[Deck] Goblins

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Originally Posted by Sasan

Thanks. I will follow your advice. But I think I will go with two relics as I have many RUG /Canadian Decks in my meta.

But Chalice will harm my lackey and aether? and chalice is not good against show and tell decks but great against reanimator and storm. thorn of amethyst is less favorable against storm and reanimator but it slows them down and it is ok against show and tell. so it is perhaps better overall for combo hate in the current meta.

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Chalice usually does not harm your vial and Lackey:
In stormcombo MUs you should side Vial out, since it's too slow. IF you are running Chalice and Vial alongside each other (e.g. against UR Delver, Burn etc. you shurely manage to FIRST resolve Vial and THEN play Chalice. However if that is not the case you can just play CHalice and see how it does it's job. In this case you will take out 50-70% of your opponent's deck, while only blocking your Vials.
Lackey can still be played out of Cavern, even under a Chalice @1.

If you want taxing effects (like from Thorn of Amethyst) you should really play Thalia instead, since she also provides a clock. My problem is this: When you cast Thorn of Amethyst you usually delay your opponent only by 1 or 2 turn. However casting THorn will ALWAYS cost you 1 turn, so at the end of the day you won't have gained speed advantage from Thorn.

About Canadian: The best thing you can do is having only Vial and Relic as non-creature spells after G1. Pyroblast and Chalice are nothing more than cute tricks. They just re-activate their countermagic, which you cann totally block by not giving them the opportunity to counter (Vial, Lackey, Caverns).

Although 3 thorns backing up 4 chalices against storm combo as they want to cast multiple spells in a round, can really buy you the time you need.

Against most storm combo, I almost think you would want to drop chalice @0 than @1.

@0 shuts off Lotus petal, LED, and Chrome mox, which are important if they try to go off with something like Ad Naseum vs a tutor chain. Shutting off LED also largely shuts off Infernal Tutor as a means to find an answer to the chalice at 1.

I don't think it is possible for them to ignore a chalice @0, but I think it is possible for them to ignore a chalice at 1.

But it also can depend a lot on which version they are running. Some people only run 1 chrome mox, where others run the full 12 artifacts.

0 also slows them down while not using any of your mana to advance your clock. If you have a double chalice opener, I think its fine to set the second one to 1, but I think the first is best at 0.

Everybody is playing Thalia in maindeck, but I don't find lowering goblin count acceptable for other matchups. Did anybody thought about Thalia for sideboard only?After all you need just one plateau in maindeck(or even sb) and caverns+vials to be able sneak it into play...

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Originally Posted by Yuri8

Everybody is playing Thalia in maindeck, but I don't find lowering goblin count acceptable for other matchups. Did anybody thought about Thalia for sideboard only?After all you need just one plateau in maindeck(or even sb) and caverns+vials to be able sneak it into play...

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I mentally put Thalia in the same place as Port. Both of them actually make our deck WORSE, if you just consider our deck as playing against Bob the golfish. There is a non-Zero amount of time that you will be colour-screwed by having Port in your deck instead of a basic mountain. With thalia, there is a cost associated with running two colours, excluding black/green splashes, and ringleadering into thalia (for the record, we draw 0.2 fewer goblins each time). The thing is, they disrupt the opponent much more than they disrupt us. And the matchups where Thalia is good are either difficult for us (Know and Tell, Storm) or popular (RUG). Against someone like Elves they are easy to SB out. Plus, is it *really* that important that you run 34 instead of 31 goblins?

In terms of putting them in the SB, there just isn't room. I think we want the following slots:
5-6 vs GY
3-4 vs blue
3-4 vs creatures
0-1 vs artifacts
0-4 vs storm

How would a SB that had 3 Thalia in it look?

The problem with saying something like Port/Thalia is bad because it is bad against bob the goldfish, is that you are actually playing against spike the gamer.

It really says nothing about the usefulness of either card.

I will have a playtest session against my Maverick friend tonight. My current version of the deck runs no Port (since I'm still buying them), so I decided to try something new: I cut a single Mountain for a single Ancient Tomb.

I'll let you know how that singleton went. In the world of ideas, I really like the possibilities of matroning at 2, krenko'ing at 3, but who knows how that will work.

Has anyone tried it yet? I'm always open for new ways of accelerating mana... and all those basics are making me think hard about how to innovate on our mana.

Hey guys, going to a tournament tomorrow with my goblin team. The list is as it follows:

Lands: 21
4 Cavern of Souls
5 Mountain
4 Arid Mesa
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port

Creatures:35

4 Goblin Lackey
1 Skirk Prospector
4 Goblin Piledriver
3 Mogg War Marshal
2 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
4 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Krenko, Mob Boss

Other Spells: 4

4x AEther Vial

Sideboard:
SB: 3 Pyrokinesis
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 Krenko, Mob Boss
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt


Any suggestions before I go there? My metagame is very aggro-oriented, but there's some combo too.
I don't know if I shoud add the 22nd land, although when I mull to 6 is because i don't have enough lands and a hand full of piledrivers and warchiefs. Also I only play 2 ports because I don't have more of them.

Nothing else, wish me luck for tomorrow!


PD. Sorry for my english, I know it's not perfect but i do what i can :tongue:

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Originally Posted by Kanadell~

list

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I'm guessing nobody answered because the list is fine.
Play carefully and take notes to write us a report!
Good luck.

Radkos Charm. Let's talk about it. It nukes graveyards, it kills artifacts, and it triggers a Lackey. That's right, it triggers Lackey, so it sorta seems tailor made for Goblins (except that it's not Tribal).
GY hate- 2 mana for an instant that wipes out a GY, but it seems a little slow against Dredge and a Reanimator, and it isn't the best against Goyf. So, yeah, it's a little slow and midrange for the power level of Legacy.
Artifact hate- 2 color Shatter. A'ight.
1 dmg per creature- This effect triggers Lackey, since lackey triggers when he deals Damage to a Player, NOT Combat Damage to an Opponent. So, that's a cute trick.

Here's the problem: Legacy is too good. A hyper flexible card like Radkos Charm still needs to be efficiently priced for all its effects to be playable. The question is, do you really want to spend 2 mana on each of these effects. 2 mana is the classic CMC for artifact destruction (shatter), so this effect better be more efficient than Shatter since Shatter isn't even played. But RB is less efficient than R1. The graveyard hate effect is the same a Tormod's Crypt, but RB is much less efficient than 0 for this effect. And the Lackey triggering effect? Well, Fire Whip has been around forever and doesn't get play, so the Charm's ability probably isn't too worthwhile either. Basically, the abilities on Radkos Charm are all potentially relevant, but they're not powerful enough for the CMC (not to mention the B splash). This card probably won't find a home in Goblin decks.

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Originally Posted by jrw1985

Radkos Charm.

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Agreed. Might have been playable if it cost hybrid mana. :b::r: won't cut it.

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Originally Posted by jrw1985

Radkos Charm. Let's talk about it. (...) This card probably won't find a home in Goblin decks.

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Radkos Charm has it's uses, but it says: each creature deals one damage to its owner. Having a horde of Goblin(-tokens) on the table would be awefull... The other two effects have their uses, but to me would not be worth the splash. So yes, it won't find a home in a Goblin-deck.

I still think we need a Qasali Pridemage-kind of Goblin, but it should be mono-red. Yeah, that would be nice :smile:

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Originally Posted by Chatto

Radkos Charm has it's uses, but it says: each creature deals one damage to its owner. Having a horde of Goblin(-tokens) on the table would be awefull... The other two effects have their uses, but to me would not be worth the splash. So yes, it won't find a home in a Goblin-deck.

I still think we need a Qasali Pridemage-kind of Goblin, but it should be mono-red. Yeah, that would be nice :smile:

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If we got a 1R Thalia Goblin...

Even if it was 1 red mana situations the triggering lackey with rakdos charm seems pretty bad.

You use a card to get a trigger that puts a card from your hand into play. It's like a conditional desparate ritual that pings you for 1-5 damage.

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Originally Posted by RaZe

If we got a 1R Thalia Goblin...

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I'd settle for just a Manic Vandal goblin.

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Originally Posted by Chatto

Radkos Charm has it's uses, but it says: each creature deals one damage to its owner. Having a horde of Goblin(-tokens) on the table would be awefull... The other two effects have their uses, but to me would not be worth the splash. So yes, it won't find a home in a Goblin-deck.

I still think we need a Qasali Pridemage-kind of Goblin, but it should be mono-red. Yeah, that would be nice :smile:

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So far Return to Ravnica covers only the guilds of Rakdos, Izzet, Golgari, Selesnija and Azorius. I don't believe we'll see a mono-red artifact goblin in a set like ravnica where it's all about splash colors. BUT I'd still hope for an upgrade of TSH in the block, whenever the Gruul guild appears.

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Originally Posted by BigBopper

BUT I'd still hope for an upgrade of TSH in the block, whenever the Gruul guild appears.

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I wouldn't get my hopes up too much. Gruul is one of the weaker color combinations.

I'd rather see a cheaper upgrade to Burning-Tree Shaman which deals 2 damage instead of 1.

I hadn't realized that the new charm triggered Lackey. That's actually nice.
It can sometimes nuke a grace, which could be useful against Canadian, Maverick, Academy Rector, and the usual suspects, it can sometimes Shatter something, which is useful against a lot of decks, and can sometimes be a ritual for 3-5 mana, which is not bad at all. Better than that: If we have Lackey we can trigger him on our opponents turn!!! That would be so awesome! Just have to see if the dmg is worth it.

I for one will test this card. Clearing up SB space both against artifacts and graveyard must be nice.

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Originally Posted by ScatmanX

I'm guessing nobody answered because the list is fine.
Play carefully and take notes to write us a report!
Good luck.

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Well, there were 5 rounds of swiss and I missed top8 losing to 2 Canadian, and won against Eva green, one random mill deck with archive trap and glimpse the unthinkable and Team America. I don't know how am I supposed to beat Canadian, because everything I played was countered, destroyed or just stifled while delvers and mongooses ran over me.

Is the canadian matchup that bad? what can we do to improve it?

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Originally Posted by Kanadell~

Well, there were 5 rounds of swiss and I missed top8 losing to 2 Canadian, and won against Eva green, one random mill deck with archive trap and glimpse the unthinkable and Team America. I don't know how am I supposed to beat Canadian, because everything I played was countered, destroyed or just stifled while delvers and mongooses ran over me.

Is the canadian matchup that bad? what can we do to improve it?

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If they run Stifle, it's a little worse than normal.
Against them, we came to the conclusion that Vial is our best card, followed by Caverns and Mogg Warmarchall. Be careful when you play them.
Don't be afraid to trade 2-3 guys with 1 of theirs. They have only a few dudes, and the lategame is ours.

Don't know how I'd side with your list against them. Probably bring in the Chalices and Krenko for Shooter, Scrapper, and 3 Piledrivers.
Playtest some more to find out how to play it properly. It is not an easy matchup, and the slightest mistake can cost you the game there.