooze, Council's Judgment, and others are so effective at keeping it out of the GY to count as 2 types.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
I'm pretty skeptical of 4 color decks.
Red actually has some good Delirium enablers like Pyrite Spellbomb and Seal of Fire, in addition to Architects out of Blue. FoW and Daze are good enablers too as is Courser in Green.
But in green you have access to shardless agent who do basically the same job CA/delirium engineering than strix. And who's greatly stronger with traverse than gsz (obviously).
In blue, perilous research can be completed with read the runes which can be more polyvalent and definitely a great delirium friend
Read the Runes could be interesting, but I think it plays bad with Shardless Agent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulysse95
There are a surprising number of creative ways to hit delirium...you mention Seal of Fire, but Tarfire or the other Tribal cards could also help. I'm assuming that such a build would have even MORE one-ofs than usual just to diversify what gets into the grave.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
The payoff of tutoring non-green creatures (or any land) really has to be high in order to be worth the risk of being a lot weaker to graveyard-hating cards that everyone has in their side. Maybe all it takes is a dedicated BUG list with tons of card draw or advantage in order to help offset the loss of how steady GSZ is.
Tarfire is another one. Red splashes are easily able to provide artifacts, enchantments, and tribal which makes them pretty ideal for delirium. That gives you RG, but I kind of think blue is better than black here as the other color, because Cabal Therapy doesn't play well with delirium, and gaining blue gives you counterspells which also free pitch for instants.Quote:
Originally Posted by square_two
I have some experience with RUG Delver in Modern, which I played Traverse in, so that might be part of my bias here, and I have some sort of idea of what worked in that sort of build.
You still need to solve the enormous problems of Deathrite Shaman and Rest in Peace if you want to go down this road.
I don't think RIP is that much of an issue unless you're running a lot of other graveyard synergy.
As far as Deathrite goes, we have two options. Run more non creature/instant/sorcery/land cards - like Liliana of the Veil, Bitterblossom, Oaths and similar - or run a ton of DRS removal. A list with lots of copies of Punishing Fire and Abrupt Decays might be able to deal with Deathrite by just killing them repeatedly.
DRS is easy. Punishing Fire kills him as does Tarfire, Seal of Fire, and Spellbomb all of which you want to enable Delirium anyways.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
RIP is harder.
Would Keranos be a powerful enough finisher to grab with Traverse or would a Huntmaster be better? Part of me likes how compact the Huntmaster combo is, at 4 mana per turn over 2 turns. It's fairly easy to deploy.
T1 - Traverse, get Snapcaster, play Snapcaster, flashback Traverse, get Huntmaster of the Fells
T2 - Play Huntmaster of the Fells
3 bodies out of one card is usually enough to swing a game.
I picked up Crack the Earths last Monday because I was thinking of brainstorming a RG list, or perhaps Jund now that I have Groves and Lilis. I am interested in where this discussion goes. Hopefully non-blue since I don't have blue duals.
Just played the local legacy night. Easily my worst night in months, I thought I was above going on tilt, but apparently bad enough variance can still trigger it. I'm glad it didn't count towards the league.
Round 1 against Goblins. I lose 0-2. Lose game 1 to a T1 Rabblemaster, T2 Chalice for 2
Round 2 against Shardless BUG. Game 1 I lost to 4 resolved Ancestral Visions by turn 7 or 8, including 2 that resolved off blind flips on Shardless Agent. I very nearly kept up on cards, but Visions #4 proved to be too much. Game 2 went for 35 minutes roughly, it started on me keeping a mulligan to 3, and I managed to grind it out. My version is definitely worse against Shardless than the typical Junk list but I can still get there. Round 3 began with 53 seconds left on the clock, I had an amazing hand that could probably win on turn 4 or 5, but I only got to turn 3. 1-1-1
Round 3 was against Dragon Stompy. I lose 0-2.
Overall a pretty bad night at 1-5-1 in games. I would give more details but I got pretty frustrated with myself in round 1 because I knew I was making misplays in the games, but I couldn't seem to identify where I was doing so. That lead to me making other bad plays throughout the night and the whole thing ended with an opponent on the play in round 3 game 3 that opened Ancient Tomb, Simian Spirit Guide, Magus of the Moon... to my Windswept Heath, Verdant Catacombs, Noble Hierarch, Deathrite Shaman, 2x Green Sun's Zenith, Plains. Pretty fitting end to the night.
I've been thinking today about this. Definitely interested in green/red here. I've thought of the Perilous Research route in RUG but when I went over it in my head this is how the theory worked out for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by MDHackbert
Cabal Therapy is usually worth 2.5 cards in my experience (doesn't always hit, but sometimes gets doubles). Then the flashback is also worth 2 cards off of a sacrificed Veteran. In the end it's a 4.5 card swing. Perilous Research though is only worth 4 cards. So the black advantage is greater than the blue advantage.
Also, I was thinking that Young Pyromancer could be key here. I'm still a fan of the low to the ground, high velocity builds. Therapy produces 2 tokens to Researchs 1, and does so at a mana less. Also, black leaves open the option of Bob, which is amazing in these sorts of builds.
So, I was thinking something focused on getting the best Therapys possible. Probably around the range of 24 lands, 18 creatures 19 others. The downside to this is that 19 spells isn't really enough to get Pyromancer value. So I was thinking the Punishing Fire engine could augment it. This is what I have for a first draft, still needs more work. And as you can see in the list it's in my style of low cost/high velocity over high cost beaters.
Something like this
Land 24
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Taiga
3 Forest
2 Mountain
1 Swamp
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
Creatures 18
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
3 Young Pyromancer
3 Dark Confidant
1 Eternal Witness
1 Dualcaster Mage
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Tireless Tracker
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
Spells 19
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Crack the Earth
2 Tarfire
2 Seal of Fire
2 Pyrite Spellbomb
4 Sensei's Divining Top
The only issue is, it feels like it needs some Abrupt Decay somewhere in there and 4 Gitaxian Probes would be nice.
Anytime I see Pyrite, it makes me yearn for Bomberman. Transforming into a different GY strategy is usually not advisable though.
Currently running Arianrhod's 61 mb Sneaky Fit list. Where do you get the space for 1 off MB Reclamation Sage? I have also cut the 4th Sneak Attack to go down to 60 cards, not very sure if this is the correct cut.:really:Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
I am still on the Diabolic Edit / Dreadbore 1:1 split instead of TTS simply due to casting cost. I want to pay for Daze vs Reanimator.
@Brael: Grove of the Burnwillows, but no Punishing Fire? Seems like an odd choice. You could drop down to 21/22 land and slot in 2/3 Gitaxian Probe. And perhaps drop Crack the Earth for Probe no. 3/4. The list is incredibly light on meat though.
Oh, and (to make things worse) Traverse seems like a very fun card to loop around w/ Meren + Eternal Witness + sac outlet. Or, you know, Meren + Eternal Witness + Perilous Research. Also seems like a neat little loop.
I'm on 61 cards, and the cut I made is Meren I believe. Griselbrand becomes a Woodland Bellower, and I think I'm running one fewer Punishing Fire to make room for the second Fierce Empath.Quote:
Originally Posted by fireiced
I find Reanimator usually boards Daze out against us. I like TTS because instant speed is so good against Infect and Lands, I can see the argument for Diabolic Edict though.
From my (limited compared to yours) experience I have found sidisi lacklustre: against fast decks he is slow, otherwise he has a nice effect (of course) but that is quite fragile: removal in response to his ability is a blowout, and its not like jund has a broad board presence. Maybe I'm playing the deck wrong? I'm still new to playing with mountains
I haven't played enough with Sidisi to judge her well. She's a fifth copy of Sneak Attack which is pretty good, but she's definitely in the 3 or so cards I would drop first.
His new breast friends!Quote:
Originally Posted by rubblekill
Sorry, couldn't resist.
For now I haven't been particularly impressed by Sidisi and Meren. Sidisi for the reason I have written above, and meren because I don't like her that much in a field full of DRS (nice format: counterbalance vs DRS + AD).
I'm gonna play with them more to gain some more experience with the deck and to understand your deck building decisions, before deciding that I'm so smarter than you guys that I'm gonna modify the list you have brewed and I have been playing for only a couple of days.
In case it was needed (it wasn't): /s
I have found that Meren is really strong against Shardless Sultai. She is difficult for them to remove and can be managed to combat an active Liliana.Quote:
Originally Posted by rubblekill
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Oh, I know that very well, when she is good she is the best card ever. I played her a lot.Quote:
Originally Posted by AtticusBlaqk
The problem is the inconsistency of a 4 mana legend that relies on the absence from the board of a 1 mana card. A 1 mana dork that is prevalent in the format and makes me not want to play meren.
I know that we have plenty of tools to remove drs, but if I have to rely on another card to gain value from meren, at that point I'd rather play a more impactful card.
Against shardless, for example, we can play cards that say "I win immediately if I resolve" like Sigarda or the underplayed Elspeth sun's champion.
In jund I like her even less because there's no recurring of rhinos potential.
Anyways this is merely my opinion, there are people more experienced than me that will say otherwise
And it's the only deck she is REALLY good aginst. That she is a legendary creture sucks...Quote:
Originally Posted by AtticusBlaqk
She is fine against eldrazi and non-grixis delver. She "can" be awesome against bug decks, but in an inconsistent fashion that really detracts a decent amount of value from a 4 cmc legendQuote:
Originally Posted by Ganfar
My 2c
I agree on Meren, she's not as good as I had hoped she would be. Shardless is seeing less and less play at the moment, which is where she shines.
Eldrazi just goes over her or Dismemebrs her. Miracles plays StP or Terminus on all your guys so she has very little to get back, if anything. Delver decks, you don't need the value, you just need to survive by killing everything and start landing bombs whatever they are. Combo obviously doesn't give a shit. Lands doesn't give a shit. DnT just Karakas her.
I kind of agree...find myself siding Meren out a LOT. She is fabulous imo against Eldrazi but seems lackluster in many decks that either have Swords or DRS, and that is most decks. I might do my next league run with the 2 Thoughtseize in the main instead of Sidisi and Meren. Or maybe 2 Destructive Flow just for some spice. Thoughtseize definitely a better pick for combatting combo as well as the random stuff I'm seeing online (lot of Depths decks lately), but I really do relish the idea of turn 2 Flow against some decks.
/shrug. I've said before, and I'll re-state: Meren and Sidisi have both been very good for me. Sidisi is probably more cuttable than Meren, but I'm not in any hurry to remove either of them from the deck. I acknowledge and accept that they may not be optimal card selections for everyone. It could very well be that I'm playing the deck in such a way that I leverage more value out of these cards than the average pilot (with regards to these specific cards, not saying that I am an above average pilot in general). As I've previously said, I'm the type of player who plays to Yawg Will in vintage. I set up ten turns in advance for lines of play that will eventually win the game, which is what you basically have to do if you want Meren to be good. You can't just toss her out into play and expect her to take the game over. She needs setup and careful planning, but she rewards you by being an entire plan unto herself. There are few other cards in all of NicFitdom that reward you on the raw power level that Meren is capable of wielding -- you just need to shape your game around her existence.
Again, that does not mean that running Meren is optimal for all pilots. Individual playstyle matters a lot here -- if you feel that you can get more value out of using the Meren (or Sidisi) slot for different card choices, then by all means, don't let me stop you. But, equally, don't be surprised when I continue to play and post results with these cards.
E: something I'd like to tack on and add about Meren vs DRS: if the DRS deck is using time and resources combatting Meren, that's time and resources they aren't using on just flat killing you. I'd sooner they gain 6 than we lose 6. This is ESPECIALLY true in the Sneak versions of Nic Fit, because all we really need is time. If they spend time worrying about Meren instead of actively trying to kill us, that gives us multiple more draw steps to find something obscene to do to dig out of whatever hole we're in (or to just close the game).
Whoops, wrote that late at night. I meant to have punishing fire in there. Not sure how I missed that. The main idea I was looking for was Punishing Fire to fuel Pyromancer, and the Nic Fit engine to provide the mana for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Something more like
Land 23
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Taiga
3 Forest
2 Mountain
1 Swamp
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
Creatures 17
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
3 Young Pyromancer
3 Dark Confidant
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Tireless Tracker
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
Spells 21
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Pyrite Spellbomb
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Punishing Fire
4 Gitaxian Probe
I agree it seems light though, there's too many different engines competing for space. CA, Delirium, Punishing Fire, Mana, I'm not sure there's room for all. I've found mixing 3 different packages seems to be the maximum and this is using 4.
thank god. I bought meren a couple of weeks ago and expected a lot but I am somehow disappointed.
I consider to replace her by Nissa, vastwood seer.
I tried to find a discussion abt her but without success, did u try her? is she worth to consider?
I am not on sneak fit but playing the flwing:
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Eternal Witness
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth OR Nissa, Vastwood Seer
2 Tireless Tracker
2 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Thragtusk
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Path to Exile
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Painful Truths
1 Vindicate
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sorin, Lord of Inistrad
1 Garruk Relentless
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
thanks a lot.
Exactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
Your curve is low enough that you can probably drop the STE or one of the Veteran Explorers. I'd keep STE if you're playing Meren, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by cherson
Nissa is a good lategame CA engine, but she does have the downside of being vulnerable to Abrupt Decay. She's much better against Miracles than Meren and much worse again Shardless. It depends on what you're seeing a lot of in your metagame to be honest.
It may also be worth trying out Nissa, Vital Force in that slot.
Meren has good matchups and bad matchups.Quote:
Originally Posted by cherson
In the one game I won from the disaster my tournament was last night, it was against Shardless BUG on a mulligan to 3, through my opponent resolving 3 or 4 Ancestral Visions (so I basically started the game down 16 cards). I won because Meren is a hell of a card. It's great at getting your opponent to expend resources. Meren alone forced 3 Toxic Deluges for 4 (got her back afterwards with Volraths), and gave me infinite DRS's, which are important in the BUG matchup. DRS superiority is one of the ways you win, and she killed Jace's and Lilianas (I feel I should plug Cavern here again, that's how Meren always resolved).
The weakness of Meren is against Exile based removal, I think it's reasonable to sideboard her out in those matchups (D&T, Miracles, etc) but against the non StP decks she's an all star.
Forgot this part. I'm not a fan of 4 color decks, especially here where there's not enough slots to go around as is. Between Pyromancer and Probe there's just a higher ceiling on Cabal Therapy than Perilous Research. I do like the idea of the loop, but there's a more efficient one:Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Traverse, Snapcaster/Eternal Witness
Traverse, Huntmaster of the Fells
Note you can also get tricky with Traverse/Eternal Witness/Traverse/Volrath's Stronghold
I'm not sure the slots exist for your idea, atleast not in this build.
Traverse into 2 towers for an Abbot of Keral Keep seems like a nice source of CA/beats, but I'm not really sure how to make it happen.
Lol, that must have pissed off your opponent. Makes me want to get a Stronghold though. And I still have to get my Library. Dammit! You might just force me to go back up to 22 land (but what to cut. I mean, w/ Stronghold even Diabolic Intent gains more value. I guess the most likely candidate would be Phyrexian Tower #2). And I'm not doing 61 cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
Probably not. When it comes to Meren, I tend to look through my list and see what kind of silly loops I can come up with (and in what situations they might come in handy). I don't specifically build for it, but do like to know what's there. Remembering you can loop a Pernicious Deed for X = 3 can be quite a gamebreaker, vs. D&T for instance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
I'm becoming less and less of a tower fan by the day, it's just not all that good in the builds I play. And yes, my opponent was pissed, he dropped as soon as the round was over, it probably didn't help matters that he had an active DRS with me at 2 at the point I turned the corner, but he couldn't kill me because my own DRS kept it in check.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Stronghold is an all star.
I've got 2 Libraries, I'm going to get 2 more at some point. I expect SDT to see a ban some day, and if that happens, Library becomes really important to the deck (and also probably a lot more expensive).
Legacy newbie here, does anyone still run the Junk version?
I only recently built it and brought it to a tourney and it was a blast to play. I have a complete list sans duals which I can get to borrow for tournaments. Buying into them is a big investment though so I has to ask: Are the junk builds now inferior to the sneak builds? I notice that I have trouble closing out games with junk even after controlling the board, but what bugs me is the free wins that junk gets versus decks like AnT that gets shut down by gaddock which sneak can't (doesn't?) run.
Junk is still the most played version. Sneak is getting a lot of discussion here but there's still only 5-6 people discussing it, I bet most aren't even aware Sneak Fit is a thing yet. I don't think Junk is inferior to Sneak at all, Sneak is just something different.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hodgkins
@Echelon, did you see this recent article (Nov 4th) about 60 versus 61 cards?Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?p=593